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2012-07-23 10:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
DanielG - 2012-07-23 10:53 AM
powerman - 2012-07-23 11:38 AM
Aarondb4 - 2012-07-23 9:32 AM

Big Appa - 2012-07-23 9:17 AM Sorry for the rant but I really hate how people call any semi-auto rifle an assault rifle. Unless they are full auto I wouldn't call them an assault rifle that is just ignorant and for media headlines IMO. [/rant]  

 

Agreed, and sorry but banning 100 round magazines will do nothing to stop someone like this from obtaining one. With four months of known planning time he would have plenty of ways to get a hold of an illegal magazine. 

Ya, the absurdity of tens of thousands of pre ban mags.... but really, that is like one little thing that can help. The 10 round mag was silly. What ever the gun can do... 15, 9s can be 17.... but extended 30/45/100 round mags? You just don't need them. I mean you really don't. Yes you can tape two together and be pretty quick. If they do ban hi cap mags again... at least do not allow the sale of pre bans... or just don't do it at all. The last ban was 100% ineffective.

I'm kinda glad the guy had a 100 round magazine. Just think if he weren't allowed to and only had magazines that worked. He wouldn't have had the jam and more people may very well have died. The guy in UT had his firearm taken away from him because it had an extended magazine that allowed an onlooker to grab it and wrest the gun away. Good thing in both cases that higher than standard capacity magazines were used!

that's a dam good point, and very ironic.  Most high capacity magazines are junk.

I never use high cap magazines for that very reason.  It's hard to find ones that work worth a crap because the spring can't deliver the proper tension throughout the whole range of the magazine.



2012-07-23 11:51 AM
in reply to: #4325377

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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
mr2tony - 2012-07-23 10:19 AM

mrbbrad - 2012-07-22 12:27 PM

I am saddened by all the calls for violent vengeance, but I'm not surprised and that saddens me even more.


I agree. It's very sad. We're better than societies that allow torture, we're beyond that. Or we're supposed to be.

I'm torn on the death penalty. I believed that it was the only way to get rid of these monsters but now I think I agree that letting them rot in prison and think about what they did in isolation for, oh, 50 or 60 years, is a way better punishment. Government-sponsored torture isn't the answer.


Yes it is better punishment. But we pay to keep him alive.
2012-07-23 12:15 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
DanielG - 2012-07-23 9:53 AM
powerman - 2012-07-23 11:38 AM
Aarondb4 - 2012-07-23 9:32 AM

Big Appa - 2012-07-23 9:17 AM Sorry for the rant but I really hate how people call any semi-auto rifle an assault rifle. Unless they are full auto I wouldn't call them an assault rifle that is just ignorant and for media headlines IMO. [/rant]  

 

Agreed, and sorry but banning 100 round magazines will do nothing to stop someone like this from obtaining one. With four months of known planning time he would have plenty of ways to get a hold of an illegal magazine. 

Ya, the absurdity of tens of thousands of pre ban mags.... but really, that is like one little thing that can help. The 10 round mag was silly. What ever the gun can do... 15, 9s can be 17.... but extended 30/45/100 round mags? You just don't need them. I mean you really don't. Yes you can tape two together and be pretty quick. If they do ban hi cap mags again... at least do not allow the sale of pre bans... or just don't do it at all. The last ban was 100% ineffective.

I'm kinda glad the guy had a 100 round magazine. Just think if he weren't allowed to and only had magazines that worked. He wouldn't have had the jam and more people may very well have died. The guy in UT had his firearm taken away from him because it had an extended magazine that allowed an onlooker to grab it and wrest the gun away. Good thing in both cases that higher than standard capacity magazines were used!

I never knew that...never bought a 100 round mag.

And trust me, I realize most laws do nothing to stop what they intend. Even a background check. But we don't have to make it easy either.... yet criminals can can get anything black market... and perfectly legitimate adults can follow all the rules and go completely bat @#@% crazy and shoot up a theater.

2012-07-23 12:55 PM
in reply to: #4321699

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I live on the Denver-Aurora border, I work in Aurora on the same campus where the shooter studied.  I drive by that theater every day.  My colleagues in the pediatric ED took care of all the patients that came in, adult or pediatric, and have to deal with not having saved them all.  This is a horrible tragedy for our community.  I have no idea what would possibly possess this young man to commit this crime; that's the job for law enforcement and potentially forensic psychiatrists.  I don't think any of us can know what impact more gun restrictions, or fewer, would have had on this case.  I will leave his punishment up to the judicial system, and the jury, though I do think our country's refusal to use torture as a method of punishment has been the right call.  Nothing will bring these 12 people back. 

