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2013-12-29 3:29 PM
in reply to: brandi1182

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed

Originally posted by brandi1182 Scott and Kelly, Thanks for fitting me in! My biggest question right now is what to do about pedals on my bike...like I said I have virtually no experience with cycling and the bike I have is a hybrid. What type of pedals do you recommend I start out with for training and my first triathlons (first will be a sprint, second will be Olympic ). I've read so many different recommendations from just using my running shoes with the cages or with platform pedals to going right into clip-less the latter seeming a bit aggressive ??? Thanks! Brandi

 

I'd get clipless even with a hybrid.  It just facilitates a more natural cycling motion.  You can get a good pair of Shimano or Look online for cheap at places like Nashbar.com and they're really easy to install.



2013-12-29 4:04 PM
in reply to: uhcoog

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
Originally posted by uhcoog

Originally posted by brandi1182 Scott and Kelly, Thanks for fitting me in! My biggest question right now is what to do about pedals on my bike...like I said I have virtually no experience with cycling and the bike I have is a hybrid. What type of pedals do you recommend I start out with for training and my first triathlons (first will be a sprint, second will be Olympic ). I've read so many different recommendations from just using my running shoes with the cages or with platform pedals to going right into clip-less the latter seeming a bit aggressive ??? Thanks! Brandi

 

I'd get clipless even with a hybrid.  It just facilitates a more natural cycling motion.  You can get a good pair of Shimano or Look online for cheap at places like Nashbar.com and they're really easy to install.




I agree. Nashbar is having some sales right now. I switched to Look last year and I really like them. I had "frogs" the last time. I also added aero bars last year too. Which definitely added some speed.
Tom
2013-12-29 7:06 PM
in reply to: kaburns1214

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Open
2014 Goals:
1) Reach goal weight of 175lbs (currently 210)
2) Become proficient at swimming (just starting to train and have no swimming background)
3) complete Chatahoochee Challenge Sprint July 19th
4) complete Augusta 70.3 September 28th

-I am just beginning to train at swimming so that will be the key to acheiving my race goals. If I can complete the swim I know I will be able to finish the race.
2013-12-29 7:30 PM
in reply to: kaburns1214

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Open
Kelly,

I took your advice in the pool today. Kind of! So I liked the idea of 10 sets, but thought 50's were too short. By coincidence, my training plan gave me this swim today. So I gave it a shot.
Endurance
60
3200
WU: 300 & then 3x 100 choice (free or non free).
MS:
4x200 pull with 30" rest
8x100 with 15" rest
200 kick
6x100 on 10" rest
CD: 200

I was able to complete the entire workout, it just took me 1.5 hours. Most of the extra time was rest. I definitely spent more time resting than the workout called for, but I felt great. I also switched to the Tyr contoured catalyst glove for my pull sets. A coach I am meeting with tomorrow asked me to try them. They really put my hands and elbows in the right position from entry to recovery. If your off a bit, the paddle pulls your hand way out of sorts. And they show you when you have any glide in your entry, by separating with your hand. The 8x100 sets just after my pull sets were the best swimming I have done in my life. You can also feel your hand and forearm pulling the water. So I wanted to thank you and everyone else for all of the help. I am not ready for a 1.2 mile swim yet. But all that stands between me and that swim is lots of pool work, which I can do.
2013-12-30 4:56 AM
in reply to: poolgod

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Open
Originally posted by poolgod
3200
WU: 300 & then 3x 100 choice (free or non free).
MS:
4x200 pull with 30" rest
8x100 with 15" rest
200 kick
6x100 on 10" rest
CD: 200

That's a pretty sweet workout. Awesome job man!
2013-12-30 8:23 AM
in reply to: Dunn Right

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Open

You want a set of paddles that will take your hand out of the pull entirely and forces you to use the forearm as your propulsion get some Finis PT paddles.  Maddening.  http://www.finisinc.com/pt-paddles.html

 

Form work in the pool and some water running today for me.  First workout without any pain in my knee in weeks.  Encouraging. 



