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2012-12-23 7:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened
KWDreamun - 2012-12-23 4:45 AM

Will, congratulations on the pregnancy!  It will change your life forever, for the better! 

X2


2012-12-23 7:43 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened

Jo63 - 2012-12-23 7:49 AM Man I go shopping for a day and Iam 4 pages behind.... I got a call from one of my sisters yesterday she just found out she has breast cancer her name is Margie, could you please send some prayers her way, she has an appointment Wednesday with a specialist to find out the details.

She'll be in my prayers Joanne.  Keep us up to speed as you can.

2012-12-23 8:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

Good morning Junkies.  All I can say is WOW.  I'm amazed at how fast this group has filled up.  Welcome to everyone!  Like I said in my bio that probably nobody read because it was boring...2013 is going to be a very exciting year.

I'm about to get on the trainer for a 45 min warmup for a longer run this morning, but I want to leave you with the following.  Please be patient with the father-figure lecture.

This is the holiday season and although some of us will be taking the next week off from training, some of us will still be out there on the roads running and cycling.  Remember that it is even less common to see people out exercising during this time of year.  Motorists and others are busy texting and talking on the phone.  They are distracted by the stress of the holidays and New Year coming up.  You need to make sure you are paying attention to everything around you.  Safety is a huge concern when you're on icy roads and I don't want to hear of anyone getting tagged by a car or slipping and pulling a muscle or even worse.  If a car is coming, it only takes you two seconds to jump into the shoulder to let him/her pass.  Do your best to protect yourself by wearing brightly colored clothing and sticking to roads that are less busy.  Be smart.

Okay...off the soap box.  Get out there if you can today.  Make the most of this Sunday.

2012-12-23 8:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened

Jo63 - 2012-12-23 7:49 AM Man I go shopping for a day and Iam 4 pages behind.... I got a call from one of my sisters yesterday she just found out she has breast cancer her name is Margie, could you please send some prayers her way, she has an appointment Wednesday with a specialist to find out the details.

Absolutely.  Margie is on the prayer list for sure.  You stay strong for her...we are here for you.

2012-12-23 8:41 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened
DirkP - 2012-12-23 7:30 AM
trigal38 - 2012-12-23 7:33 AM
bhargavs - 2012-12-22 9:40 PM
trigal38 - 2012-12-22 9:58 PM
strikyr - 2012-12-22 8:47 PM
trigal38 - 2012-12-22 8:43 PM

Spent some time working on my bike tonight. I changed out the rear tire and then tried to install my Garmin cadence monitor. I also signed up for and downloaded TrainerRoad. Sounds like I should be ready to go but NO. Seems TR does not pair with my HR monitor which is not a Garmin. My Garmin HR monitor died last spring and my husband replaced it with an Orion Pacific watch + monitor he found cheap online. Also I don't think I must have paired my Garmin 305 and the cadence monitor correctly because I was not getting any data from my watch. What I did get during the ride was my cadence # which was really very motivating and made me work harder than normal. I also liked how the program paused itself if I got off and kept track of time for each interval.

I'm assuming that I did not get any power numbers since TR did not recognize a heart rate? Otherwise I did not install the cadence monitor correctly and I'll have to start all over. But it did show me a cadence number so that is something!

Also, does anyone know if I have to buy a Garmin HR monitor for this all to work?

I'm not very patient with tech stuff but I'm forcing myself to learn how to do this myself. Well, with your help of courseWink.

 

Dina I took a quick look and mind you I am not expert but TR does support different types of HR monitors. I think as long as they are ANT+ TR will support them according to the website however they don't list all the ones that they specifically support. They only listed four manufactures Garmin being one of them and the infamous many more. Worse case you may be able to contact them ask.

Oh I bet this one I have is not ANT +. Thanks Tony for checking.

I had the same problem with my Polar heart rate monitor not being ANT+ compatible. You might have to consider a Garmin or some of the other brands like Timex, Wahoo etc. Here is a link to the ANT+ website - try selecting Heart rate Monitors under "categories" on the left side and it should give you all the compatible products out there. Hope this helps

http://www.thisisant.com/directory/?

