Fast Twitch Tri-FULL (Page 49)

Went for my 1st outdoor ride of the year today.  It was 18C/64F and sunny but with a strong south wind.  After riding the Trainer for 4.5 months the bike felt incredibly light and fast - until I turned into the wind of course.  I'm looking forward to a lot more outdoor rides.

1st place overall today at the inaugural Richard G Snyder YMCA triathlon. Weather was lousy with freezing rain and temperatures just above freezing. Bike course was mushy and made me wish I had my hybrid bike instead of my road bike. Didn't matter though. Had fastest split in all three legs and stayed rubber side down. Small event, but I'll take it for my first overall win. (A little extra satisfaction in beating a couple with matching m-dot tattoos).

Race report

Nice job!

Good on ya'!  That is a terrific way to start the season - in ANY size event.

EDIT: was the swim outside???

Kim and I did a race today, as well.  5k in Plymouth (Pace to a Pint - aptly named, except that Pint should have an "s" at the end).  She knocked 2 minutes off her PR, as did I.  23:23 for her (about which she was over the moon and I was very happy for her).  20:42 for me.  16 or 17 OA, 2nd in AG.  Kim was 6th in her AG in the first race after coming back from splints, so a terrific result.

Garmin showed only 3.0 miles, so might have been generous by about 40 seconds, but I've learned not to trust the Garmin entirely (showed my last sanctioned HM at 13.3 - so the Garmin giveth and the Garmin taketh away).  Even with that, still would have been a PR for both of us!

Anywho, a very fast twitch day for us.  

MATT -

Yes indeed, a very fasttwitch day for the both of you!

Again, what you did (Garminized north, Gaminized south -- doesn't really matter) is a tribute to how well you have run-trained this off-season.  (And has it even been an off-season for the run?)  And by "again", I'm including the half-marathon a few weeks ago..........which combined with the 5km showes that you are currently hot at two ends of the running spectrum.  Thinking about it, that is even further proof of you run-fitness -- and augers well, i would say, for whatever tri distances you tackle this season.

Big congrats to Kim, who has every reason to be flyin' high.  Strong initial returns from tough, nagging injuries are rare -- but oh-so-sweet when they happen.  You must be two very happy cats!

DAVE -

Woo-hoo!  You knocked at that first o.a. spot a coupla times last year, and I was wondering when it might happen for you.  I didn't think it would be this soon, though, just because of the legs woes you suffered through a few months.  Nice recovery, baby!

It is really awesome that you posted the best splits in all three, and while that can't've surprised you to much for the swim, I figure you weren't counting on it happening in both the bike and the run (let alone even one of them?).

Of course, now that you've won the inaugural of a race, it is incumbent of you to keep returning to defend your title.  See you at the RGS '14, right?!?

BEN -

Great ride, both for performance and longevity.  Oh, and mental toughness to go with it, too!  I may have done 2:30 on a trainer.....once......but it was surely along the lines of a LSD ride.  My helmet off to you for doing a TOUGH 2:40 with no "junk miles" element at all, it would seem!

GEORGE -

Still no outside ride for me.........although had I been a bit more motivated alst week, I mighta snuck one in on Tu or We.  I would hate to see March pass without me riding outside at least once, but without any clear race goals on the horizon, it'll have to be a pretty cozy day weather-wise to lure me onto the roads.  Decisions, decisions!

MATT again -

Wait awhile for Icks.  I started with Erik in March '03, and he didn't set me onto my first one until July or August (I looked it up last week, and have already forgotten the date.  Ack!).  Moreover, I had already done a very tough oly (Columbia) and two HIM (Eagleman and Muncie) before that first Icks, so it wasn't as if I had coddled myslef into the season.  I could check back to see just how many bricks he had set me to before the Icks, but it is definitely the kind of workout where in-coming strength is of paramount importance.  It requires a huge effort to carry it through to completion as assigned, so while it could be done at any stage in a season, I guess, the results will not be what is hoped for.