What I do know is that there were astounding acts of bravery and heroism that happened that night.  You all have spent 4 pages arguing about whether he should be tortured, guns should be banned, kids should be out late at night in theaters, with little to no mention of the heroes, or those who lost their lives.  Matt McQuinn, Jonathan Blunk, and Alex Teves all died shielding their girlfriends from the gunman.  Stephanie Davis stayed in the theater to help her shot friend rather than running for her life.  Josh Nowlan, an Iraq war veteran, shielded friends from the gunman and was shot twice. Multiple firemen and investigators risked their lives to disarm the apartment.

I would much rather see us spend time discussing how extreme situations can inspire people to do incredible things.

2012-07-23 12:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
momandmd - 2012-07-23 12:55 PM

I live on the Denver-Aurora border, I work in Aurora on the same campus where the shooter studied.  I drive by that theater every day.  My colleagues in the pediatric ED took care of all the patients that came in, adult or pediatric, and have to deal with not having saved them all.  This is a horrible tragedy for our community.  I have no idea what would possibly possess this young man to commit this crime; that's the job for law enforcement and potentially forensic psychiatrists.  I don't think any of us can know what impact more gun restrictions, or fewer, would have had on this case.  I will leave his punishment up to the judicial system, and the jury, though I do think our country's refusal to use torture as a method of punishment has been the right call.  Nothing will bring these 12 people back. 

What I do know is that there were astounding acts of bravery and heroism that happened that night.  You all have spent 4 pages arguing about whether he should be tortured, guns should be banned, kids should be out late at night in theaters, with little to no mention of the heroes, or those who lost their lives.  Matt McQuinn, Jonathan Blunk, and Alex Teves all died shielding their girlfriends from the gunman.  Stephanie Davis stayed in the theater to help her shot friend rather than running for her life.  Josh Nowlan, an Iraq war veteran, shielded friends from the gunman and was shot twice. Multiple firemen and investigators risked their lives to disarm the apartment.

I would much rather see us spend time discussing how extreme situations can inspire people to do incredible things.



I would too! Unfortunately, the picture of that nut is all over the front page of Yahoo and MSN... versus the HEROES being all over the front page. I was happy to see the article about the guy shielding his girlfriend up on the front page, and I read it immediately.

The people who were hurt, killed, and who saved others need to be on the front page. That nut job needs to be removed completely.

2012-07-24 4:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting

mr2tony - 2012-07-23 9:19 AM
mrbbrad - 2012-07-22 12:27 PM I am saddened by all the calls for violent vengeance, but I'm not surprised and that saddens me even more.
I agree. It's very sad. We're better than societies that allow torture, we're beyond that. Or we're supposed to be. I'm torn on the death penalty. I believed that it was the only way to get rid of these monsters but now I think I agree that letting them rot in prison and think about what they did in isolation for, oh, 50 or 60 years, is a way better punishment. Government-sponsored torture isn't the answer.

I don't really think that someone who can commit such a horrendous act is going to spend one second, much less 60 years, "thinking about what he did." That would mean that person was capable of remorse and other normal human emotions. I'm not saying I fully support the death penalty instead in every case (but in this case, I do), but someone who dresses up like the Joker, collects ammo and guns for months and boobytraps his apartment before slaughtering innocent people is not going to ever fully understand what he's done. 

And as far as the insanity defense goes, can we just be done with that? Anyone who commits a crime like that is CLEARLY insane. Actually, anyone who murders anyone else is obvioulsy not right in the head. So what? Makes no difference to me. IMO, this should not be a valid defense.



2012-07-24 5:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
smarti - 2012-07-24 5:39 PM

mr2tony - 2012-07-23 9:19 AM
mrbbrad - 2012-07-22 12:27 PM I am saddened by all the calls for violent vengeance, but I'm not surprised and that saddens me even more.
I agree. It's very sad. We're better than societies that allow torture, we're beyond that. Or we're supposed to be. I'm torn on the death penalty. I believed that it was the only way to get rid of these monsters but now I think I agree that letting them rot in prison and think about what they did in isolation for, oh, 50 or 60 years, is a way better punishment. Government-sponsored torture isn't the answer.

I don't really think that someone who can commit such a horrendous act is going to spend one second, much less 60 years, "thinking about what he did." That would mean that person was capable of remorse and other normal human emotions. I'm not saying I fully support the death penalty instead in every case (but in this case, I do), but someone who dresses up like the Joker, collects ammo and guns for months and boobytraps his apartment before slaughtering innocent people is not going to ever fully understand what he's done. 

