Brian's group - FULL (Page 5)

That's very cool that you learned flip turns so fast! I've tried several times before to learn how to do them but always gave up because I always got water up my nose... you've inspired me to try again  

Blow a little air out of your nose as you turn. 

I remember learning flip turns as a kid and getting water up my nose.  I used to complain about how you were basically just scooping up the water with your nose. 

Thanks Katie! My problem is i run short on air... need to get in better swimming shape I guess. But I'm waddling like a duck from my race on Sunday, so now would be a good time for me to work on my swimming 

Hi guys,

On tumble turns...(sorry "flip turns" ha ha). I've seen debate on some of the BT threads with some people suggesting that "flip turns" are "cheating" for triathlon training. Presumably this is based on an assumption that you get a better push off the wall from a flip turn than a normal turn. I think this is bonkers (not to be confused with "bonking" :-)). I find adding flip turns makes the work out harder (although this may just be because I am lousy at flip turns), which would suggest when I am not doing them I am getting a short "rest" at each end of the pool. I'm trying to increase the number of flip turns I'm doing in my swim sessions.  


On another topic, I found an article on speed sessions for running, and thought it looked good.  I've reached a point where my "volume" is up to the maximum prescribed in the Sprint training plan I'm doing, and am now going to start trying to work a bit on running speed and strength (probably every fourth running session from here in). I did some hill repeats yesterday, and although at the end of each sprint I felt I'd worked incredibly hard (gasping for air, heart thumping), the overall session (because of the recoveries) felt like I hadn't done much. BUT whoa! last night I couldn't keep my eyes open past 8.30pm and slept for 10 hours, and today my shins and buttocks hurt - completely different to my regular run! Link to the article is below in case it is relevant or interesting to you. Cheers.


http://www.220triathlon.com/train/30-speedwork-sessions

Ugh ... folks will carry on about the most miniscule things. Rest assured that you are getting a good workout if you are doing flip-turns (and that, if I could execute them reasonable well then I would do the same).  Further, I think that balling up your back during the turn might actually be a helpful stretch?




Note that you said that you were able to do the top volume of your plan without problem before doing any sort of 'speed work'.  Very important to make sure you are comfortable with the volume first ... and that your "sprint" or "speed" workouts have less volume than your regular work-out. 

A simple axiom to remember is that as intensity increases, volume or duration decreases.  To do otherwise is to invite injury ... which will negate whatever gains you have made. (As triathletes we sometimes tend push the envelop a little ... )


edited for formatting mistakes!

Edited by brian 2010-05-04 8:00 AM

I have been playing this in my head...I was told that the pool I swim in is 25yds one way. I went down and back, down and back, that is 100yds, correct? After reading  other responses and times I am now wondering if I timed myself wrong.  I was on the Navy swim team in college years ago for only my freshman year. I have never competed since. So I am just going to do that one over. I will say my heart was trying to break out of my skin afterwards. But I am thinking that if 1:20 is crazy fast then, I must have messed up. That is my plan for tomorrow, I'll keep you all posted. 

My 'inspires" broke. I am not able to read mine or send any. Just know that all of you working your booty off, I am INSPIRED! 

Pool lengths differ, so be sure to ask someone knowledgable on staff (Aquatics Director?) about the length of the pool.  That said, generally speaking the length is either 25 yards or meters ... and the difference between the two add up .  If you did four lengths of the pool then you probably did 100 yards/meters.

I say "probably" because one day when the lanes were crowded at Lifetime Fitness I swam in the deep end of the "big pool" where they have swim lessons, aqua-aerobics and the such.  I was cruising through the workout and flying through the water ... or so I thought.  Halfway through the workout I got suspicious about my prowness in the pool, so I got out and paced the length of the big pool and then that of the lap pool ... turned out to be 18 paces vs. 24 paces.

Doh!

Cheeks, FYI:  I definitely think it is possible that you did 1:20 for a 100 yd time trial since you have a swimming background.  That time wouldn't be fast in a meet but conditions are totally different there (adrenaline, starting blocks, taper, etc.).  When I started doing masters swimming in December I could not push myself to go faster than 1:20 in practice, even if it was an all out sprint set, which was a real bummer for me because I could swim :56 in college (in meets).  So...to summarize.....that is certainly a physically acheivable time and what makes it "crazy fast" is that it is hard to push yourself that fast by yourself in a pool, not that it is "crazy" that you could be swimming that fast.   