As a sort-of aside, though, i will say that in general i feel that many people do bricks without taking into account that unless theya re in good form in BOTH running and riding, one of the two disciplines will be underplayed in an effort to do well at the other.  that is, a person can ride the bike really hard.......but then struggle through the run.  Or they can plan on a certain run pace................while knowing that to do that pace they will have to soft-pedal somewhat on the ride.  Now, that's okay strategy (mostly) for newcomers who are just using the bricks to get a sense of what it will feel like to run off the bike, but as traithletes get stronger in their skills and more comfortable with how to run well off the bike, bricks can be counterproductive if done just for the sake of the brickness itself. 

So, the further I progressed in this silliness, the more I eithr (a) kept bricks separated by a few eeks, or (b) made sure that every one was clsoe to race-pace for both the bike and the run --- and if I didn't feel like I could handle that (b) option on a day i had sceduled for it, I would just dump the brick notion and settle for either the ride or the run. 

Those last two paragraphs laid out here, though, i willadd that for people who don't have strong performance, doing bricks just for the heck of it is perfectly fine.  Lots of folks just love the feeling of being able to do any sort of combo workout, and I understand that fully.  Too often, too many of us (with me as a prime culprit) can't seem to swim or bike or run without some performance goal attached, and so a good but of the pure fun of it all is lost.  It's been literally YEARS since I did a S or B or R session just for fun.........and that's pathetic if nothing else, yes?

ANYHOW, save Icks for midsummer maybe --- kind of your own midsummer night's dream!

Great job on the race result, & training everyone, liking the good vibs!

Completed my 1st metric century today and had a lot of work fun doing it.

Day started out with a clipped in fall with everyone at the line when I was coming up to it.  I was in the process of doing a very slow U when a volunteer walked across in behind then in front of me and I couldn't unclip fast enough and down I went, someone yelled out "nobody saw that" and everyone start laughing! Kicker is I've never fallen clipped in since I've gotten them 7 years ago, glad that's over with!  Didn't realize until the start when I couldn't get my left foot clipped in that the front of my pedal snapped off and I only had the back part.  luckily I was still able to clip into it with some work.  Cold probably had something to do with it as it was ~45F when it started and bike was on back of the car for the ride there.

First 25 miles I kept it easy and helped the some riders pull 20-21mph. I knew my CPU/sensor batteries needed to be changed but forgot to do it and sure enough ~12 miles into it it stopped updating the speed & distance.  Luckily I had my GPS watch on and was able to use it for my speed pace once it synced up. At the SAG stop I went out with another small group with a friend.  3 of use separated after a steep bridge climb and did 22-23 for about 12 miles doing 2-3 min pulls.  About 25 miles out we came up to a big group that had pulled over for a pit stop and were coming out as we passed.  They caught us and we did some pack riding for a bit.  I quickly found out that I can't stand big 20-30 rider packs.  We were doing an unsteady 22-24 when I decided to pop outside, accelerated up to the front and end up pulling the group for the next 7 miles at 23-24. Not sure what it is but knowing I was out front in a big pack was exhilarating.  When I finally moved over to let someone else take over a lot of riders gave me kudo's for the pull.  

I played in the pack again for a bit then dropped to the back so I could relax and cruise on the aerobars, sure is easy riding at the back end of a big pack.  Later we were all at a light getting ready for a turn when someone said "phew only 6 miles to go", I had no idea!  Once we go going again on a nice straight away I told my buddy lets go and I popped back out and headed for the front to lead the pack to the finish.  I heard someone say "stay with Army" referring to my bright yellow US Army jersey I was wearing. I worked it hard on this leg and brought us back at 24-26, easier to do when you have car traffic giving you some nice side drafts. At the finish I got several high fives and more kudo's for the big pull in.

it was a perfect day for a ride weather wise, mid 40's start but as soon as the sun came up it warmed up quick and was mid 70's by the finish, also had no wind at the start and a building breeze at the end.

Next up, hmm found out there's a full century ride April 21st...

Pulling a whole pack at 22-24 is just mad…  Must be something in the water down south, but we're not anywhere near those speeds up here - often even in season (well, never for me)!  Very nicely done.

Question - did you get any pushback for riding aerobars in/near the pack?  Not sure if that's a cycling snooty thing 'round these parts, or if it's something more common (the roadies get all kinds of flustered if someone shows up in a sleeveless top or short socks, let alone with aeorbars or a tri bike!).