And as far as the insanity defense goes, can we just be done with that? Anyone who commits a crime like that is CLEARLY insane. Actually, anyone who murders anyone else is obvioulsy not right in the head. So what? Makes no difference to me. IMO, this should not be a valid defense.

I think 99.999% of folks out there could come up with perfectly good excuses to murder another human being or other human beings, i.e. self-defense or defense of innocents.

It's the killing of defenseless innocents that is so heinous in this case.

btw, I wouldn't keep him alive hoping for him to feel guilt...I'd keep him alive expecting him to feel pain.  Not heartbreak or remorse, but physical discomfort with no relief granted in his (what I hope to be) many years on Earth.

   

2012-07-24 7:20 PM
in reply to: #4321699

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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/entertainment/post/2012/07/...

Just saw that Christian Bale visited Aurora and several victims. Two things 1) good for him and for the lawyers saying it was ok to do this. And 2) good for him going to the makeshift memorial as well. If they were at a midnight showing, they're obviously big fans.

I like him in movies generally, but I thought he was a schmuck ever since the Terminator blowup. But this puts him higher on the personal level than I had him originally.

2012-07-24 9:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
ecozenmama - 2012-07-23 10:08 AM

tuwood - 2012-07-23 9:56 AM
ChineseDemocracy - 2012-07-22 9:26 PM
KSH - 2012-07-22 9:03 PM
zed707 - 2012-07-22 4:45 PM

mrbbrad - 2012-07-22 12:27 PM I am saddened by all the calls for violent vengeance, but I'm not surprised and that saddens me even more.

I agree. I am strongly against the death penalty. We've had multiple threads on this over the years and this incident doesn't change my view--even if the victim was a friend or family member. 

Our criminal justice system is not perfect. I can't imagine how anyone who understands this would be pro-death penalty. A certain number of innocents, wrongly convicted and sentenced to death, and killed by the government is acceptable? NO! If you're wrongly convicted and sentenced to death, then tell me you're pro-death sentence. I bet not. 

And torture? I can't even believe this has been suggested. I'm also saddened. 

Right, it is not perfect. But in instances like this, where it is VERY OBVIOUS that the person is guilty... why are we going to use tax payers money on him staying alive? Although, I'm all for keeping him alive. Jail looks pretty darn miserable. Even though our jails are all plush compared to what goes on overseas.

I am 100% against the death penalty...but I never said I was 100% anti-"never-ending uncomfortable measures."  

The death penalty would be a heavenly thought to my "worst of the worst."  For those who would otherwise be sentenced to death, being kept alive in absolute, uncomfortable isolation, never to be heard from or seen again by another human soul seems appropriate to me.

 

I'm with you on this one.  I am 100% against the death penalty as well.

Losing your freedom is the most excruciating punishment imaginable and isolation within a prison in solitary is down right torture.  For those that say prison is a country club and not punishment have obviously never seen the other side of prison bars.  The death penalty is by far the lesser punishment and gives the person a ticket out.

Yeah I am against the death penalty, but I think death row is too solitary for him.  He killed a beautiful little girl, as well as other beautiful people who had a lot of life left.  I say throw him into the general population.  They will deal with him.  Even in prison they despise people who do anything to a child. Most of them have a warped concept of right and wrong, but let them deal with him.  

Sorry, but I am so angry over this.  I am even angrier that he had the signs and his mom stated they had the right person.... 


The mother is now claiming that when she was awakened at 5:45 by the reporter who asked her whether she was Arlene Holmes and if her son was James Holmes who lives in Aurora, Colorado. She replied, "Yes, you have the right person," referring to herself.
Given the degree to which the media is constantly tripping over its own feet trying to out-scoop one another, I'm inclined to agree with her account over that of the reporter.
2012-07-24 9:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

2012-07-24 10:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.



2012-07-24 10:14 PM
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jmk-brooklyn - 2012-07-24 8:55 PM  The mother is now claiming that when she was awakened at 5:45 by the reporter who asked her whether she was Arlene Holmes and if her son was James Holmes who lives in Aurora, Colorado. She replied, "Yes, you have the right person," referring to herself. Given the degree to which the media is constantly tripping over its own feet trying to out-scoop one another, I'm inclined to agree with her account over that of the reporter.

Sounds plausible. Certainly an entirely different meaning that what was reported.

2012-07-24 10:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
powerman - 2012-07-24 8:11 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.

My point was simply that while NOBODY deserves to be the victim of a violent crime, there are things we can do to help avoid being in that situation.  In this case, not letting/taking a 6 year old to a MIDNIGHT showing of a PG-13 movie would have saved her life.  Kinda like not walking in bad areas of town at night, running alone on deserted trails, skiing out of bounds w/o a beacon, etc.  Survival skills that don't guarantee a good outcome, but they may better your odds.  And as a parent, anything I can do to better my kids' odds - until they learn the skills - is a good thing.