It would be sweet if it is accurate. But I really need to make sure before I continue. After looking at the more experienced swimmers on here, I find it hard to believe I could be anywhere close to that pace. Simply because I haven't been training in the water much yet. 

I did post this, but I do not see it up here so it must be lost in cyberspace so I am gonna post again:
Does anyone have any swim workout suggestions to get me started? My training plan is vague, I may need to upgrade. All it says to do is swim 30 min.  Ummm... okay. 

Well, you can always steal from the occasional swim workouts that I post in my logs.  Other than that, one of my favorite things to do when I'm hopping in the pool alone are "vitamin" swims.  I get bored pretty easily so they break up long, continuous swims into something more manageable. 

Here is a 500 "vitamin" swim (this is a continuous swim)
5 lengths smooth
1 length fast
4 lengths smooth
1 length fast
3 lengths smooth
1 length fast
2 lengths smooth
1 length fast
1 length smooth
1 length fast

You can build that up to longer ones easily by starting with a different number of smooth lengths and there should be no doubt in your mind that you got a good workout in by the time you get to the end.

Oh, and I know the Kiefer posts weekly swim workouts on their website, www.kiefer.com

The best way is to look at other's logs to see what they are doing and then copy it down. 

That said, just because people can swim long distances doesn't mean that they do it well. I am a prime example of someone who is "stuck" in the 1:38-1:42/100 yd range because my form suffers ... but my aerobic endurance has been built up to log some long yardage. 

It sounds like you have good swim form and will soon see your aerobic endurance increase quickly!

Cheeks...  My swim time is terrible, but I seriously other than doggie paddle, have NEVER swam in my life until about a month ago.. So I am very happy with where I am.  I have no doubt that  with a swimming background you can do that.  My training partner, who is a master's swim coach, says I have naturally good form.  I am getting faster.  My last timed one was 2:10 for 100 yds, but I am just learning to get my head all the way down and breathing.  It is a lot to take in as a beginner, but I am loving it :-). 

I am excited.  My friend gave me a polar heart rate monitor and watch.  So now I can see how I am getting my heart rate up during workouts.  I prefer to do my running and biking outside, rather than the gym.  I know in the winter I will have to be there.

I am going to try to work on getting over my fear of open water.  How is the best way to do this?  I am ok in the pool.  I want to do an olympic distance in December in Fl.  The swim is in the ocean.  That seriously makes me really nervous.  Any suggestions would be helpful!

Thanks,
Amber

Good for you Amber! You can do it, just put in the prep work so you feel more comfortable. I probably shouldn't be giving swimming advice, but maybe since it's been so hard for me I can pass on what's helped me. When I started training for triathlon my freshmen year in highschool I could barely make it across the 25 yd pool, let alone put my face in the water. I just had to put in the time and keep pushing myself. I took a lot of breaks in between laps, and then cut them down as I got more comfortable with the water. What really helped me a lot was when random swimmers would take pity on my struggling and give me advice. Taking some sort of swimming class would probably be more efficient though  Anyways a year later I tried my first Olympic length triathlon with an open water swim, and while I was one of the last out of the water I survived  So I would say just start putting the time in and then get as much advice on technique as you can, and as for the open water try playing around in the open water to get a feel for it (hopefully you can get to a reasonably warm body of water) (with swimming buddies of course ). Oh and you'll probably want to look into getting a tri wetsuit. 

Ok I've been remiss on my training log, due to being quite sore from my race on Sunday, but tomorrow morning I will get up at 5:45 so I can finally time my 100yd (if I post this here then I have to do it!) and also get a bike ride in. Btw I finally got fitted to my bike tonight, which is what took up the time I had reserved for my running workout, but I think it's a good investment. They got my bike computer working again, told me I should get my front wheel "trued" or "trewed" or something like that and taught me some stuff about proper pedaling technique.

Question: How important is strength/core training? Ok I know I should be doing it but what is the minimum time/times per week I should be spending on it? 

Amber,
Best advice for getting over fear of swimming in open water is.....swimming in open water.  Check your local forum and see if anyone is organizing any open water swims in your area.  If that doesn't pan out, practice swimming with "turbulence" in your lane.  You can get your training partner to splash and thrash as they swim next to you in the same lane (won't work if you are separated by a lane line).  And then, if you can, get out to a local lake and just swim inside the designated swim area so you can practice swimming where you can't see where you're going in the water.  You'll have to lift your head occasionally to check for the swim area bouys (sighting).