Again, very nicely ridden!

Matt

Sounds like a really good weekend all around.

Dave - very impressive.  I really liked your idea of "surging to landmarks" to go faster.  I'll remember that and try it myself although I won't be fastest.

Ben - I have it on good authority from a fellow I S/B/R with that anyone who spends over 2 hours on the trainer deserves a medal.  After riding the trainer all winter I went outside for a ride on Friday and did it ever feel good.

Matt (and your wife) - phenomenal pace!  Almost half my 5K pace.  I'm working on getting faster and it is coming very slowly.

Donto - I just hate when I've had clipped in falls.  Once, I stopped at a red light and unclipped my right foot but somehow leaned to the left and in slow motion just went over - all you can do is laugh about it.  A fellow told me he fell over once right in front of 4 young girls.  Apparently they laugh really loud.  Falling in front of a bunch of cyclists is not so bad they probably all have been there too.

As I said earlier, I had a great ride on Friday but today when I went into my garage I noticed my tire looked flat and it was.  So somehow I made it home before the tube had completely deflated.

I went for a good run on Saturday.  Based on my pace I'd love to get a chance to see how fast everyone here runs.  You all must look like rockets.

aside: I got an email this evening from my cycling coach who said Jeff Symonds (a fellow in the cycling class) ran Ironman Cabo san Lucas today, his first, and he did it in 8:37 for 4th overall.  He swam in :53, biked in 4:44 and ran in 2:54.

OK - big issue here (for me... and by big, I really mean not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, and actually kind of an awesome "problem" to have, etc.).

Ahem...

So, I just got in to the b2b ride (Harpoon "Brewery to Brewery" from Boston to VT - 148 miles for a beer, and it seems all uphill) for June 15th.  VERY excited to get in, as it is way oversubscribed.

Here's the issue.  I'm training for (another) HM on memorial day with Kim, still using the Higdon advanced plan.  There are 6 days of running: 2 easy, one speed, one tempo/threshold, one race pace and one long per week.  The b2b is 3 weeks after our target HM race in Boston on Memorial day weekend.

Part of me wants to really try for a PR at the HM and put all this winter base running and racing to use to see just how fast I can get running, partly because running has been proportionally my worst of the 3 disciplines (although that might be evening out with the winter's work).  It's a dangerous drug, these modest successes... but big ones for me historically, as I'm running as fast as I ever have.

BUT, nothing in me wants to try that ride and DNF.  Just not an option unless I wreck (or something similarly terrible - fingers crossed, as ever), but just not because my saddle/legs/neck can't handle it.

So, if I ride enough to be solid on b2b, can I run enough to slay the HM?  If I just drop the 2 easy 3 mile runs each week and put in a 1-2 hour ride, then use my Friday day "off" for some biking intensity, and maybe a long one on Saturday (???) after the "race pace" run, will that do?

I'm new to trying to do all this, rather than focusing on a sport for an event (unless it's a tri, in which case the training is deliberately trying to get pretty good at three, rather than really good at one), so I'm wondering what thoughts' y'all might have.

Guessing that I'll just have to pull back on my HM expectations (and training) and do enough to finish well but maybe not run the best race I could, and start a bike focused training block instead.  It would be kind of nice to try running a race just for fun (they're all fun, but training to be the best I can at that point usually means focusing on the sport)

If I did that, would that set me up well for the tri season, you think?  Again, really feeling a bit at sea figuring this out...

I might post up on the general page and get flamed there... errrr... I mean solicit others' opinions, but wanted to get the fast-twitchers' thoughts.  Any of you awesome cyclists (you know who you are) or natural coaches (you know who you are) have any ideas?

Thanks!

And like I said, kind of awesome "problems" to have. 

Best,

Matt

Thanks, I surprised myself! Here's the kicker, we were the "B" group.  I heard the "A" group averaged 26 mph for the whole ride

When I was in the pack I was always upright with finger tips on the brakes.  Was only down on the AB when out front or in the back off a few lengths.  There were several tri-bikes there and some RB with aerobars.