2012-07-24 11:05 PM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
velcromom - 2012-07-24 9:51 PM
powerman - 2012-07-24 8:11 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.

My point was simply that while NOBODY deserves to be the victim of a violent crime, there are things we can do to help avoid being in that situation.  In this case, not letting/taking a 6 year old to a MIDNIGHT showing of a PG-13 movie would have saved her life.  Kinda like not walking in bad areas of town at night, running alone on deserted trails, skiing out of bounds w/o a beacon, etc.  Survival skills that don't guarantee a good outcome, but they may better your odds.  And as a parent, anything I can do to better my kids' odds - until they learn the skills - is a good thing.

I'm sorry, that is ridiculous. All those activities you mentioned have an expectation of risk that come with them... nobody has any expectation of possibly getting shot at a movie theater in a mass shooting after 10:00pm and therefore might not want to take their kid there. Come on.

Had the gun man not started shooting people, you would have never known, and the child would be alive... perhaps sleepy.... but probably healthy and happy.

2012-07-25 12:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
velcromom - 2012-07-24 9:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

 

C'mon dude.....we have taken our kids to late movies...they sleep.  Our children are too old now, but we NEVER left them with a babysitter. Don't say it...because we never did...we missed alot of engagements over the years, but we're not sorry about anything we missed.  We either didn't go out or we took them with us.  They weren't exposed to anything they shouldn't have been exposed to.

A complete lunatic moron walked into a crowded theater and shot 70 people....it says NOTHING about parenting skills.

2012-07-25 12:16 AM
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DP again....my computer hates me

Edited by Left Brain 2012-07-25 12:25 AM


2012-07-25 12:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
powerman - 2012-07-25 12:05 AM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 9:51 PM
powerman - 2012-07-24 8:11 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.

My point was simply that while NOBODY deserves to be the victim of a violent crime, there are things we can do to help avoid being in that situation.  In this case, not letting/taking a 6 year old to a MIDNIGHT showing of a PG-13 movie would have saved her life.  Kinda like not walking in bad areas of town at night, running alone on deserted trails, skiing out of bounds w/o a beacon, etc.  Survival skills that don't guarantee a good outcome, but they may better your odds.  And as a parent, anything I can do to better my kids' odds - until they learn the skills - is a good thing.

I'm sorry, that is ridiculous. All those activities you mentioned have an expectation of risk that come with them... nobody has any expectation of possibly getting shot at a movie theater in a mass shooting after 10:00pm and therefore might not want to take their kid there. Come on.

Had the gun man not started shooting people, you would have never known, and the child would be alive... perhaps sleepy.... but probably healthy and happy.

First of all, do your kids wear helmets in their bubble?

My background: Husband, Father of 2, Police Officer and SWAT Team Operator ( I’ve also worked in correctional facilities).  My take on this is most easily explained by comparing our society to Sheep, Sheep Dogs and Wolves. 

In this world there are Sheep, Sheep Dogs and Wolves.  The Sheep are the people who live in or at least want to live in some utopian bubble.  They want to live in a society where they can hide in the suburbia lifestyle without guns, the hassle of police driving through their neighborhoods enforcing minor laws when they should be out looking for the "real criminals".  They want to believe guns are bad and should be banned, because EVIL only comes around if you expose yourself to it.  This is wrong my friends - stay tuned. 

The Sheep Dogs are not only the Police, Military and Federal Police but ALSO the Good Samaritan CCW holder that lives next door, down the street or the father of your childs classmate.  Sheep Dogs like 99.999% of CCW holders lie in wait for that wolf who threatens his herd.  99.999% of people who apply for a CCW do so to protect their families and if given the chance YOUR family as well.  They do so to protect NOT harm. 

Wolves, well I guess this goes without saying .....their the bad guys. 

The moral of my story is this, eliminating 100rd magazines, semi-automatic rifles (which has already been explained are not Assault Rifles), handguns for the general public or CCW's will not stop these types of killers.  I totally agree with what someone stated earlier, thank god he used a high capacity magazine that jammed.   If he had been trained with smaller mag's like 10, 20 or 30 round ones this could have been MUCH worse, it only takes a second or two to reload.

WE, this includes both you and I, cannot avoid evil every day, week and year of our lives.  Sometimes the fight comes to us and when it slaps you in the face you better damn well be prepared to fight your way out of it.  Some fights cannot be avoided, they must be fought.  If you’re a sheep armed with only a cell phone you could find yourself in a defenseless position.  Now I'm not saying everyone should look like Rambow when headed out to dinner or the movies but next time you’re in a movie theatre, mall, cubicle, or even your own house for that matter, take a look around.  What would you do if a gunman walked in?  Would you run?  Where would you run to? Is there something you could hide behind to shield yourself, a child/spouse/neighbor? 

