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2009-03-13 11:55 AM
in reply to: #2015933

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
gsmacleod - 2009-03-13 11:37 AM

Wolff27 - 2009-03-13 1:11 PM

Teachers have 2 1/2 to 3 months over the summer; 2 weeks over Winter Break; 1 week of Spring break. That breaks down to 9 months.

Just to give you some numbers to work with in terms of your nine month time frame:

Teachers - work 195 days (in Nova Scotia)

Average Professionals (assume M-F for ease of math) - employed 365 days which include 104 weekend days, 9 stat holidays, 16 vacation days (after 10 years); actual days worked 236.

Therefore a teacher works 83% of the days that another professional would work.  Granted this is still less than an average professional but definitely not the nine months you would like to consider.

Shane

 



In the US there are 180 school days: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_days_are_in_a_school_year.

I am sure this is an average amount.

The average worker works 22 days per month x 12 = 264. Let's take the typical vacation (10 days) company Holiday (10 days being generous) and you are at 244 days.

Teachers have 64 more days off - that is 12+ weeks or 3 months.



2009-03-13 12:01 PM
in reply to: #2015959

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
Wolff27 - 2009-03-13 12:55 PM
gsmacleod - 2009-03-13 11:37 AM

Wolff27 - 2009-03-13 1:11 PM

Teachers have 2 1/2 to 3 months over the summer; 2 weeks over Winter Break; 1 week of Spring break. That breaks down to 9 months.

Just to give you some numbers to work with in terms of your nine month time frame:

Teachers - work 195 days (in Nova Scotia)

Average Professionals (assume M-F for ease of math) - employed 365 days which include 104 weekend days, 9 stat holidays, 16 vacation days (after 10 years); actual days worked 236.

Therefore a teacher works 83% of the days that another professional would work.  Granted this is still less than an average professional but definitely not the nine months you would like to consider.

Shane

 

In the US there are 180 school days: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_days_are_in_a_school_year.I am sure this is an average amount. The average worker works 22 days per month x 12 = 264. Let's take the typical vacation (10 days) company Holiday (10 days being generous) and you are at 244 days. Teachers have 64 more days off - that is 12+ weeks or 3 months.

Note that teachers work more than school days. Pre- and post-planning before and after the school year, plus in service days probably add up to at least 15 more days than that 180 days.

2009-03-13 12:36 PM
in reply to: #2015959

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?

Wolff27 - 2009-03-13 1:55 PM

In the US there are 180 school days: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_days_are_in_a_school_year.

I am sure this is an average amount.

The average worker works 22 days per month x 12 = 264. Let's take the typical vacation (10 days) company Holiday (10 days being generous) and you are at 244 days.

Teachers have 64 more days off - that is 12+ weeks or 3 months.

Our school year is 190 teaching days (includes exams) plus 5 PD days; the school year varies slightly throughout NA but it ranges from 180-190 teaching days.  Depending on the board, district, etc there will be other days the teacher is employed.

I am not arguing that teachers work as many days but to suggest that an average professional works 12 months a year and teachers only work 9 is disingenuous.

Also, I would be surprised to learn of many professionals who only have two weeks vacation.

Shane

2009-03-13 1:06 PM
in reply to: #2016059

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
gsmacleod - 2009-03-13 12:36 PM

Wolff27 - 2009-03-13 1:55 PM

In the US there are 180 school days: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_days_are_in_a_school_year.

I am sure this is an average amount.

The average worker works 22 days per month x 12 = 264. Let's take the typical vacation (10 days) company Holiday (10 days being generous) and you are at 244 days.

Teachers have 64 more days off - that is 12+ weeks or 3 months.

Our school year is 190 teaching days (includes exams) plus 5 PD days; the school year varies slightly throughout NA but it ranges from 180-190 teaching days.  Depending on the board, district, etc there will be other days the teacher is employed.

I am not arguing that teachers work as many days but to suggest that an average professional works 12 months a year and teachers only work 9 is disingenuous.

Also, I would be surprised to learn of many professionals who only have two weeks vacation.

Shane



As mentioned I used 2 1/2 to 3 months.
2009-03-13 2:04 PM
in reply to: #2016124

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?

Wolff27 - 2009-03-13 3:06 PM

As mentioned I used 2 1/2 to 3 months.

Indeed; however, you used 2.5 to 3 months and then state that teachers work nine months while other professionals work twelve. 

In actuality a teacher would work 39 five day weeks and an typical professional would work 47.  Obviously the teacher is employed for fewer weeks but the actual difference is eight weeks as opposed to the three full months you have indicated.