It was my first organized ride.  I've ridden a few times with some roadies and they're pretty cool around here.  Showed me the ropes 1st time I hooked up with them (small group about 8 or so). We have a fairly active Tri and Bike scene and everyone seems to know one another.

When I was HM training for PR I couldn't even think about the bike.  IMHO you said it all right here:

Guessing that I'll just have to pull back on my HM expectations (and training) and do enough to finish well but maybe not run the best race I could, and start a bike focused training block instead.  It would be kind of nice to try running a race just for fun (they're all fun, but training to be the best I can at that point usually means focusing on the sport)

If a solid tri season is the goal then yes it would set you up nicely.

If I did that, would that set me up well for the tri season, you think?  Again, really feeling a bit at sea figuring this out...

Sounds like an awesome ride, finish line beer is a strong motivator!

I had a good day today.

In the pool I was swimming with a friend and we swam 10# 200m (2100m with cool down).  I was tired by the end but felt pretty good and even managed to keep up (without drafting) up until the last length.

Then this afternoon I ran 8# intervals and this really felt good.  When I was running my fast part of the interval I was running easily and not feeling like I was working too hard.  I was amazed that I was quite comfortable and constantly had to fight the urge to bump up my numbers or add 1 or 2 more intervals.

As I was finishing my last interval and I slowed down to a walk I felt like I could do more.  I was sweating hard but I felt invigorated not fatigued.

So, should I add another .2 to .4mph to my pace or should I add 1 or 2 more intervals?  I only do them once a week.  I'm thinking I should do a bit of both and add a bit of speed and add an interval (or two).

Well the ankle seems to be completely healed after a trail running mishap last December. I've decided to try to get in lots of shorter runs and a long run on the weekend to try to build back up for racing in May. I've put on weight and lost a lot of speed but feel pretty good otherwise. 

I also bought a pair of Zoot shoes for my crazy trail relay race in May. Last year I had to run through a creek so will probably put the water-shedding claim that Zoot makes to the test.

Congrats on your nice finish Dave.

Happy training!

Maybe this was explained earlier, but not really sure what the run looks like? Usually I see them as # of intervals x duration of each @ Intensity with recovery duration. Duration could be distance or time based (for the interval & recovery). Intensity could be pace based or HR based. Like not too long ago I did 4 x 5 min @6:00/mi (aka t-pace for me) with 1 min jogging recovery. Asking because it'd be helpful to see what you're trying to accomplish with the workout. You might not know, but if you know what it's supposed to look like then the intent may be figured out in more detail.

MATT -

I'm on it!  For starters, I have printed off the course map and the rest stop arrival grid; I'll look at those later.  And from there I'll think about balancing prepping for the HM with doing b2b.  It's a shame they aren't further apart in timing; any HM closer to now than the one you're aiming for?

The elevation chart for b2b is a hoot, intervaled in 11.6 mile segments.  Yes, it gives one a good idea of elevation fluxuations.......but it's all the finer detail in each 11.6 mile block that is worrisome.  I look at the plan map, and think what you are thinking -- nothing along that route will be flat for long!  So, this is a great example of "the devil's in the details", huh?

And when they say it's not, by design, for everyone, they aren't kidding -- no room for anyone planning slower than 16mph, and groups for 20 and 21 and 22 mph, for that distance, in that terrain.  Serious enterprise, b2b!!

Later!

Hi Ben - "@6:00/mi" - I doubt I'll ever be that fast!  Wow!  Okay, I'm a LOT slower but my routine is similar to what you describe.  Each interval is: Walking .15mile at 4.0mph; Jogging .10mile at 5.4mph; Running .25mile at 6.4mph.  I often feel I'd like to skip the jogging part and run .35mile instead of the .25mile.

The routine is intended to make me faster over time without resulting in any injuries.  I'm just feeling I might be ready to bump up my speed a bit higher again.  I'm feeling pretty good on the running and I'm intending to make it more of a priority as I'd like to get faster and to run further - and dare I say, easier.

I've been running these intervals once a week and now that I can comfortably run outside I've been running hills once a week as well and a longer (90minutes) run on Saturdays.