2013-12-30 9:25 AM
in reply to: uhcoog

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Open
Originally posted by uhcoog

You want a set of paddles that will take your hand out of the pull entirely and forces you to use the forearm as your propulsion get some Finis PT paddles.  Maddening.  http://www.finisinc.com/pt-paddles.html

 

Form work in the pool and some water running today for me.  First workout without any pain in my knee in weeks.  Encouraging. 




What Scott is getting at is "Early Vertical Forearm." One of the most common problems with swim form (other than hip drop) is dropping your eblow down on entry into the water, which results in a reall small propulsion area. You almost want to drag your elbow on the surface of the water. The paddles Scott linked to take your hand out the equation, which allows you to feel if you are dropping your elbow. They are genreally maddening at first but they do a good job of correctly for dropped elbow.

2013-12-30 9:28 AM
in reply to: uhcoog

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
Originally posted by uhcoog

Originally posted by brandi1182 Scott and Kelly, Thanks for fitting me in! My biggest question right now is what to do about pedals on my bike...like I said I have virtually no experience with cycling and the bike I have is a hybrid. What type of pedals do you recommend I start out with for training and my first triathlons (first will be a sprint, second will be Olympic ). I've read so many different recommendations from just using my running shoes with the cages or with platform pedals to going right into clip-less the latter seeming a bit aggressive ??? Thanks! Brandi

 

I'd get clipless even with a hybrid.  It just facilitates a more natural cycling motion.  You can get a good pair of Shimano or Look online for cheap at places like Nashbar.com and they're really easy to install.




BIG TIME agree with Scott here on getting clipless pedals. The big advantage is they left you use all the power of your pedal stroke not just the down stroke. With platform or cage pedal you lose the power from the entire back half of your pedal stroke. This makes a huge difference, especially when riding on rolling/hilly terrain.
2013-12-30 9:29 AM
in reply to: tdl1972

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Open
Originally posted by tdl1972

Name: David

Story: Reforming couch potato.

Family: This is my biggest life focus for 2014. Wife, Emily, and a 2.5 year-old son, Tommy.

Training: Not much recently. I took about six weeks off, and I'm ready to get back at it.

2013: Locomotive HM, Publix Atlanta HM, Callaway Gardens Oly & IMFL

2014: Florida Keys Ragnar, Publix Atlanta HM & Callaway Gardens Oly. Looking at Augusta 70.3 or B2B plus some shorter course tri's for fun this year.




I would LOVE to know what you think of the Florida Keys Ragnar. I'm doing my first Ragnar on Cape Cod and am really looking forward to it.

On a random note the first triathlon I ever saw was the one at Callaway Gardens back in 2002.
2013-12-30 11:35 AM
in reply to: uhcoog

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Open
Originally posted by uhcoog

You want a set of paddles that will take your hand out of the pull entirely and forces you to use the forearm as your propulsion get some Finis PT paddles.  Maddening.  http://www.finisinc.com/pt-paddles.html

 

Form work in the pool and some water running today for me.  First workout without any pain in my knee in weeks.  Encouraging. 




Those paddles make me SORE after I use them!
2013-12-30 3:19 PM
in reply to: #4916036


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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
I am looking for some input on whether my HIM bike goal is realistic or whether I need to readjust my goal to something more doable.

Brief background and history: started pedaling 2 summers ago on the MTB to lose some weight. Last spring I purchased a good road bike Trek Madone 3.1 and put about 4000 miles on it in the last year including my first century and my first HIM.

I finished the 56 mile bike in 2:56 which surprised me because I felt like I laid back quite a bit. The time gave me a 19.1 mph avg. My goal was only to finish comfortably so I never pushed too hard. So I think I probably could have done 20 mph avg without blowing up.

My goal for this year is to race and put down a 2:30 on the bike which is a 22.5 mph avg.

I can't afford a new tri bike this year but figure I'll have about $500-600 to invest in a professional fitting, aero bars and helmet. I am not training with a power meter but have incorporated a HRM into my training to improve my intensity. By March I will be putting on 120 miles per week and increasing that to 180 by late June.

Given where I am and what tools I have, is my 2:30 bike time attainable?