Is this crazy/paranoid?  Maybe. 

Could it keep me and my family alive?  Maybe.

Does it give me a better chance of surviving a bad situation?  Absolutely.

This shooting was very tragic.  So many people died only because they went to a movie-PERIOD.  That little girl died because she was being a typical innocent little girl on summer break.  Not because she has bad parents or parents who make bad decisions.  This could have happened at her neighborhood park while she was playing on the swings.  Believe it or not EVIL people don't come out because it gets dark.  EVIL people live amongst us every day of our lives.  No one will ever know what makes these people do what they do.  But there's one thing you can bet on....it CAN and WILL happen again.  And YOU might be the person looking down the barrel next time.  So my thoughts are this, if you’re against guns/CCW's etc that's your right and I totally respect your decision.  But if you’re the one in a situation like this next time you better pray to god the guy or girl next to you is one of those 99.999%'ers. 

Whether you accept it or not evil is amongst you every day of your life.  It may only be one guy out of millions but trust me he's there. 

Take a few minutes and look around:  find those exit signs, find those places to shield your family----because if it hits the fan before you do, you’re already out of time.

My prayers go out to the victims and their families. 

2012-07-25 12:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
m-mcclain - 2012-07-25 12:22 AM
powerman - 2012-07-25 12:05 AM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 9:51 PM
powerman - 2012-07-24 8:11 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.

My point was simply that while NOBODY deserves to be the victim of a violent crime, there are things we can do to help avoid being in that situation.  In this case, not letting/taking a 6 year old to a MIDNIGHT showing of a PG-13 movie would have saved her life.  Kinda like not walking in bad areas of town at night, running alone on deserted trails, skiing out of bounds w/o a beacon, etc.  Survival skills that don't guarantee a good outcome, but they may better your odds.  And as a parent, anything I can do to better my kids' odds - until they learn the skills - is a good thing.

I'm sorry, that is ridiculous. All those activities you mentioned have an expectation of risk that come with them... nobody has any expectation of possibly getting shot at a movie theater in a mass shooting after 10:00pm and therefore might not want to take their kid there. Come on.

Had the gun man not started shooting people, you would have never known, and the child would be alive... perhaps sleepy.... but probably healthy and happy.

First of all, do your kids wear helmets in their bubble?

My background: Husband, Father of 2, Police Officer and SWAT Team Operator ( I’ve also worked in correctional facilities).  My take on this is most easily explained by comparing our society to Sheep, Sheep Dogs and Wolves. 

In this world there are Sheep, Sheep Dogs and Wolves.  The Sheep are the people who live in or at least want to live in some utopian bubble.  They want to live in a society where they can hide in the suburbia lifestyle without guns, the hassle of police driving through their neighborhoods enforcing minor laws when they should be out looking for the "real criminals".  They want to believe guns are bad and should be banned, because EVIL only comes around if you expose yourself to it.  This is wrong my friends - stay tuned. 

The Sheep Dogs are not only the Police, Military and Federal Police but ALSO the Good Samaritan CCW holder that lives next door, down the street or the father of your childs classmate.  Sheep Dogs like 99.999% of CCW holders lie in wait for that wolf who threatens his herd.  99.999% of people who apply for a CCW do so to protect their families and if given the chance YOUR family as well.  They do so to protect NOT harm. 

Wolves, well I guess this goes without saying .....their the bad guys. 

The moral of my story is this, eliminating 100rd magazines, semi-automatic rifles (which has already been explained are not Assault Rifles), handguns for the general public or CCW's will not stop these types of killers.  I totally agree with what someone stated earlier, thank god he used a high capacity magazine that jammed.   If he had been trained with smaller mag's like 10, 20 or 30 round ones this could have been MUCH worse, it only takes a second or two to reload.

WE, this includes both you and I, cannot avoid evil every day, week and year of our lives.  Sometimes the fight comes to us and when it slaps you in the face you better damn well be prepared to fight your way out of it.  Some fights cannot be avoided, they must be fought.  If you’re a sheep armed with only a cell phone you could find yourself in a defenseless position.  Now I'm not saying everyone should look like Rambow when headed out to dinner or the movies but next time you’re in a movie theatre, mall, cubicle, or even your own house for that matter, take a look around.  What would you do if a gunman walked in?  Would you run?  Where would you run to? Is there something you could hide behind to shield yourself, a child/spouse/neighbor? 

