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2011-01-27 6:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
GoFaster - 2011-01-27 5:20 PM
How about everyone else?  Do you train with different cadences, mix it up, or stay fairly consistent most of the time.  Me, I tend to be fairly consistent in the mid 80's to low 90's.  If I'm near 80, that's low for me.  Just wondering about experimenting a little with some cadences in the 60's and 70's.


I've never had cadence data, and have always gone with what feels best.  But I can see the benefit of doing some low cadence training at high-ish watts.  I'm planning to try some of that out when I get back to serious bike training.  I've never tried it before.


2011-01-27 6:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
kr140.6 - 2011-01-27 5:27 PM
All right, I'll brag a little bit: I delivered 14 babies the first weekend in December!Smile That was some crazy a** endurance event if there ever was one!  The 14th patient took YEARS off my life as she very nearly lost her life but she is absolutely fine now (and so is baby).  Phew!



I guess I should quit complaining about my job stresses.  They really pale in comparison to this! 
2011-01-27 8:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!

Graycat - 2011-01-27 3:32 PM

Cheers, James.

Only thing I've changed of late is to drop my saddle on the tri bike a bit as it felt too high. I did an hour on it Monday which felt good in the quads but ached funny in the knees so I'm guessing that's the cause. My running shoes are pretty much new with about 50 miles on them and no knee pain until now.

Would it be worth matching my saddle height on the tri bike to my road bike? Or is the position just to different?

 
Where is the knee pain?  I suspect it’s Anterior (at the front of the knee).  How far did you move the saddle down?  Rule of thumb for fine tuning (without a fitter or measuring) do not move more than 5mm at a time.  Front knee pain can be caused by;
 
Saddle too low and/or too far forward
Foot too far forward on the pedal or cleat postion
Pushing a big gear or low cadence (RPM’s)
Crank arms too long
 
 
OK well if you dropped your saddle, your saddle moved forward as well.  So you would need to move the saddle back a few mm depending on how far down you dropped the saddle.  One affects the other.  Best thing to really do is move the saddle back to the original height unless that is causing issues. 
 
Not a good idea to match saddle heights of a road bike and tri bike.  The 2 bikes have 2 different geometry. 

 

2011-01-28 7:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-27 6:01 PM  Often I am prescribed a cadence of 45-55.



What's the intended benefit of a cadence this low?  Even in an out of the saddle climb up a sharp incline I'm not pushing a cadence that low very often.  Just looking to learn something new and how I can maybe benefit.
2011-01-28 9:24 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Crazy week! I haven't had time to sit still in front of a browser much at all over the past week, and have only managed to keep up the training by being time-flexible.  Here's a philisophical question/topic for the group:
Last year I joined a local tri club, in part to try and get more motivated, connect with other locals, and also b/c the membership includes swag & discounts at the LBS sponsoring the club.  The amount of group activities were a little dissapointing, and schedules made it difficult to the activities they did hold. Although membership didn't meet my motivational needs, I still considered it a cost effective investment.
Knowing all this, and that my schedule this season won't be any more flexible, should I re-up? Im already planning to replace my saddle and tri shoes, plus the ongoing nutrition supplies, so I'm pretty certain to recoup the club fees; but also know I will have limited opportunity to do the group things.  There's a part of me that sees an ethical quandary here.
What does the group have to say?
2011-01-28 9:57 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
StMaas - 2011-01-28 10:24 AM Crazy week! I haven't had time to sit still in front of a browser much at all over the past week, and have only managed to keep up the training by being time-flexible.  Here's a philisophical question/topic for the group:
Last year I joined a local tri club, in part to try and get more motivated, connect with other locals, and also b/c the membership includes swag & discounts at the LBS sponsoring the club.  The amount of group activities were a little dissapointing, and schedules made it difficult to the activities they did hold. Although membership didn't meet my motivational needs, I still considered it a cost effective investment.
Knowing all this, and that my schedule this season won't be any more flexible, should I re-up? Im already planning to replace my saddle and tri shoes, plus the ongoing nutrition supplies, so I'm pretty certain to recoup the club fees; but also know I will have limited opportunity to do the group things.  There's a part of me that sees an ethical quandary here.
What does the group have to say?