Swimming in open water isn't that difficult.  It is just a little different and it is a mental game.  I've known people who literally had panic attacks the first time we went out to practice.  They still did the race and did just fine but any element you can get familiar with before race day, the better off you'll be. 

I actually had a moment of fear when I did a tri once.  It was the Chicago Triathlon (sprint) and the start was in deep water.  So they have you get into the harbor and tread water for a minute or two before they start you.  We were crammed in, so as people were treading water all around, it felt like people were pulling on you.  Not fun.  Luckily, that is the only time I've ever had to do a start like that.  Beach starts are waaaaay better. 

Precisely the reason to go to a Masters swim program.  I followed the same swim program as above but it took me a lot longer to be able to swim 2:00/100 yds.  I then went to a Masters program and learned more in one week - and "gained" :10 off my 100 yd time - than I had in 14 months of swimming on my own.



Swimming makes some of the best 'active recovery' that works out the tightness in your muscles while flushing out the lactic acid + other byproducts from your system.  I always feel "fresher" after the first swim post-hard/intense work-out (be it a race or hard interval sets at the track).



How did it go? What did they do to fix your fit? How much of a change?

Btw, needing to have your wheel "trued" is pretty normal - especially after considerable amount of use.  You will be thankful that they did as it likely has rubbed across your brake pad during a normal rotation (or on it's way to doing that) ... something that robs you of the power (and speed) you have put into the pedal stroke.

Good on you for getting it done!

Question: How important is strength/core training? Ok I know I should be doing it but what is the minimum time/times per week I should be spending on it? 

... but there is a catch (of course!) and it is that you have to have completed 2 of the 3 below in order to ask your question:

1) Answered the questions highlighted in yellow;
2) Done two fo the three fitness benchmark workouts highlighted in orange;
- and/or -
3) Have a full week of workouts in your log* - or - have delivered an "inspire" to each member of the training group.

Questions - lay 'em on ... and I will do my best to give you a thorough response and then follow-up with any ensuing follow-up questions.

* Even if you miss a day, you must have something in your log for that day. If you miussed a workout then preferably the post should cite the reason why you did not workout that day ... hopefully that will be helpful to you in thinking through why you missed it (e.g. when I found myself missing workouts due to being busy, it dawned on me when I looked back that I just wasn't "scheduling" them during the day but instead trying to squeeze them in between this and that.  When I started scheduling the workout the day before then things fell into place.)

Shameless way to try get you all motivated but ... then again ... I am a dork!

Ready, Set ... GO!

Definitely shameless.  And the color coding was especially nice.

Question:

Where should your heartrate be for Olympic distance in the bike and the run and for a HIM distance bike and run? 

I've got a basic understanding for a full IM (Zone 2 on bike, high Zone 2 first 8 miles or so on the run, then up to Zone 3).  I didn't use HR training when I was doing sprints so real-time numerical feedback on the course is a new concept for me.

Ok here's my swim time for 100 yds (finally!)

1:25

It could be a few seconds off because I had to use the big clock on the wall instead of a watch

Yeah I know I should have been swimming. I have an excuse this time though because our pool was closed for construction

 For my bike fit they moved the seat up about an inch and moved it back quite a bit. They said after I get used to it to move it up about a third of an inch at a time until it feels right. I haven't gone on a long ride (I will later today though) but it already feels better because I'm not as hunched up. They also gave me some tips on posture; I guess I was too hunched over. All in all it was extremely helpful. I also learned where the reset button is on my bike computer - very nice to have a working one again!

Thanks for the tips on strength training. I'll try to work some of that in, and probably more stretching too; I'm not very flexible. 

OK my question day question:

Can you talk about and give some advice on race nutrition - and by this I mean the build up to the day, pre-race on the day itself, the race itself, and post race. I guess this will depend on the event, so from my point of view can we say for an Olympic distance event?

Okay, first things first ... pacing is, first and foremost, relative to fitness and the muscular endurance you have created through your training.  For instance, it is possible for you to run a marathon in Zone 2 yet run out of gas/hit the wall. have the wheels fly off completely + crash and burn at Mile 15 if you have only trained for 10k's leading up to it.

This is a round-a-bout (sp?) way of saying that this answer is predicated to you specifically, who has a bunch o' miles and hours in your legs already' and not one for those who do not have the same consistent volume that you have amassed over the months and months of consistent training.
 