Since you're only doing a few minutes at a time, I'd figure out how to run longer. I don't really do the 5 min or so nearly as often as say 20 min straight, or 2 x 15 min or so. Also, how are you establishing the pace? I've used HR quite a bit and figured out what my threshold was looking over training and races. I'll have the estimated threshold pace based off what my HR is doing in workouts like this. For me, these workouts aren't just for "faster", but I'm targeting improvement at threshold with them.

And do keep in mind that this has just been looking at how to run the intervals, or something harder. Not sure sure how much running you're doing overall or if it's appropriate.

I'll second watching out that the intervals are appropriate for the overall training load, as pushing too many intervals too hard and too early can lead to decrements in performance or injury.  Just make sure you recover well.

As for the target speeds/durations, one way to approach it is to look at your current fitness and paces (do a mile TT or run a 5k) and set your target interval speeds off that.  McMillan is limited, but I've found the calculator gives a decent idea of paces for the shorter intervals (way speedier than most other sites, but for me it's been closer to what I feel like I can/should run).  Grain of salt alert - many folks here would argue against going that fast, as it's more a dedicated runner set of speeds, but that's mostly what I was doing this winter.  We'll see if those paces hold while mixing in other workouts for 60% of my time rather than 25% of my time (as the winter split was 75% run or so).

Basing off a recent time trial has worked well for me, as I otherwise just guess at the times and always run too fast on the short stuff and would run a bit too slow on the medium stuff (threshold or tempo runs - and THESE have really helped pick up my race times, I think).

The other thing to mention, I think, is that it's actually somewhat wise to finish tuckered out but fresh - if that makes sense.  The workouts where I know I've put in a really solid effort but after which I'm not shattered have let me continue to train at intensity.  The ones (like Saturday/Sunday/Monday this week - I'm really such a doofus) where I go hard/fast, then go hard/long, then get a morning brutal "massage" and go all sprinty on the bike in the afternoon instead of doing a recovery ride as planned) leave me less than capable of hitting my key workouts.  I actually chose to skip a speed workout yesterday altogether because my right quad was in pain - stupid on my part, but I'm learning. 

I would have been much better served to leave just enough in the tank to "prime" the engine for the next hard workout and be able to hit it as hard as planned.  Just a thought to work in to your approach.

Anyway, I'm likely the last person that should be giving advice (I'm actually thinking about a coach - to which I seem to have antibodies - as it's been hard to figure out how to max out all my workouts, hit every race as an A race, spend lots of time with the family and, oh yeah, work!), so caveat recipientis (as you certainly didn't buy this!).

Good luck!

Using your current fitness is exactly how you should base any of your efforts. A 5k or 10k is great for this. Anything that takes 20 min or more should be very helpful. Though do be careful of going too long as you won't actually get high enough. 10k is far enough.

Going fast isn't completely yes/no, not so black or white. At least with the smarter ones, they know that going fast is supposed to be worked in along with all the easier running for a balanced program. And that it's not nearly as necessary as many think to be able to run fast. My speed increases track with consistently putting in run volume much more than anything else. Whether I put in harder efforts or not has much less of an effect than just running a bunch of miles day in, day out, week after week after week.

And with the intervals, do know what you're trying to do with them. I mentioned T-pace with my example because I tend to do threshold workouts more often than VO2. The setup I  used is like the cruise intervals for Daniels or McMillan calculations. And those are a variation of Tempos or threshold running. They're all run about threshold (a little over or under). The spacing on these is close together so that the lactate levels (and anything else going on inside) doesn't drop much, but still give the muscles a quick recovery. Not too different from how we set up swim sets. 1-2 minutes recovery at most with 5 minutes or more at the harder effort.

Both of them also have Interval pacing for 400-1200s. These are VO2 intervals. They're run with more equal work and recovery. The work effort is higher because the VO2 max condition occurs above threshold, so you have to run faster to trigger this condition. Came across a great Daniels article explaining this, a pdf exert from his book. Will see if I can find it again. It's somewhere in the Utopia group.

For both types though, generally you want to run just fast enough to trigger the condition so you can spend more time there. Going much higher doesn't necessarily work the point much harder (if any), but you have to work much harder to maintain it. Because of that you can't get as much time in at thishigher level since fatigue comes on much sooner.