I've been a part of tri team that I rarely trained with but enjoyed the discounts for 5 years.  Last year I didn't rejoin as I didn't like the way the club was moving, but when I bought my new Ordu the shop gave me the club discount anyhow knowing I wasn't part of their tri  team.  The owner asked me if I belonged to my bike race team and said oh I'll give you the team discount. I guess it helps that I have bought probably 5 bikes from them.


2011-01-28 11:13 AM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
GoFaster - 2011-01-28 8:35 AM
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-27 6:01 PM  Often I am prescribed a cadence of 45-55.

What's the intended benefit of a cadence this low?  Even in an out of the saddle climb up a sharp incline I'm not pushing a cadence that low very often.  Just looking to learn something new and how I can maybe benefit.


I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this as well.

I'm thinking it might help train legs to deliver power at weaker points in the pedal stroke.  That's just a guess though.

I also know of several strong triathletes that like to ride low cadence in IM.  I think the idea there is it helps with your run somehow, but I don't quite see that yet.
2011-01-28 1:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
wiky - 2011-01-28 12:13 PM
GoFaster - 2011-01-28 8:35 AM
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-27 6:01 PM  Often I am prescribed a cadence of 45-55.

What's the intended benefit of a cadence this low?  Even in an out of the saddle climb up a sharp incline I'm not pushing a cadence that low very often.  Just looking to learn something new and how I can maybe benefit.


I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this as well.

I'm thinking it might help train legs to deliver power at weaker points in the pedal stroke.  That's just a guess though.

I also know of several strong triathletes that like to ride low cadence in IM.  I think the idea there is it helps with your run somehow, but I don't quite see that yet.


Here is my take on this low cadence training.
 
Low cadence training is simply power work to develop torque, while providing somewhat of a break for the cardiovascular and aerobic systems.  Provided you’re not out of the saddle. 
 
I think other thoughts on this include; increasing the power output at same percentage as a high cadence with out increasing the cardiovascular and aerobic systems demands.
 
One major issue of low cadence training is the stresses it places on the knees.  So providing your knees can tolerate it and you keeping the pedal stroke smooth and even throughout the revolution it is a great way to build power.


2011-01-28 1:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
wiky - 2011-01-28 12:13 PM
GoFaster - 2011-01-28 8:35 AM
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-27 6:01 PM  Often I am prescribed a cadence of 45-55.

What's the intended benefit of a cadence this low?  Even in an out of the saddle climb up a sharp incline I'm not pushing a cadence that low very often.  Just looking to learn something new and how I can maybe benefit.


I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this as well.

I'm thinking it might help train legs to deliver power at weaker points in the pedal stroke.  That's just a guess though.

I also know of several strong triathletes that like to ride low cadence in IM.  I think the idea there is it helps with your run somehow, but I don't quite see that yet.


For equal power, lower RPMs means lower HR often by 8-10 beats per minute for me. Think if you are on your bike in an IM 5-7 hours and your HR is 10 beats per minute lower the whole ride, how it may put you in a different position coming off the bike as the aerobic stress has been less even riding same power.

For me my current knee issues may have started back when I did lower cadence work on the trainer a couple years ago and had some knee pain doing so.

2011-01-28 2:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Been reading the cadence stuff with interest.  Been TDY so I have been busy with work and travel so haven't posted anything though.  Sorry if I'm saying anything already discussed.

I used to bike in the 60-70 range.  That was for touring, no racing or anything, just a cross country trip, it's where I pedaled without ever thinking about it and being a noob roadie.  Did the trip again, and everything I heard was "higher cadence = higher efficiency" so I tried to up it and was probably in the 80's when I did the trip again.  When I had my first race experience years later, I still was hitting the 80's in training but found my cadence in the 90's during the races.  The past year or so, I've been trying to raise my avg cadence in training - I figured if I'm gonna race like that, I should train like that (it's tough, when I get lazy, my cadence drops with the easier effort).  So that's where I am, I've focused holding higher cadence (low 90's), and now my "comfortable" cadence - where I naturally fall generally avgs low 90's  on the trainer this winter.   This year, I my highest race avg was 97 and lowest 92 (very hilly courses though).