I would appreciate any input. I'm ready to work hard at reaching this goal but don't want to set myself up to fail either.


2013-12-30 3:49 PM
in reply to: kaburns1214

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Open
All great advice. I will try the Finis paddles. I saw a YouTube video about "Early Vertical Forearm" and the tip I took from it that really seemed to help me yesterday was to lead your entry with your middle finger. The reason, I think, this works is that it puts your elbow joint (at entry ) in the position in needs to be in through your propulsion phase. So I literally extended my middle finger down slightly and made sure it was hitting the water first. I also remember seeing a video about stopping the water or grabbing hold of the water like it was a still nary object and propelling your self through it. I was able to visualize this yesterday. The result was a high elbow throughout my swim. I was focused on the entry and grabbing the water, but when I got around to checking to see if my elbow was staying high, it always was. Thanks to everyone for your help.
2013-12-30 3:52 PM
in reply to: Dangerjim71

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed

Originally posted by Dangerjim71 I am looking for some input on whether my HIM bike goal is realistic or whether I need to readjust my goal to something more doable. Brief background and history: started pedaling 2 summers ago on the MTB to lose some weight. Last spring I purchased a good road bike Trek Madone 3.1 and put about 4000 miles on it in the last year including my first century and my first HIM. I finished the 56 mile bike in 2:56 which surprised me because I felt like I laid back quite a bit. The time gave me a 19.1 mph avg. My goal was only to finish comfortably so I never pushed too hard. So I think I probably could have done 20 mph avg without blowing up. My goal for this year is to race and put down a 2:30 on the bike which is a 22.5 mph avg. I can't afford a new tri bike this year but figure I'll have about $500-600 to invest in a professional fitting, aero bars and helmet. I am not training with a power meter but have incorporated a HRM into my training to improve my intensity. By March I will be putting on 120 miles per week and increasing that to 180 by late June. Given where I am and what tools I have, is my 2:30 bike time attainable? I would appreciate any input. I'm ready to work hard at reaching this goal but don't want to set myself up to fail either.

 

I'll be honest in 2:30 is a pretty sporty bike split, borderline elite.  Racine isn't all that hilly, but the amount of turns on the bike course is going to slow you down a bit.

I prefer not to set time goals this far out.  Time is a product of effort, plus conditions, plus a myriad of other influence.  Yes you can have a ballpark idea of what time you should lay down prior to going out race day that is based off your training, but those time goals should be set right at the beginning of your taper IMO.  At this point in time you should be laying out a smart training plan that moves your fitness forward on a regular basis and gets you to the starting line healthy.  By setting definitive time goals now you set yourself up to either A) have the perception of falling behind and push the intensity of some/all workouts unnecessarily or B) have the perception of being ahead of schedule and not realizing all the potential you have.  Rare is the training arc that goes according to plan.

BTW get the aero bars prior to the fitting.  They will change your position.

 

2013-12-30 3:56 PM
in reply to: uhcoog

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed

So Jim alluded to a topic that we haven't discussed in what metrics do you train by on the bike and run?  Heart rate, power, RPE, etc.  Why those metrics?

2013-12-30 4:46 PM
in reply to: uhcoog

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
On the bike I tend to keep an eye on watts, so power would be my metric. That and I want to keep my cadence consistent. In other words, at a cadence of 90 an easy ride is at 180-190 watts. I interpret a cadence of 90 and 240-260 watts as an RPE of 7-8.

Running I have always used RPE, basically because my wife will not condone the purchase of a heart rate monitor. If I am on a treadmill, I will occasionally use the heart rate monitor, but mostly for recovery. How quickly do I return to normal, has always indicated what kind of overall shape I am in at any given time.
2013-12-31 4:49 AM
in reply to: uhcoog

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
Originally posted by uhcoog

So Jim alluded to a topic that we haven't discussed in what metrics do you train by on the bike and run?  Heart rate, power, RPE, etc.  Why those metrics?