Is this crazy/paranoid?  Maybe. 

Could it keep me and my family alive?  Maybe.

Does it give me a better chance of surviving a bad situation?  Absolutely.

This shooting was very tragic.  So many people died only because they went to a movie-PERIOD.  That little girl died because she was being a typical innocent little girl on summer break.  Not because she has bad parents or parents who make bad decisions.  This could have happened at her neighborhood park while she was playing on the swings.  Believe it or not EVIL people don't come out because it gets dark.  EVIL people live amongst us every day of our lives.  No one will ever know what makes these people do what they do.  But there's one thing you can bet on....it CAN and WILL happen again.  And YOU might be the person looking down the barrel next time.  So my thoughts are this, if you’re against guns/CCW's etc that's your right and I totally respect your decision.  But if you’re the one in a situation like this next time you better pray to god the guy or girl next to you is one of those 99.999%'ers. 

Whether you accept it or not evil is amongst you every day of your life.  It may only be one guy out of millions but trust me he's there. 

Take a few minutes and look around:  find those exit signs, find those places to shield your family----because if it hits the fan before you do, you’re already out of time.

My prayers go out to the victims and their families. 

 

Ah........sheep, sheep dogs, wolves.......I see you have had some training/readings with/of Col. Grossman.  

Nice. Laughing



Edited by Left Brain 2012-07-25 12:31 AM
2012-07-25 7:13 AM
in reply to: #4329048

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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
velcromom - 2012-07-24 11:51 PM
powerman - 2012-07-24 8:11 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.

My point was simply that while NOBODY deserves to be the victim of a violent crime, there are things we can do to help avoid being in that situation.  In this case, not letting/taking a 6 year old to a MIDNIGHT showing of a PG-13 movie would have saved her life.  Kinda like not walking in bad areas of town at night, running alone on deserted trails, skiing out of bounds w/o a beacon, etc.  Survival skills that don't guarantee a good outcome, but they may better your odds.  And as a parent, anything I can do to better my kids' odds - until they learn the skills - is a good thing.

whoever would have been sitting in that seat instead would have been shot.  it wouldn't have prevented anything.

i guess you think women at bars in tight dresses are asking to get raped, too?

2012-07-25 8:54 AM
in reply to: #4324273

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Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida
Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
tuwood - 2012-07-22 5:47 PM
annie - 2012-07-22 3:28 PM

He was wearing heavy duty protection so if you armed everyone in the theater it probably wouldn't make much of a difference in terms of death toll.

Well if you armed everyone, I think it would make a difference... Sorry just adding a little levity to a difficult situation.  

In all seriousness there is no way of knowing if it would have helped or made things worse.  

First a note about "Body Armor".  The US Military has developed some good body armor that can stop glancing shots and direct shots from far enough away called SAPI (Small Arms Protective Inserts).  The key words are Small Arms and Inserts.  They are plates in the front, in the back, and in the sides of the vest.  When I was out there the second time, we had a Junk Protector and shoulder protectors as well. 

If you're hit directly with a bullet in the SAPI, you have a 1:10 chance of walking away (or running behind some cover).  See video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iINTCDJuf_k

If you're hit up close, the plate is virtually useless.  In fact, the plates break if you drop them on the ground.  The vest portion of the vest is kevlar, but we trained to stab through it with a bayonet or KaBar.  It's hard to do, but it does cut through. 

The helmets now worn are good against frag or schrapnel, but there are plenty of head-shots that kill.  If it didn't kill, it'll snap your head back and knock you down.

I don't know what type of "body armor" he was wearing.  Several news outlets have interchanged body armor and tactical vests (which are used to store magazines and not bulletproof). I also don't know what kind of helmet he was wearing.  But one thing is sure.  You have gaps in that armor.  Shoot him in the legs and then get a head shot. 

Several Marines were killed in Iraq by a sniper who knew that he could shoot in the armpit where there was no armor and the bullet could find vitals or in the throat.  If he can hit those open spots from 100+ yards, an armed theater-goer could've used any firearm to shoot this turkey in the throat from a few feet away.

I say this because if any of you are in that situation and think you can do nothing, do something.  Grab a pen and stab him in the throat or something.  Don't let him stand there and mow you and your loved ones down.

As for the Magazine issue, I once discharged 240 rounds and set off 6 pyros in 2 minutes.  I had the M16 on single-shot with 29 round magazines (you leave 1 out of the 30 rd mags to prevent jams).  If you're fired-up, you can shoot pretty quick. I agree that the 100 rd mag probably saved some lives because anytime you have that big of a magazine and you're moving it (i.e. not on a mount like on-top of a vehicle) you'll jam.

