Gun Advocates, What Say You?? (Page 5)

It's a population of 50,000 at last count (2011).  I've no idea of the size but significantly smaller than 900sm.  Our police station has just shut so I guess we have none!  Education level I would guess is around what you would call college level.  The village is basically a commuter town for London's financial district.  Poverty levels extremely low.

So it's far from a like from like comparison. 

I get frustrated at the levels of gun violence, poverty and right wing thinking in the US.  You just don't take care of each other well enough.

For the strong and capable America is a land of immense and unlimited opportunity.  As LB said, you've built a self sufficient society that in some ways is so far advanced and lucrative no-one in the land should want for anything.  But if you're weak spirited, mentally ill, lacking in confidence, down on your luck or a victim of so many of life's poker hands then you're on your own.  No wonder some people get so angry with that, they sometimes come out shooting.

I always think the UK is a sub-set of the scale the US is on.  The opportunities to succeed aren't as great (our f'd up class system, access to education, inherent bias within companies against someones background) compared to the US (you are broadly evaluated on your contribution, success is celebrated) but the downsides aren't as harsh (poor performers are managed, trained and given the opportunity to turn it round) compared to the US (poor performers are let go immediately).  I can give you a hundred examples.

LB's wonderful community story earlier on is what it takes.  We're sometimes too soft over here which is why there are thousands of refugees in France desperate to get to the UK who have already walked through Germany to get to our borders.  If they get here, we support them.  I'm proud of the UK for that but it's coming at a cost to our own.

For every winner there's a loser and it's very tough to be a loser in the US.  Angry losers with guns are a mass murder waiting to happen.

I don't think the link to poverty and violence can be attributed just to right wing thinking otherwise it wouldn't exist in every other society in the world irrespective of it's dominant approach to viewing situations.  And you take care of each other far better than any land east of Germany - but there is a cultural view of people that are struggling have only themselves to blame. 

As for my classification of loser.  For me it's someone that doesn't even try.  They don't see anyway to succeed (mostly through no fault of their own) so they don't bother.  Unsurprisingly this leads to further setbacks and reinforcement of a 'woe is me' mentality.  That leads to anger and eventually they lash out.  Perhaps that's why so many are young - they haven't been given the tools to believe they can succeed (for a billion different reasons) so don't even bother trying.  The opposite of the typical American.  You don't want to be someone like that in the US - whereas in some welfare state countries like the UK we'll give you some money and a roof over your head just to 'exist' and not bother the rest of us while we're working.  I am definitely not trying to say the UK is better than the US.  It's different and I would live in both places perfectly happily. 

Dan-L ....what is the drug culture like in your country?  Is heroin a big problem? Cocaine?  Is there much violence tied to it? 

There is an old saying "Most people would prefer a hand UP, rather than a hand OUT". 

Sure, the US has plenty of social safety net programs.  But if you're forced to utilize them you invite the scorn, wrath and distrust of (almost) the entire Right Wing of American politics.  (And a fair percentage of folks who identify politically as 'Moderates'.)  Conservatives have constantly targeted Welfare, Food Stamp programs, Medicare/Medicaid, Affirmative Action etc for elimination,  claiming these programs as fiscal 'drains' upon our society.  How does that level of scorn possibly foster any sense of self-worth in someone?  If you call someone a loser long enough, they'll eventually believe it, themselves.

Racism, Homophobia, Gun-related violence, Hell, ALL VIOLENCE are just symptoms.

What we need, IMHO, is to be kinder to one another.  I want a country were the idea of GIVING ASSISTANCE to those in need is recognized as a good thing.  Where individuals are more important than corporations.  NO ONE gets to sit in judgment of those less fortunate; those who require assistance to help feed their families or shelter them from the cold.  I know many of you are already mumbling "Bleeding heart sentiment!  Well, I worked for everything I got-so they should work, too.  Why do I have to pay for it?"  And they're probably mumbling this while drinking a $8.00 regional microbrew or a grande, mocha latta-chino.  (Their 3rd of the day). Either not realizing, or not caring to realize, that we all pay, relatively, peanuts for these social programs to exist. 

Maybe when we start caring MORE about helping and caring for each other.  And stop caring so much about what miniscule amount of 'stuff' we might have to sacrifice in the process; perhaps then we'll be heading in the right direction.