Shane

2009-03-13 2:18 PM
in reply to: #2015549

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
turtlegirl - 2009-03-13 9:15 AM

How about... Student A takes a standardized history test at the beginning of the year and scores a zero. At the end of the year the student retakes the test and scores a 50. Now couldn't you simply take a comparison of all students accross your state or even the nation that also scored a zero at the beginning and see how they compare at the end of year? If the teacher's progress is in the top 5% nationwide, I think we could agree that's a quality teacher. Yes, teaching is a two way street and measuring performance isn't perfect. It isn't in any profession. But while measuring performance during any 1 year may be flawed, over time I think we could effectively identify the top end teaching talent.

 

Student A can't take the test twice. It ruins the validity of the test.  Anyone with a teaching and testing background will tell you that the student will undoubtedly become more familiar with the format from seeing it already once and will benefit the second time they see the test.  That is the huge problem with all standardized tests.  Why else do you think we spend SO MUCH TIME practicing test taking? Because our principals' jobs are on the line based on how our students score.  

Instead of practicing taking tests, we should be spending time on material.  And because of "No Parent Held Responsible" as we like to call it at my school, all the emphasis has switched from curriculum to making kids saavy to test taking strategies. Ridiculous.



-------------------------------------------------------

I think you are taking testing example above a bit out of context. The point of the post was to come up with a way to identify the best teachers given the fact that some teachers get stuck with poor students.

Also, the example was off the top of my head with all of about 20 seconds of thought. You can't tell me we can't come up with a workable solutions that rewards the BEST teachers.








Edited by DB 2009-03-13 2:20 PM


2009-03-13 2:19 PM
in reply to: #2011802

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?

Here are the main things I have done since college:

1.  inner-city public school teacher

2.  law student at #3 law school in the country

3.  law firm associate (big firm and mid-sized firm both)

4.  law professor

Guess which one was the most difficult, hands down?   I have HUGE respect for teachers. 

2009-03-13 2:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
gsmacleod - 2009-03-13 12:36 PM

Also, I would be surprised to learn of many professionals who only have two weeks vacation.

Shane

I read this quote and knew you were Canadian before I looked....  Many American companies are pretty stingy with vacay.

2009-03-13 2:57 PM
in reply to: #2016428

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
bootygirl - 2009-03-13 3:54 PM

gsmacleod - 2009-03-13 12:36 PM

Also, I would be surprised to learn of many professionals who only have two weeks vacation.

Shane

I read this quote and knew you were Canadian before I looked....  Many American companies are pretty stingy with vacay.



America has the fewest vacation days of any industrialized country, I believe.
2009-03-13 3:25 PM
in reply to: #2016438

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
D.Z. - 2009-03-13 4:57 PM
bootygirl - 2009-03-13 3:54 PM

I read this quote and knew you were Canadian before I looked....  Many American companies are pretty stingy with vacay.

America has the fewest vacation days of any industrialized country, I believe.

Really?  Two weeks? 

We always hear how bad we have things compared to European countries; I didn't realize that two weeks would be the norm in the US.

How many stat holidays do you have (I realize it probably varies by state)?

BTW - I took the 16 days from the US Dept of Labor for the average professional with 10 years experience.

Shane

2009-03-13 4:02 PM
in reply to: #2016525

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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
gsmacleod - 2009-03-13 3:25 PM
D.Z. - 2009-03-13 4:57 PM
bootygirl - 2009-03-13 3:54 PM

I read this quote and knew you were Canadian before I looked....  Many American companies are pretty stingy with vacay.

America has the fewest vacation days of any industrialized country, I believe.

Really?  Two weeks? 

We always hear how bad we have things compared to European countries; I didn't realize that two weeks would be the norm in the US.

How many stat holidays do you have (I realize it probably varies by state)?

BTW - I took the 16 days from the US Dept of Labor for the average professional with 10 years experience.

Shane

There are always conditions.....  one often starts with none, works up to 1, then 2 then 3 weeks....   but it is seniority with the same employer, not just 10 years experience in the business.  So in the world of lateral moves, few professionals stay with a company long enough to get the longer vacay packages.

I have 11 stat holidays which is more than most companies- probably to keep us equal to the Canadians as the company mothership is in Canada.  but also way fewer than federal employees.



2009-03-13 4:17 PM
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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
gsmacleod - 2009-03-13 2:04 PM

Wolff27 - 2009-03-13 3:06 PM

As mentioned I used 2 1/2 to 3 months.

Indeed; however, you used 2.5 to 3 months and then state that teachers work nine months while other professionals work twelve. 

In actuality a teacher would work 39 five day weeks and an typical professional would work 47.  Obviously the teacher is employed for fewer weeks but the actual difference is eight weeks as opposed to the three full months you have indicated.