 

I might as well just get the Garmin since I have the 305 anyway. Thanks!

I don't know anything about TR but it was mentioned earlier that the HR monitor needed to be ANT+ and the 305 is not, is it?  I had a 305 before I got the Mercedes (910XT) and it needed to be cradled to get data from it.  I did a few minutes of checking and I didn't see anything that said anything without ANT+ would work.

Sounds like the perfect excuse for me to update my Garmin.......

2012-12-23 8:56 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened
trigal38 - 2012-12-23 9:41 AM
DirkP - 2012-12-23 7:30 AM
trigal38 - 2012-12-23 7:33 AM
bhargavs - 2012-12-22 9:40 PM
trigal38 - 2012-12-22 9:58 PM
strikyr - 2012-12-22 8:47 PM
trigal38 - 2012-12-22 8:43 PM

Spent some time working on my bike tonight. I changed out the rear tire and then tried to install my Garmin cadence monitor. I also signed up for and downloaded TrainerRoad. Sounds like I should be ready to go but NO. Seems TR does not pair with my HR monitor which is not a Garmin. My Garmin HR monitor died last spring and my husband replaced it with an Orion Pacific watch + monitor he found cheap online. Also I don't think I must have paired my Garmin 305 and the cadence monitor correctly because I was not getting any data from my watch. What I did get during the ride was my cadence # which was really very motivating and made me work harder than normal. I also liked how the program paused itself if I got off and kept track of time for each interval.

I'm assuming that I did not get any power numbers since TR did not recognize a heart rate? Otherwise I did not install the cadence monitor correctly and I'll have to start all over. But it did show me a cadence number so that is something!

Also, does anyone know if I have to buy a Garmin HR monitor for this all to work?

I'm not very patient with tech stuff but I'm forcing myself to learn how to do this myself. Well, with your help of courseWink.

 

Dina I took a quick look and mind you I am not expert but TR does support different types of HR monitors. I think as long as they are ANT+ TR will support them according to the website however they don't list all the ones that they specifically support. They only listed four manufactures Garmin being one of them and the infamous many more. Worse case you may be able to contact them ask.

Oh I bet this one I have is not ANT +. Thanks Tony for checking.

I had the same problem with my Polar heart rate monitor not being ANT+ compatible. You might have to consider a Garmin or some of the other brands like Timex, Wahoo etc. Here is a link to the ANT+ website - try selecting Heart rate Monitors under "categories" on the left side and it should give you all the compatible products out there. Hope this helps

http://www.thisisant.com/directory/?

 

I might as well just get the Garmin since I have the 305 anyway. Thanks!

I don't know anything about TR but it was mentioned earlier that the HR monitor needed to be ANT+ and the 305 is not, is it?  I had a 305 before I got the Mercedes (910XT) and it needed to be cradled to get data from it.  I did a few minutes of checking and I didn't see anything that said anything without ANT+ would work.

Sounds like the perfect excuse for me to update my Garmin.......

if I read the sight correctly the 305 doesn't matter! The head unit is not used just the hr monitor and the cadence sensor. I believe the USB stick reads these and you don't even need to turn the 305 on! Confirm everything is ANT+ and it should work.


2012-12-23 8:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

Since we are officially closed we can begin the new session with a few points.  Those who were in the last group are aware that we are not a "triathlon only" group.  We are a support group for every aspect of life and training and racing fits is a small part of what our lives are about.  Over the past year that all of us mentors have been together we have seen or experienced for ourselves our own struggles with life training and general life issues.