So, what the heck.... here is my problem with gun control... it is completely emotionally driven, and does not do one thing to actually address the problem.

Regulate me all you want. I am a law abiding citizen, and I have stuff I don't feel like loosing. I'll comply. What ever stupid rule you want me to follow on the 3rd Sunday of the month when the moon is full after all the proper forms have been filed is fine by me. I'll comply.... BUT I'M NOT THE PROBLEM.

As a law abiding citizen, I actually don't want violent people to have guns. I promise you, I would dearly love for all the good guys to have guns, and none of the bad guys. And I am all for anything that will make that happen. Seriously... the only problem is, the bad guys don't care about laws. In fact, it is sort of the definition that qualifies them as bad guys... not law abiding. Murder, assault and robbery are already illegal. Possession of a fire arm by a prior offender is already illegal. Stealing a fire arm is illegal. Selling guns to a known offender is already illegal.

What bothers me about all the non sense about gun laws is... how ridiculously selective it is. Every single day in America, bad guys shoot bad guys, and good guys at an alarming rate... but nobody cares. A mass shooting... and it's 24 hour coverage with the President making a statement within a couple hours. Police violence... Black lives matter... do you know what the #1 threat to young black men in America is... another young black man. Every single week dropping by the hundreds... but we don't hear a peep. A cop shoots a guy that is assaulting him, we have riots in the streets. AR15 are used in less that 1% of ALL gun crimes... but everyone gets bent out of shape over AR15s. ALL long guns account for 3% of all gun crimes. 3%!

Please I would love for one person that is for more gun regulation, to tell me how the new law will actually decrease gun violence. Anyone... cooling off period... how many people buy guns and go shoot someone that day? What is the percentage of crimes that will stop. How many lives? It didn't stop Holmes... he planned that for some time. Would not have stopped Lanza, he already had guns.

Registration... for what? We don't persecute bad guys already. So now we just make good guys file more paper work. Training... how is training for a law abiding citizen in gun safety going to prevent a mass shooting... or a drug addict robbing a person? Gun locks, safes... 600 accidental deaths a year! How many of those were from a unsecured gun? 30,000 people are murdered a year. Half of those are from guns... you want to make 100 million people jump through hoops to save 300... out of 30,000? .01% of the problem is what you want to focus on?

As a gun owner I don't have a problem with back ground checks. I have no illusions that it actually prevents gun crimes... it's just that in a civilized society, it's the least we can do. So when you want to rob, assault, and murder people... we can at least charge you with improperly acquiring your weapon too. Private sales... sure. I'll comply. Gun shows... there is no actual loop hole. But private sales... sure those too. But again, it won't stop people that want guns from getting them. Because there are actually criminals that are willing to break laws to get things for other criminals that are willing to break laws by robbing, assaulting, and murdering people. I am good with life in prison for anyone that uses a gun in the commission of a violent crime.... would not have stopped Holmes or Lanza... because life in prison, or the death penalty is already the punishment for murder.

Somebody, please tell me what regulating law abiding citizens will do to stop non-law abiding citizens from not abiding by the law. Anyone. Any law. Tell me how more regulation will actually resolve the problem you are trying to solve, and I will listen.

But right now, the 2A is a right of every single mouth breathing American. And until you actually repeal the 2A, this entire conversation is pointless. Because as Left Brain has already said... that horse left the barn a long time ago. And if you are so willing to amend the Bill of Rights... then what are YOU willing to give up? How about voter registration, and training to actually exercise freedom of speech? What other inalienable rights are you willing to have regulated? What are you bringing to the table... other than trying to regulate other's rights that you personally choose not to exercise? Regulations that do not actually stop the problem you are trying to regulate away.

It's better than it was and its falling year on year (according to what I could google this morning)  The current generation are better educated and the infrastructure is better equipped to deal with the problem in all respects.  Restricting supply, punishing dealers, helping addicts etc.

Where it does exist there is violence associated with it but that violence is far more likely to be carried out with knives.  From what I can make out the attitude to carrying a knife is similar to that of a disaffected person carrying a gun in the US.  But that's likely down to the fact that they're just not here.