Death Penalty- I used to be on the side of most conservatives.  But now, I'm 100% pro-life.  Mind you, that does not include troops ordered into combat or protecting your home or your family from imminent danger (or zombies).  But where you have an unarmed, restrained individual and you kill that person, that's hard to justify to me.  I understand why people feel that we shouldn't let these monsters roam, but it's my position that we will be judged on how we treat those who can't protect themselves.  Whether a monster or any other form of defenseless human life. 

2012-07-25 2:57 PM
in reply to: #4328996

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Denver CO
Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting

Are you actually trying to blame the mother of the child that was killed? Shame on you.



2012-07-25 3:35 PM
in reply to: #4329255

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Master
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Almaden Valley, San Jose, California
Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
mehaner - 2012-07-25 5:13 AM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 11:51 PM
powerman - 2012-07-24 8:11 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.

My point was simply that while NOBODY deserves to be the victim of a violent crime, there are things we can do to help avoid being in that situation.  In this case, not letting/taking a 6 year old to a MIDNIGHT showing of a PG-13 movie would have saved her life.  Kinda like not walking in bad areas of town at night, running alone on deserted trails, skiing out of bounds w/o a beacon, etc.  Survival skills that don't guarantee a good outcome, but they may better your odds.  And as a parent, anything I can do to better my kids' odds - until they learn the skills - is a good thing.

whoever would have been sitting in that seat instead would have been shot.  it wouldn't have prevented anything.

i guess you think women at bars in tight dresses are asking to get raped, too?

wow.

Either I wasn't making my point clear enough, or I'm in a real minority here.  Only ONE person to blame - the shooter.  I'm NOT blaming the mother.  I don't think ANY woman asks to get raped.  I'm not disputing anybody's right to go see a movie.  Life is a risk, I get it.  I take risks, but I usually measure them.  Obviously, I allow my kids to take risks - just by going to school, these days.

What I hope I'm doing is teaching them that there a situations that are better avoided.  i.e., in the bar scenario, stay with a trusted friend.

And as long as they are young, I'll do my best to keep them as safe as reasonably possible. Hopefully, so that they get the chance to grow up and make their own choices with their own families.

Parenting skills are often a matter of choices.  Many of us on this forum have different styles - and I shouldn't have sounded so judgemental in stating mine.  I'm sure I make choices that others would dissapprove.  My 6 y/o child would not have died in that theater, because he/she wouldn't have been at a movie at midnight, nor at a PG-13 movie at that age.  I'm very aware that this, or another madman, could have gone to a theater at 3:00 in the afternoon, and taken out a crowd of kids at Ice Age.  JUST AS HORRIFIC. And it could have been mine, then.

I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone, or made it sound like I felt that anybody else was at fault. Not my intention.



Edited by velcromom 2012-07-25 3:37 PM
2012-07-25 4:31 PM
in reply to: #4321699

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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting

I understand  the point you were making Velcromom...and I know you were not saying it was the parents fault.  Seems that on forums, email and such that that sometimes things get taken out of context.  Heck, even things said by our leaders get taken out of context.  Surprised 

FWIW...we would not take our 10 and 13 year olds go to a midnight movie.

2012-07-25 5:43 PM
in reply to: #4330366

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Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
velcromom - 2012-07-25 2:35 PM
mehaner - 2012-07-25 5:13 AM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 11:51 PM
powerman - 2012-07-24 8:11 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.

My point was simply that while NOBODY deserves to be the victim of a violent crime, there are things we can do to help avoid being in that situation.  In this case, not letting/taking a 6 year old to a MIDNIGHT showing of a PG-13 movie would have saved her life.  Kinda like not walking in bad areas of town at night, running alone on deserted trails, skiing out of bounds w/o a beacon, etc.  Survival skills that don't guarantee a good outcome, but they may better your odds.  And as a parent, anything I can do to better my kids' odds - until they learn the skills - is a good thing.

whoever would have been sitting in that seat instead would have been shot.  it wouldn't have prevented anything.

i guess you think women at bars in tight dresses are asking to get raped, too?

wow.

Either I wasn't making my point clear enough, or I'm in a real minority here.  Only ONE person to blame - the shooter.  I'm NOT blaming the mother.  I don't think ANY woman asks to get raped.  I'm not disputing anybody's right to go see a movie.  Life is a risk, I get it.  I take risks, but I usually measure them.  Obviously, I allow my kids to take risks - just by going to school, these days.

What I hope I'm doing is teaching them that there a situations that are better avoided.  i.e., in the bar scenario, stay with a trusted friend.

And as long as they are young, I'll do my best to keep them as safe as reasonably possible. Hopefully, so that they get the chance to grow up and make their own choices with their own families.