Rules for group:

  • Mutually respect everyone.  In my time on BT I have never experienced any problems myself but I believe that by giving respect you'll receive it as well.  We are a diverse group of people from all kinds of backgrounds, lifestyles and experiences with a common interest in triathlon.  We can communicate with common courtesy throughout the session.
  • Provide any assistance you can to each member as you feel you can.  We all have different experiences that can help another learn and progress.
  • Remember, there are 4 mentors in this group.  We all may not answer every question that each of you post but we will answer if we have a differing opinion or to provide more reinforcement to the thought already posted.  Please don't take offense if one of us don't respond to your question directly after another mentor has responded.  If you would like to hear from a specific mentor post the question to them specifically to get a direct response.
  • There is no need to feel that you must post a comment to every person's post.  Feel free to post as you like, but there is no need to feel obligated to make multiple post's for every thing that comes up.

All of the mentors are pretty thick skinned so don't worry about offending us if you have a dissenting opinion.  As a matter of fact that is where we can all learn a little bit more.  Debate can sometimes be a great tool to make us think about other views.

Jeff, Jonathon and Warren, do you have anything else to add?

A final WELCOME to the group!!

2012-12-23 9:00 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed
Before this group gets out of control and heads down the wrong path....

Go Bucks! Oh...IO

Carry on
2012-12-23 9:03 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

Matt I guess I was thinking that the 305 would show some info once I had the cadence monitor even though it is not needed for TrainerRoad.

Maybe I have confused myself!

2012-12-23 9:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

mambos - 2012-12-23 10:00 AM Before this group gets out of control and heads down the wrong path....Go Bucks! Oh...IO Carry on

I think I just threw up..............................A LOT!!!!

2012-12-23 9:22 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed
trigal38 - 2012-12-23 10:03 AM

Matt I guess I was thinking that the 305 would show some info once I had the cadence monitor even though it is not needed for TrainerRoad.

Maybe I have confused myself!

it should show at least the cadence. I have the 305 with the cadence sensor and the watch reads the numbers. Have you confirmed the watch is paring to it? When you go into the setting pages you should see 3 little symbols on the bottom right. The 1st is what mode you are in, then HR, then cadence. This will show you if the HR monitor is paired along with the cadence sensor. If there is a flashing X over the top of the symbol it is not seeing the cadence sensor. If it is paring to it then the last step is to confirm it is set-up on the wheel correctly. But I believe you stated you were already seeing numbers on the computer so I assumed that is good! I haven't used the trainer road, although it is tempting. I even bought the ant+ stick so I could but I haven't been able to commit to the monthly fee! Once you get up and running make sure to let me know what you think of it and if its worth the money.


2012-12-23 10:30 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed
DirkP - 2012-12-23 9:58 AM

Since we are officially closed we can begin the new session with a few points.  Those who were in the last group are aware that we are not a "triathlon only" group.  We are a support group for every aspect of life and training and racing fits is a small part of what our lives are about.  Over the past year that all of us mentors have been together we have seen or experienced for ourselves our own struggles with life training and general life issues.

Rules for group:

  • Mutually respect everyone.  In my time on BT I have never experienced any problems myself but I believe that by giving respect you'll receive it as well.  We are a diverse group of people from all kinds of backgrounds, lifestyles and experiences with a common interest in triathlon.  We can communicate with common courtesy throughout the session.
  • Provide any assistance you can to each member as you feel you can.  We all have different experiences that can help another learn and progress.
  • Remember, there are 4 mentors in this group.  We all may not answer every question that each of you post but we will answer if we have a differing opinion or to provide more reinforcement to the thought already posted.  Please don't take offense if one of us don't respond to your question directly after another mentor has responded.  If you would like to hear from a specific mentor post the question to them specifically to get a direct response.
  • There is no need to feel that you must post a comment to every person's post.  Feel free to post as you like, but there is no need to feel obligated to make multiple post's for every thing that comes up.

All of the mentors are pretty thick skinned so don't worry about offending us if you have a dissenting opinion.  As a matter of fact that is where we can all learn a little bit more.  Debate can sometimes be a great tool to make us think about other views.

Jeff, Jonathon and Warren, do you have anything else to add?

A final WELCOME to the group!!

I think all of these pretty much cover it.  Remember guys, none of us are experts.  Each of us brings different things to the table and you'll find that none of us has all of the answers.  We are all very good at admitting when we are wrong and the best part about there being 4 of us is that we can pretty much come to an answer or give advice that is what you are looking for.