Shane



Deferring to even 10 months (thought I would say at least 2.5) the typical teacher compares their 10 months of pay to 12 months for someone else.

I also find it interesting that no commentary about he lucrative pension plans have been brought up. And those must be considered.

I would take a paycut if I knew I would get 90% of my pay for life after I retired.
2009-03-13 4:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?

run4yrlif - 2009-03-13 12:01 PM Note that teachers work more than school days. Pre- and post-planning before and after the school year, plus in service days probably add up to at least 15 more days than that 180 days.

 

And so does any other hard working professional. Calls on weekends, travel on Sunday's and Saturdays, late nights, early mornings, reading reports, reading books, taking classes, calling coworkers after hours, writing reports, preparing for presentations... The list goes on. Teachers are not in any way unique and are in a lot of cases put in less time.



Edited by Indiana_Geoff 2009-03-13 4:22 PM
2009-03-13 4:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
Wolff27 - 2009-03-13 6:17 PMDeferring to even 10 months (thought I would say at least 2.5) the typical teacher compares their 10 months of pay to 12 months for someone else.I also find it interesting that no commentary about he lucrative pension plans have been brought up. And those must be considered.I would take a paycut if I knew I would get 90% of my pay for life after I retired.
The problem (at least in Canada) is that if I want to work in the summer, in order not to end up working for nothing (due to taxes) I need a decent paying job. For many, that is just not a realistic thing as who wants an employee for 2 months a year?I love my job and wouldn't want to do anything else but the first few years were very tough and if not for a good second job (Canadian Forces Reserve) I would not have been able to make ends meet. As far as the pension, we can definitely discuss that; I get 60% after 30 years and can max out at 70% after 35. A good pension and it is a huge benefit, however the average teacher life expectancy after retirement is only around 7 years (I plan to collect for many years ). Also, our plan is not indexed right now (plan is less than 100% funded) so that is quite a downside. Ultimately, I think I am paid fairly well after 8 years of honing my craft. It drives me crazy that I try to ensure that every student who walks in my door learns something of value in the five months I see them, spend lots of time giving extra help, volunteering for committees and coach two sports while I have colleagues who do little of that and make more than I do. In the end, I would love to see teachers held to account, but if we are going to get rid of the chaff, we really need to offer a salary that will attract some of the best and brightest. For too long NA has believed that those who can do and those who can't teach. Shane

Edited by gsmacleod 2009-03-13 5:12 PM
2009-03-13 5:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
bootygirl - 2009-03-13 5:02 PM
gsmacleod - 2009-03-13 3:25 PM
D.Z. - 2009-03-13 4:57 PM
bootygirl - 2009-03-13 3:54 PM

I read this quote and knew you were Canadian before I looked....  Many American companies are pretty stingy with vacay.

America has the fewest vacation days of any industrialized country, I believe.

Really?  Two weeks? 

We always hear how bad we have things compared to European countries; I didn't realize that two weeks would be the norm in the US.

How many stat holidays do you have (I realize it probably varies by state)?

BTW - I took the 16 days from the US Dept of Labor for the average professional with 10 years experience.

Shane

There are always conditions.....  one often starts with none, works up to 1, then 2 then 3 weeks....   but it is seniority with the same employer, not just 10 years experience in the business.  So in the world of lateral moves, few professionals stay with a company long enough to get the longer vacay packages.

I have 11 stat holidays which is more than most companies- probably to keep us equal to the Canadians as the company mothership is in Canada.  but also way fewer than federal employees.

I've never heard of a "professional" position starting with zero or 1 week of vacation.  So you have somewhere to back up the assertion that professionals "often" start with no vacation or one week?  One or two examples doesn't back this up, fyi.

2009-03-13 6:28 PM
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Subject: RE: Why are teachers paid so poorly in the USA?
turtlegirl - 2009-03-13 10:22 AM

The problem is the degeneration of the family.  Its getting divorced and abandoning the kids. Its working 80 hours a week to afford material possessions.  Its babies having babies.

We didn't have such a crisis back in the 50s...if only we could go back to where a parent stayed at home and GASP parents stayed together and involved in their kids' lives!!




^I totally agree turtlegirl.

I was a full-time substitute teacher for about a year and a half between my undergrad and grad schooling. (Kindergarten was the most tiring by the way!) Anyhow, like most professions, some are paid too little, some are paid too much. I don't have any solutions, but I do know one thing. Teachers are important...but not half as important as parents.

I still love the idea of alternative schools for troubled kids. Get the trouble-makers out of the schools.

Here's my other idea...hold parents responsible for their kids' actions. Perhaps some parental accountability is what we're missing nowadays, eh? In my eyes, the expectations on teachers are too high...and with parents way, way, way too low.



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