I am a firm believer in using heart rate as a governor for a few reasons. First heart rate is is a measure of total stress on your body -- if you didn't sleep, if you're stressed or if you feel great -- those will all be reflected in your heart rate. By using HR to guide training you can take all of those things into account. Using pace or power you may push too hard or not hard enough because you're have a very good or very bad day. RPE can be a good proxy for HR but most athletes, especially newer athletes misjudge RPE so easy days become too hard and hard days become too easy.

To use HR you just need a simple heart rate monitor, there's no need for a more expensive GPS watch. Something like this works:

http://www.amazon.com/Timex-Mid-Size-T5G971-Personal-Trainer/dp/B00...


2013-12-31 4:53 AM
in reply to: uhcoog

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
Originally posted by uhcoog

Originally posted by Dangerjim71 I am looking for some input on whether my HIM bike goal is realistic or whether I need to readjust my goal to something more doable. Brief background and history: started pedaling 2 summers ago on the MTB to lose some weight. Last spring I purchased a good road bike Trek Madone 3.1 and put about 4000 miles on it in the last year including my first century and my first HIM. I finished the 56 mile bike in 2:56 which surprised me because I felt like I laid back quite a bit. The time gave me a 19.1 mph avg. My goal was only to finish comfortably so I never pushed too hard. So I think I probably could have done 20 mph avg without blowing up. My goal for this year is to race and put down a 2:30 on the bike which is a 22.5 mph avg. I can't afford a new tri bike this year but figure I'll have about $500-600 to invest in a professional fitting, aero bars and helmet. I am not training with a power meter but have incorporated a HRM into my training to improve my intensity. By March I will be putting on 120 miles per week and increasing that to 180 by late June. Given where I am and what tools I have, is my 2:30 bike time attainable? I would appreciate any input. I'm ready to work hard at reaching this goal but don't want to set myself up to fail either.

 

I'll be honest in 2:30 is a pretty sporty bike split, borderline elite.  Racine isn't all that hilly, but the amount of turns on the bike course is going to slow you down a bit.

I prefer not to set time goals this far out.  Time is a product of effort, plus conditions, plus a myriad of other influence.  Yes you can have a ballpark idea of what time you should lay down prior to going out race day that is based off your training, but those time goals should be set right at the beginning of your taper IMO.  At this point in time you should be laying out a smart training plan that moves your fitness forward on a regular basis and gets you to the starting line healthy.  By setting definitive time goals now you set yourself up to either A) have the perception of falling behind and push the intensity of some/all workouts unnecessarily or B) have the perception of being ahead of schedule and not realizing all the potential you have.  Rare is the training arc that goes according to plan.

BTW get the aero bars prior to the fitting.  They will change your position.

 




I agree with Scott. Its difficult to set time goal out very far from a race, especially if you are looking at big jumps in improvement.

I like to break outcome based goals down into smaller targets, e.g. hitting certain workouts, maintaining a certain HR on the bike, and then letting the chips fall as they may on race day. Look at the results for any 70.3 / 140.6 the bike splits vary from year to year based on the field and conditions. So many external factors go into your ultimate time that its really difficult to put a specific number on a bike split. I think the goal of "massive improvement on the bike" is a good one and closer to race day, based on training numbers, you should be able to ballpark what that number will look like.
2013-12-31 5:07 AM
in reply to: kaburns1214

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
With it being New Years Eve and big resolutions for 2014?

2013-12-31 9:00 AM
in reply to: #4920577

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
Personally I am not big on resolutions, however my goal for 2014 is to make consistent training happen. As a busy mom and wife, sometimes making workouts a priority is hard. It is all in the planning though and I am fortunate to have flexibility in my schedule.
I am looking forward to a healthy 2014!
2013-12-31 9:04 AM
in reply to: #4921017

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
On the heart rate topic....I do not monitor my heart rate. Should I? This level of training is new to me, I have only been running for about 10 mos and only completed two tris, with very little bike training but a decent amount of swimming.