I get what you're saying in the first paragraph, and that used to be true of most people, but unfortunately as generations of people have grown up with near total dependence on government it has morphed into a hand out is much preferred and how dare you tell me I need to work towards getting a job.

I have witnessed this first hand as a kid growing up in the welfare system and through many of my relatives doing the same.  Anything that could possibly interfere with benefits was avoided like the plague.  I was constantly discouraged to do better and strive to get out of poverty by everyone around me.  I would be made fun of for "working too much" or wanting to go to college and get an education.  You can't do that, you'll never amount to anything, you can't get ahead, the system is stacked against you...  Then our politicians pile on to tell everyone how the poor don't have a chance and the rich are keeping them down and it just continues to propagate failure.

So, in my opinion we've long crossed the threshold of helping a huge number of people on our government assistance and we're actually harming them.  I know it's hard to reconcile for many people but giving free stuff can actually hurt people.  Think of the spoiled teenager who mom and dad constantly give stuff to and never instill a work ethic.  They're now 40 years old and still fully dependent on Mom and Dad for everything.  Welfare is no different if not done correctly.

Your assertion about conservatives is quite a broad brush, but if you think we can continue to afford the ever increasing entitlements we have as a nation and even add more (Bernie Sanders) then I have a bridge to sell you out in CA.  Most fiscal conservatives that i know (including myself) are all for entitlement programs, but we want them done fiscally responsible and for people who truly need assistance.  Obviously there's a lot of genuine debate on where to draw those lines and that's completely fine.  I'm even all for government provided healthcare for anyone who needs it, but we have to be able to afford it and it has to be done with the people in mind and not "Big Medical", "Big Pharma", and "Big Insurance" being the only ones driving it.

I think educationm is really, really, a key to lessening the idea of govt. assistance as a way of life......and I know from working in those public subsidized neighborhoods that NOBODY is trying to instill any of the type of values that lead to self-sufficiency and "pulling yourself up"....the concept is not only foreign, it's completely nonexistent.  I have no idea how to even start down that road, it's not what I do.  People like me can be a part of removing the criminal element.....but we are not social workers or educators.......and I don't see many volunteers from that end on the spectrum stepping up to help. (maybe that was Dan-L's point that was lost on me)

So I keep hearing that welfare is bad because these people don't want to work hard.... Do you really think if there wasn't welfare they'd be working hard? or would there just be more people begging in the streets?

LB, you just need to be nice to them.  Then they'll all sing campfire songs with you.

The sad part is that it's taken generations to create what we have now and it will take generations of positive direction to undo it.  There are many things that contribute to it, so it's not even as simple as just doing X.  It starts at the family in my personal opinion because kids with a loving set of parents to come home to tend to do better than the alternative.

As I said, it's not that they don't WANT to, it's that they really don't have any idea about it.  Here's an example and an idea of how to start changing that culture.  I sat at a table a few weeks ago with a woman who had written a book about relationships between the police and poor black neighborhoods......she had a Doctorate and was a really sharp gal. 

One of the people at the table started talking about a survey she had placed on every door in the neighborhood asking what improvements could be made in their area, what problems they felt needed to be addressed, etc.  She was lamenting the fact that she had received exactly 3 responses out of nearly 400 surveys.  Later she was talking about the great response her group had gotten when they gave out free backpacks to the neighborhood kids the week before school started.

The gal who wrote the book says, "you should have made completing the survey a condition of getting a backpack".  Yes!!  That's the kind of education that is needed.......it has to start in very small steps, but the idfea has to be ingrained that nothing is free.  You have to do SOMETHING to help yourself.  And I'm not saying that they are too lazy to do something for themselves.....I am saying the entire concept does not exist for them.  It has never been taught to them.

So instead of removing their welfare benefits...why not increase them and add an education program.  Maybe with a stable situation and the right tools some of them could pull themselves out of the cycle they're in.

Increase them how, and why?  Welfare should be an insurance program.....not a living wage. 

Adding a mandatory education program is the start.  In my mind, you don't start with increasing what is already a failed program.  You start by turning a failed program around.

I agree with 80% of this

well that I completely disagree with.  You should expect nothing from anyone.  no one owes you anything.  and education should be freely given to all.

expectation is the root of many problems of our world.