I definitely agree with what others have said - my HR is lower at the same power when at a low cadence.  However, I don't currently have the endourance to hold that nearly as long as my higher cadence  (at the same power).  My muscles get tired quicker, and that's why I've kept with the high cadence. But I guess that's just what I'm adapted too.  I know from the 20 min power tests (which do put a strain on my aerobically) I will switch to a harder gear to recover aerobically but it takes a toll on my legs.

It's always been a focus of mine to up the cadence (from personal experience it's very easy to adapt to a new "natural" cadence given time and focus) but it' seems like I should stop that.  Although, I fatigue quicker in my muscular system than my aerobic system (same with running/swimming), so perhaps that is a reason to work low cadence? Or a reason to stick with my cadence now?  I tried it today (well, did my workout a gear harder than I normally would) and ended up at 87 avg, where I'm usually 92-93.  My left upper hammy/butt muscle got a little sore during, nothing that was close to stopping my workout or that will affect anything in the future, but it was interesting to me that that slight change showed up in a negative way.  I'm sure that it will be something that goes away if I plan to keep at it though.

Well, that wasn't all that cohesive, and I'm really not sure what I was trying to say.  Perhaps, actually, I'm just hoping that someone will tell me that all is not lost and I'll be ok even if my cadence hasn't been optimal...anyone???

ETA: I think there was an optimal cadence discussion going on in the winter cycling plan thread that I was confusing with the discussion here, so i'm waaay off topic

Edited by jsiegs 2011-01-28 2:43 PM
2011-01-28 2:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-27 11:55 AM Hey, I think we need to have a discussion! We need a topic to get group input on. Can be bike swim or run related.

1. Bike nutrition.
2. Wheels.
3. Running shoes.
4. Power training.
5. Anything?

Just trying to stimulate conversation. BTW if anybody hasn't posted in awhile, please by all means you are welcome at any time. Don't feel bad if you've been away a bit as January is a tough month. I'm actually surprised I have been able to train much considering work and illness. I bet you guys are struggling through the same stuff.

Let me know?


I wanted to discuss the "training on a road bike vs. tri bike" debate.  Some are firmly - train what you race, some say the cross over benifit is higher than you thought (thinking about a blog post awhile ago from Jordan Rapp about why triathlete's need a road bike), and some say just train (KISS!).  Since I rarely like to keep things simple (just my nature), I think it's a good topic.  I recently converted from the "all tri bike all the time" camp to the "road bike, when properly fit, is a very good training tool" camp.  I've done my last few trainer rides on my newly fit roadie and have felt good.

Seeing as I basically posted my last post in the wrong forum (was more suited to the discussion in the winter cycling thread), please finish up with that discussion first though and don't let me derail it.  This was just something on my mind I wanted to discuss (i posted about it in the main forum, but didn't have any responses).


2011-01-28 4:17 PM
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2011-01-28 4:19 PM
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2011-01-28 4:21 PM
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2011-01-28 4:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Fred's double posting again.
 
Kathy, great easily to understand answer.
 

I'll give my thought on road vs tri bike.
 
I ride both but would probable be better prepared for a tri if I road a tri bike exclusively.

 
Now time to ride the CT. 


Edited by tasr 2011-01-28 4:36 PM
2011-01-28 4:36 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-28 5:19 PM
jsiegs - 2011-01-28 3:35 PM Been reading the cadence stuff with interest.  Been TDY so I have been busy with work and travel so haven't posted anything though.  Sorry if I'm saying anything already discussed.

I used to bike in the 60-70 range.  That was for touring, no racing or anything, just a cross country trip, it's where I pedaled without ever thinking about it and being a noob roadie.  Did the trip again, and everything I heard was "higher cadence = higher efficiency" so I tried to up it and was probably in the 80's when I did the trip again.  When I had my first race experience years later, I still was hitting the 80's in training but found my cadence in the 90's during the races.  The past year or so, I've been trying to raise my avg cadence in training - I figured if I'm gonna race like that, I should train like that (it's tough, when I get lazy, my cadence drops with the easier effort).  So that's where I am, I've focused holding higher cadence (low 90's), and now my "comfortable" cadence - where I naturally fall generally avgs low 90's  on the trainer this winter.   This year, I my highest race avg was 97 and lowest 92 (very hilly courses though).