That said, pacing is personal.  Without the benefit of knowing the details of your fitness over a period of months I would generically say that for an athlete that is in the midst of IM training and therefore commonly does the 0.93 mi swim (in your case, you could probably hold your breath that long!), the 24+ mile bike and then 10k I would say that Zone 4 all the way through each discipline.

You have the "hay in the barn" from commonly accomplishing those distance during your training, it is now just a matter of how you mete out your "hay" over the course of the three events.  There are two type of energy production for your body: stored energy (which fuels aereobic energy) and expendable energy (anaerobic energy).  You have a finite amount of the latter and use a mixture of both when exercising. 

Given that even the skinniest person has a huge supply of fat cells at their disposal when tasked with exercise it is far more productive to be aerobic as it metes out your energy longer.  Zone 5, by definition, is when your body turns anaerobic and looses the efficiency of using your stored energy ... as such it should be avoided until you are close enough to the finish line that you feel certain that you will not blow up prior to crossing the timing mat! (Then you can crumble ... )

For my HIM last weekend, I stayed at the Zone2/3 barrier almost entirely through the race.  For the bike I spent 2/3rd in high Zone 2 and 1/3rd in Zone 3, for the run it was 1/3 Zone 2, 1/2 in Zone 3 and then 8:45 in Zone 4 during the final 9:56 of the race  -which nearly killed me at that point as muscularly I was c-o-o-k-e-d!  

In summary, Zone 4 for the Oly with the last miles of the run being flat out. For the HIM, Zone2/3 barrier for both - while paying attention to your RPE (rate of perceived exertion).

Prediction:  You will feel much faster during this ride as you will have the full power of the pedal stroke to propel you forward.  Having a seat post too low is a very common problem.

If inflexible and needing core work then you might want to check out yoga ... I am huuuuge believer in the benefits of adding yoga to your training. It not only creates core conditioning but also injury prevention through limbering up your hamstrings, glutes, quads and back.

Rod,

The only subject that is more personalized than "pacing" is nutrition.  What works for me might not work for you.  That said, here are some basic but generic things you should know:

- You can never replentish the amount of calories you burn while exercising, instead you can only hope to replace some of them. (Think of that math word problem that haunted us in high school where you had to calculate the rate a bucket fills up vs. the rate water leaks out of a hole.)
- It typically takes 45 minutes for the body to digest complex cards and therefore for you to receive the benefits of most nutrition. That said, simple sugars are absorbed quicker - but also contribute to a 'sugar crash' after your body expends those calories.  This is why you need to take in both simple and complex carbs throughout your race.
- Some 9 out of 10 times dehydration has more of an impact on your peformance than fueling ... yet most folks blame their caloric intake instead of hydration strategy when they start to run out of energy.
- Simple water is necessary throughout a race; don't just load-up on hydration loaded up on product.  I picked this up by reading an extensive interview of Peter Reid after he retired from IM distance racing to focus on coaching.  I used to be guilty of only drinking product throughout a race, now I mix it up with just plain water and have felt the difference.
- While remembering the caveat in item #2 above (time it takes to ingest nutrition), the rule of thumb for caloric intake for longer races is that you should not exceed 2 calories per pound of body weight ... with may believing the calories should be less, not more than that.

Leading up to the race, I stay away from "heavy" things like meats, cream sauce and the such. I instead eat things that I think will be easily digestable.  I also focus on hydrating, making certain that my urine is pale in color.  Alas, I also shy away from beer  ... and while I do not drink any other alcoholic beverages if I did I would stay away from them as well.  I also eat early the night before, hopefully by 6:00 pm.

For breakfast on race day or any long workout I typically have a bowl of oatmeal and a container of yogurt. If feeling "saucey" I'll eat granola with yogurt mixed in.  The idea is to get in some complex carb.  The coffee I drink is purely a necessity!

During an Oly I will drink plain water (being certain to urinate prior to race start) and eat a Gu gel prior to the swim. 

When out of the water I will eat another Gu and wash it down with plain water within the first 3-4 miles of the bike.  I will also take a SaltStick tab for soldium/electrolytes while switching to "loaded" hydration (Gu2O or Powerbar Endurance).  The idea here is that I want to replentish the hydration lost whilst swimming and remain hydrated for the bike while setting myself up for the run.

During the 10k run I always take two cups - one is always water to pour on my head/cool down the body - and the other alternate between Gatorade and just plain water.

Immediately after the race I ingest simple sugars (like a Coke) and whatever fruit + protein I can find.  This will replentish your glycogen stores and assist in the healing.  Depending upon the race, I will also indulge in a nice cold beer!