I have been intrigued by HRM'ing but haven't taken the plunge. That watch, link posted above, looks pretty cool. I'd like some feedback on whether or not I should incorporate that into my training.
2013-12-31 10:04 AM
in reply to: #4921019

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
Looks like I am the only one on here this morning, please forgive my monopolizing the thread :-)

I am starting to look more seriously at my training plan and could really use some guidance. My A race is a long course, 1mi swim, 34mi bike and 10 mi run. I would ideally like to sneak in sprint and an Oly before my race date August 23. I had also hoped to do some running races.

I am feeling a little overwhelmed in mapping out my training. My husband is a 'just go for it' kind of guy and will swim, bike and run on his own schedule but I prefer something well thought out and planned.

I was considering a Don Fink plan but the volume concerns me. It would have me swimming only twice (I prefer 3x), biking 3 and running 4x. I was thinking I would just stick to my Mon, Wed, Fri swim schedule but then that really defeats his well thought out plan :-(.

Any advice as far as training and how/when to fit in other races, as well as when to technically start a training program, would be much appreciated!


2013-12-31 11:05 AM
in reply to: dace

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed

Originally posted by dace On the heart rate topic....I do not monitor my heart rate. Should I? This level of training is new to me, I have only been running for about 10 mos and only completed two tris, with very little bike training but a decent amount of swimming. I have been intrigued by HRM'ing but haven't taken the plunge. That watch, link posted above, looks pretty cool. I'd like some feedback on whether or not I should incorporate that into my training.

 

I love heart rate training.  It gives you data to judge progress, it tells you when you need extra recovery, gives you hard targets to train by instead of feeling, etc.  It takes a little getting used to.  You'll feel like you're going slow for a while.  In the end you'll get more efficient aerobically so the same effort level yields better results.

2013-12-31 11:21 AM
in reply to: dace

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed

Originally posted by dace Looks like I am the only one on here this morning, please forgive my monopolizing the thread :-) I am starting to look more seriously at my training plan and could really use some guidance. My A race is a long course, 1mi swim, 34mi bike and 10 mi run. I would ideally like to sneak in sprint and an Oly before my race date August 23. I had also hoped to do some running races. I am feeling a little overwhelmed in mapping out my training. My husband is a 'just go for it' kind of guy and will swim, bike and run on his own schedule but I prefer something well thought out and planned. I was considering a Don Fink plan but the volume concerns me. It would have me swimming only twice (I prefer 3x), biking 3 and running 4x. I was thinking I would just stick to my Mon, Wed, Fri swim schedule but then that really defeats his well thought out plan :-(. Any advice as far as training and how/when to fit in other races, as well as when to technically start a training program, would be much appreciated!

So I've never really looked at Fink's plan.  I'm going to assume there are deload weeks or "rest" weeks.  Ideally you use these weeks as faux taper weeks and put races at the end of those weeks.  

 

As far as swimming 2 or 3 times a week it's really a personal preference.  I have a lot of athletes swim only twice a week.  You can spend a boatload of time swimming and only make up :05-:10 per hundred meters.  In the long run that isn't that much time.  Whereas if you put that time in on the bike it would yield exponentially better results.  

2013-12-31 11:31 AM
in reply to: #4921085

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
Thanks for the feedback Scott. I will look into buying a simple HRM, it sounds like it is worth having.

Putting a race at a taper week makes sense, I never thought of that. I do enjoy my pool workouts. I guess I need to look really hard at the schedule and see what I can realistically squeeze in.
Thanks!
2013-12-31 12:52 PM
in reply to: dace

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Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed
Originally posted by dace

Thanks for the feedback Scott. I will look into buying a simple HRM, it sounds like it is worth having.

Putting a race at a taper week makes sense, I never thought of that. I do enjoy my pool workouts. I guess I need to look really hard at the schedule and see what I can realistically squeeze in.
Thanks!


Its definately worth buying a HRM. Once you have one its important to set zones (I'm pretty sure the Fink plan has tests to set HR zones) and then to follow them. Often times people feel that they are going "too slow" when they start HR training, but in reality you're developing your aerobic system (even a 5K is predominantly aerobic) and you are getting faster at all HRs so when you up your HR for speed work or racing, you'll be faster at those higher HRs as well.

Make sense?
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