I definitely agree with what others have said - my HR is lower at the same power when at a low cadence.  However, I don't currently have the endourance to hold that nearly as long as my higher cadence  (at the same power).  My muscles get tired quicker, and that's why I've kept with the high cadence. But I guess that's just what I'm adapted too.  I know from the 20 min power tests (which do put a strain on my aerobically) I will switch to a harder gear to recover aerobically but it takes a toll on my legs.

It's always been a focus of mine to up the cadence (from personal experience it's very easy to adapt to a new "natural" cadence given time and focus) but it' seems like I should stop that.  Although, I fatigue quicker in my muscular system than my aerobic system (same with running/swimming), so perhaps that is a reason to work low cadence? Or a reason to stick with my cadence now?  I tried it today (well, did my workout a gear harder than I normally would) and ended up at 87 avg, where I'm usually 92-93.  My left upper hammy/butt muscle got a little sore during, nothing that was close to stopping my workout or that will affect anything in the future, but it was interesting to me that that slight change showed up in a negative way.  I'm sure that it will be something that goes away if I plan to keep at it though.

Well, that wasn't all that cohesive, and I'm really not sure what I was trying to say.  Perhaps, actually, I'm just hoping that someone will tell me that all is not lost and I'll be ok even if my cadence hasn't been optimal...anyone???

ETA: I think there was an optimal cadence discussion going on in the winter cycling plan thread that I was confusing with the discussion here, so i'm waaay off topic


Joe, imho the optimal cadence is the one that is natural for you. I am generally a lower cadence guy, so racing at RPM 80 will not be a huge change. The low cadence training is very tough, but can have benefits.


I thought I was too, but I trained myself to be a high cadence guy, so I know I can change what is "natural" to me.  Do you think it's worth training to a lower cadence?  I.e. is the effort worth the benefits?  
2011-01-28 4:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-28 5:21 PM OK, road bike vs tri bike for training.

No right answer, but I will tell you what I do and others can chime in.


I ride the tri bike exclusively until race season is done (Sept.), then I hit my road bike and cross bike for group rides. I am very comfortable on my tri bike and feel like I make the best gains on it. I am also more comfortable in races on it as it is my natural, commonly used bike.

Just my experiences.


Have you ever compared your hip angles between the bikes?  That was the key Rapp was talking about - a road fit hip angle is very close to a tri in aero hip angle.  I've definitely noticed that RPE to maintain watts goes UP when out of aero compared to in aero (so does HR).  On my roadie with very close hip angle (less than a degree difference), my RPE matches my RPE in aero on the tri bike.  So with the specificity and all that of your position, to me, it seems that I retain that as long as you retain hip angle.  Other things obviously come into play like upper body comfort and training yourself to hold an aero position for the race and riding your tri bike is a definite necessity to be successful in a race.  I just feel more comfortable that my training on my road bike now will cross over to my tri bike very well, where before I was convinced there would be losses in fitness.  I also feel I may be better off training on a road bike if I'll be out of aero a lot (lots of hilly riding around me).

Does that make sense, or do you think I'm missing something?
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-28 5:52 PM
jsiegs - I thought I was too, but I trained myself to be a high cadence guy, so I know I can change what is "natural" to me.  Do you think it's worth training to a lower cadence?  I.e. is the effort worth the benefits?  


So let me ask, why did you train yourself to be a 'high cadence' guy?


Because people I was around always said a higher cadence is more efficient. 
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Subject: RE: Fred Doucette's Half-Iron and Ironman Focused Group! -CLOSED!
Fred Doucette - 2011-01-28 5:55 PM

You will get a number of different answers on this one. If you find yourself more comfortable training on the road bike, then do it. However, it takes some adaption to hold the aero position for a race like Eagleman where you should be aero 99% of the race.

A lot of pro's I know ride road bikes more than they ride their tri bike. I also know pro's who exclusively ride tri bikes.

Clearly more than one correct answer here.

As I said, I am a 'ride the tri bike all the time' guy. But that's just me


Very true.  I was curious to see what others do.  Also, if I my logic was bad. 
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