Remember that we are not doctors.  Multisport training takes it toll on the body and someone in this group is most likely going to injure themselves or have an issue that needs medical attention.  We will give treatment advice for many issues, especially if we have experience with them.  In the case that we think you need to get a second opinion from a medical professional, we will tell you and it's important that you listen to that advice.

Set realistic goals for yourself.  I'm not saying don't dream of doing something you have never done.  That WILL happen this year. Be smart and safe.  

Most of all, have fun this year.  Be smart and courteous to the others in the group and support people slower than you on your rides/runs/and in the pool.  Trust me, they will get faster eventually!

And Dirk...my name is spelled with an "a".  Cripes.

GO PATRIOTS!!!!

2012-12-23 10:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed
And if anyone comes across a sweet deal on a Garmin 910XT, I need to know about it!!
2012-12-23 10:52 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened
RunningYogini - 2012-12-23 1:13 AM

I found a used 2005 Felt S25 tri bike.  It's a size 54.  I looked at it today.  It's a solid bike.  It doesn't appear to have any problems.  It doesn't appear to have been crashed.  It shifts super smooth.  The wheels spin pretty good and only appear to be slightly out of true.  It seems to have all of the stock stuff.  Nothing more than behind the seat bottle holders are added on.  It still has the crappy stock saddle, too.

How much would you pay for this bike?  (Of course, I would take it to my friendly Felt dealer for a check up.)

A friend of mine (out of town) is looking for a tri bike and used is right up her alley.  What kind of measurements should she do on herself to help me figure out if this bike would fit her?

Tracy, obviously I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about bikes, but I have tried a couple of tri bikes.  How tall is your friend?  I would think she would have to be tall for a girl for a 54 to fit her well.  For me at ~5'3" I think I would want a size 48.

2012-12-23 11:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened
kaehlin - 2012-12-23 5:58 AM

michgirlsk - 2012-12-22 8:38 PM Eric, hello fellow Michigander! Smile I live in SE Michigan. Are you looking to stay in the Lansing area for your triathlons?  Also, I'm with you on the go Big Ten, but I'm a graduate of U of M myself.

 

Samantha,

I guess I am planning to stay close at least for the first race, just to keep it as simple as possible.  I'm going to study schedules / etc and make some decisions on targets and plans over the next week or two.  Do you have any recommendations / favorites (in Lansing, or anywhere else?)

As far as that Go Blue thing, that's ok by me most days of the year - but in head to head, I am a GO GREEN / GO WHITE, banks of the Red Cedar guy!

I don't know much about races outside the Detroit area, but the race management company 3D (3disciplines.com) comes to mind.  They have a bunch of little races all over the state, and I believe that includes at least one around Lansing.  There are mixed reviews about the company, it seems most either love them or hate them.  I've done one of their races (in Tawas), and I personally didn't have a problem.  I think they are generally personable, and I think some of the complaints stem from sometimes a lack of organization.

If you are able to get away in the middle of the week, a race I recommend is any in the T-rex tri series!  It's a fun little local thing in Brighton held at a state park (Island Lake), but it sells out!  It's put on by a local running store (Running Fit, have you heard of them?) so they are always about finding crazy themes for races.  There's a race in June, July, and August, and they are held Wednesday evenings.

http://runtrextri.com/

Otherwise, in case you haven't found it yet, there is trifind.com to search for races.

I will be starting out the season by doing the Island Lake Triathlon in May, which is in Brighton.

2012-12-23 11:09 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened
RunningYogini - 2012-12-23 1:13 AM

I found a used 2005 Felt S25 tri bike.  It's a size 54.  I looked at it today.  It's a solid bike.  It doesn't appear to have any problems.  It doesn't appear to have been crashed.  It shifts super smooth.  The wheels spin pretty good and only appear to be slightly out of true.  It seems to have all of the stock stuff.  Nothing more than behind the seat bottle holders are added on.  It still has the crappy stock saddle, too.