Parenting skills are often a matter of choices.  Many of us on this forum have different styles - and I shouldn't have sounded so judgemental in stating mine.  I'm sure I make choices that others would dissapprove.  My 6 y/o child would not have died in that theater, because he/she wouldn't have been at a movie at midnight, nor at a PG-13 movie at that age.  I'm very aware that this, or another madman, could have gone to a theater at 3:00 in the afternoon, and taken out a crowd of kids at Ice Age.  JUST AS HORRIFIC. And it could have been mine, then.

I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone, or made it sound like I felt that anybody else was at fault. Not my intention.

Just a small counter point. What if the family happened to live in the shooters apartment building and his booby trap had gone off as planned? Then staying home and in bed would have again resulted in the same situation. 

I won't blame the mom for taking her kid to see a midnight screening. I'm sure if you were to go see a midnight screening for a Harry Potter or Twilight movie, you might see a fair amount of children there. My kids won't be allowed to go because I go to bed at 9:30. Get off my lawn too.

2012-07-25 7:19 PM
in reply to: #4330586

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Master
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Almaden Valley, San Jose, California
Subject: RE: Colorado Theater Shooting
JoshR - 2012-07-25 3:43 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-25 2:35 PM
mehaner - 2012-07-25 5:13 AM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 11:51 PM
powerman - 2012-07-24 8:11 PM
velcromom - 2012-07-24 8:57 PM

Heartbreaking.  No real words I can find to imagine the pain families are feeling. A summertime movie premier - a good 'date night' or 'friend night' out.  A true tragedy.

Parenting skills, however, could have saved one of the 12 lives.  Who takes a 6 year old to a midnight showing of  PG-13 movie?  Should the lapse in parental judgement cost a life - goodness, no.  But if the mom was being responsible (and I think she's in ICU, more heartbreak for the family) the little girl would be sleeping in her own bed tonight.

I spend lots of time trying to teach my kids about being 'defensive', not putting themselves in a bad situation. Nobody asks, or deserves, to be a victim of a violent crime, but there are lifestyle decisions that one can make that will improve the odds......

Parenting skills are debatable... but that mom has absolutely ZERO blame as to why her child is dead. Her child is dead because a guy walked into a theater and started shooting people. End of story.

She might be to blame for keeping her child up too late... but that is usually not fatal.

My point was simply that while NOBODY deserves to be the victim of a violent crime, there are things we can do to help avoid being in that situation.  In this case, not letting/taking a 6 year old to a MIDNIGHT showing of a PG-13 movie would have saved her life.  Kinda like not walking in bad areas of town at night, running alone on deserted trails, skiing out of bounds w/o a beacon, etc.  Survival skills that don't guarantee a good outcome, but they may better your odds.  And as a parent, anything I can do to better my kids' odds - until they learn the skills - is a good thing.

whoever would have been sitting in that seat instead would have been shot.  it wouldn't have prevented anything.

i guess you think women at bars in tight dresses are asking to get raped, too?

wow.

Either I wasn't making my point clear enough, or I'm in a real minority here.  Only ONE person to blame - the shooter.  I'm NOT blaming the mother.  I don't think ANY woman asks to get raped.  I'm not disputing anybody's right to go see a movie.  Life is a risk, I get it.  I take risks, but I usually measure them.  Obviously, I allow my kids to take risks - just by going to school, these days.

What I hope I'm doing is teaching them that there a situations that are better avoided.  i.e., in the bar scenario, stay with a trusted friend.

And as long as they are young, I'll do my best to keep them as safe as reasonably possible. Hopefully, so that they get the chance to grow up and make their own choices with their own families.

Parenting skills are often a matter of choices.  Many of us on this forum have different styles - and I shouldn't have sounded so judgemental in stating mine.  I'm sure I make choices that others would dissapprove.  My 6 y/o child would not have died in that theater, because he/she wouldn't have been at a movie at midnight, nor at a PG-13 movie at that age.  I'm very aware that this, or another madman, could have gone to a theater at 3:00 in the afternoon, and taken out a crowd of kids at Ice Age.  JUST AS HORRIFIC. And it could have been mine, then.

I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone, or made it sound like I felt that anybody else was at fault. Not my intention.

Just a small counter point. What if the family happened to live in the shooters apartment building and his booby trap had gone off as planned? Then staying home and in bed would have again resulted in the same situation. 

I won't blame the mom for taking her kid to see a midnight screening. I'm sure if you were to go see a midnight screening for a Harry Potter or Twilight movie, you might see a fair amount of children there. My kids won't be allowed to go because I go to bed at 9:30. Get off my lawn too.

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