How much would you pay for this bike?  (Of course, I would take it to my friendly Felt dealer for a check up.)

A friend of mine (out of town) is looking for a tri bike and used is right up her alley.  What kind of measurements should she do on herself to help me figure out if this bike would fit her?

Tracy,  very nice of you to be doing some research about a bike for your friend.  You know what I'm going to say about the price, right?  I wouldn't pay a dollar for it, if it doesn't fit.

So with that said, let's talk about fit.  If she is good with a tape measure or has a friend (aka you) that is willing to help out, this website has a great tool to figure out the size of the bike that will most likely work for you.  It's obviously ideal to go to a fitter to figure that out, BUT money is often a factor and this is a tool that can work if you go about it correctly.  



Edited by jgerbodegrant 2012-12-23 12:27 PM


2012-12-23 11:51 AM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened
Yes, of course. I will send good thoughts and prayers her way. Please keep us informed of her progress.
Jo63 - 2012-12-23 7:49 AMMan I go shopping for a day and Iam 4 pages behind.... I got a call from one of my sisters yesterday she just found out she has breast cancer her name is Margie, could you please send some prayers her way, she has an appointment Wednesday with a specialist to find out the details.
2012-12-23 12:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened

Jo63 - 2012-12-23 7:49 AM Man I go shopping for a day and Iam 4 pages behind.... I got a call from one of my sisters yesterday she just found out she has breast cancer her name is Margie, could you please send some prayers her way, she has an appointment Wednesday with a specialist to find out the details.

JoAnne I'm very sorry to hear about your sister Marge but she will definitely be in my thougths and prayers. Please let us know how she is doing.

If you are decide on doing Syracuse I will see there. I'm in and just to let you know it is not an easy course. The run is very though, all hills and it's a two loop course so you get to do it twice. The bike is not too bad but I hear the first 21 miles is all uphill. In any case if you are looking for a challenge Syracuse will certainly give you one. I figured this would be great for me in my prep for IMWI.

2012-12-23 12:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

Jo, Margie is in our prayers!!!  With all the advances in medicine, cures are getting better every day!!  Please keep us informed!

In my next race, I'll wear pink socks just for her!

2012-12-23 12:30 PM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

Jo, Margie is in our prayers!!!  With all the advances in medicine, cures are getting better every day!!  Please keep us informed!

In my next race, I'll wear pink socks just for her!

2012-12-23 12:37 PM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Opened
trigal38 - 2012-12-23 8:10 AM

Wow Will, lots going on, congratulations on the baby! How exciting! And thinking about an IM too, I'm wore out just reading your bio.

How does your wife feel about you attempting an IM? You've already completed a half and marathon so she should have a pretty realistic idea of the # of hours you'll be training. Do you have to sign up before the baby is born? I would wait to sign up if you could. You just never know, you may feel it is not so important once that little bundle arrives . It's hard to imagine now, with nothing to hold or snuggle up to, but the Daddies I've been around don't really want to let those baby girls for very long when they have a chance to hold them.

Now I'm getting all sentimental thinking about when mine were babies.

 

Will congrats to you and your wife on the baby. I sort of agree Dina on the IM attempt as well. It is going to be a very time consuming effort. You may want to weigh that against the the arrival of the baby. On the other hand I am sort of like you in that while I don't have a lot of experience I decided to make a run at an IM this year because of opportunity, I may not get a better on to do it. My kids are older, I work from home and have a lot of flexiability with my training schedule and I have gotten the full support of my family and most importantly my wife to make a run at. Just some things to consider before deciding to commit.



2012-12-23 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

USERNAME: kickitinok  NAME: Trina

STORY: Played team sports (softball, volleyball) growing-up. Started hitting the gym in my mid 30's. Got bored with that so starting riding a hybrid bike around the lake in front of my house. Winter came and I had to come up with something to do, so I chose swimming. Next spring I bought a road bike and did some bike rallies. It occurred to me that I was doing 2 out of the 3 sports in triathlon. Got fit for some running shoes and started running. Did my first mini sprint tri (indoor) a few months later. I've had some running issues - mainly right knee and left back. Presently I'm having upper back pain subsequent to running the Dallas Half Marathon earlier this month. I struggle greatly with running and am slow on the bike, so at this point in my tri "career" my focus is on losing weight and improving speed on the run and bike. It's a slow progress.

FAMILY STATUS: Married for a long time. We have one grown son who works for our family company, and two old miniature schnauzers. My husband participates in road and mountain biking with me.

JOB: I work slightly more than part time for one of our family's businesses. I work from home and have a flexible work schedule, so I am blessed/lucky to work around my training schedule.

CURRENT TRAINING: Coming-up on my 4th season in triathlon, I train six days a week, and am currently focusing on running. I typically train year 'round since the weather in my state is mild during the winter (for the most part). I do have a coach and she's wonderful...so very happy to have her.

THIS YEAR'S RACES: I plan on doing a sprint or two, maybe an oly, another half marathon, and a half ironman by the end of the year.

LAST SEASON'S RACES: two sprints, one olympic, one half ironman, two half marathons, a century ride (HHH), and multiple bike rallys.

MY BIGGEST SUCCESSES: Losing 43 lbs. Quitting smoking. Coming in first in my age group at a tiny sprint (there were only 3 women in my age group), making friends participating in this sport, finishing a half ironman, and having lots of fun doing all of it!

WEIGHT LOSS: I struggle here. I have about 30-35lbs more to lose. Plateaued about a year ago and my weight won't budge. Working with my new coach on an eating plan. So far, this has been my biggest limiter. Hopefully I will find what works for me and can sustain it to help me along on my fitness journey.

 

2012-12-23 12:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

Well it didn't take long to close out the group, wow that was fast! I think we did this last year so I will throw it out there to the group, what goals does everyone have this season?

2012-12-23 12:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed
jgerbodegrant - 2012-12-23 11:30 AM

And Dirk...my name is spelled with an "a".  Cripes.

GO PATRIOTS!!!!

Wow!  I have only been spelling it this way for years and you just noticed?  You're not very observant.  Maybe I'll start spelling it Jon-a-thong Laughing

2012-12-23 1:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed

I heard it would fill up fast - thx to Karl and I am pumped to be part of this group. In fact - I hit the gym this morning and switched up the weights after getting alittle feedback from Karl. I am going to be hurting tomorrow.

I rarely run outside in the dark anymore - near misses and dogs officially scare the crap out of me. When I do, I am plastered in reflective gear and a small blue light that goes under my white long sleeve shirt - easier to see than a regular white light. I agree with you about the holidays - people are in a rush, have too many errands to do, and may not see us out there. Be safe junkies!

 

jgerbodegrant - 2012-12-23 9:07 AM

Good morning Junkies.  All I can say is WOW.  I'm amazed at how fast this group has filled up.  Welcome to everyone!  Like I said in my bio that probably nobody read because it was boring...2013 is going to be a very exciting year.

I'm about to get on the trainer for a 45 min warmup for a longer run this morning, but I want to leave you with the following.  Please be patient with the father-figure lecture.

This is the holiday season and although some of us will be taking the next week off from training, some of us will still be out there on the roads running and cycling.  Remember that it is even less common to see people out exercising during this time of year.  Motorists and others are busy texting and talking on the phone.  They are distracted by the stress of the holidays and New Year coming up.  You need to make sure you are paying attention to everything around you.  Safety is a huge concern when you're on icy roads and I don't want to hear of anyone getting tagged by a car or slipping and pulling a muscle or even worse.  If a car is coming, it only takes you two seconds to jump into the shoulder to let him/her pass.  Do your best to protect yourself by wearing brightly colored clothing and sticking to roads that are less busy.  Be smart.

Okay...off the soap box.  Get out there if you can today.  Make the most of this Sunday.

 



Edited by jenbmosley 2012-12-23 1:36 PM
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