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2016-01-23 6:39 AM
in reply to: ok2try

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Upstate, New York
Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Lots of responses/advice - just why I joined here!!

There are so many options when it comes to the watches and computers. I like what I'm reading about the Garmin920XT especially with the swimming lap counter. I can see I'm going to have a hard time keeping track of how many laps I've done when I start getting up there in numbers. My problem is I don't have a 12 year old at home to tell me how to use it!

I kind of thought there'd be a good reason against the padded saddle. My concern is less about how much padding I have for the bike ride (of course I'm only riding 30 minutes now) but more on how a padded short will be on the run. Nobody has addressed that directly but it can't be much of an issue if everyone is recommending it. I'm going to start looking for a tri suit today.

I'm going to check out my sit bone measurement and the saddle I have. Is there a way to measure the saddle to know what I have? Is it just the width of the widest part of the saddle?

Thanks for the swim breathing technique training tips, they helped. I only drank about 10 gallons of water yesterday!

As far as this weekend I plan on doing a 35 minute ride on the bike trainer today and the run LT test tomorrow.


2016-01-23 7:34 AM
in reply to: CL001

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Spencer, New York
Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Originally posted by CL001

Lots of responses/advice - just why I joined here!!

There are so many options when it comes to the watches and computers. I like what I'm reading about the Garmin920XT especially with the swimming lap counter. I can see I'm going to have a hard time keeping track of how many laps I've done when I start getting up there in numbers. My problem is I don't have a 12 year old at home to tell me how to use it!

I kind of thought there'd be a good reason against the padded saddle. My concern is less about how much padding I have for the bike ride (of course I'm only riding 30 minutes now) but more on how a padded short will be on the run. Nobody has addressed that directly but it can't be much of an issue if everyone is recommending it. I'm going to start looking for a tri suit today.

I'm going to check out my sit bone measurement and the saddle I have. Is there a way to measure the saddle to know what I have? Is it just the width of the widest part of the saddle?

Thanks for the swim breathing technique training tips, they helped. I only drank about 10 gallons of water yesterday!

As far as this weekend I plan on doing a 35 minute ride on the bike trainer today and the run LT test tomorrow.

Hey Chris,
Here's how to measure your sit bones:
http://www.artscyclery.com/learningcenter/measuresitbonewidth.html

When I did it, the cardboard didn't indent well enough but a piece of styrofoam worked just fine.
The saddle measurement is usually taken from underneath, just across the widest part, in millimeters or convert from inches if you don't have a metric ruler.
Then I googled "what saddles do elite women cyclists use" and read some articles, learning a lot.
I visited the websites of those manufacturers (Fizik and Selle Italia were mentioned often.) Also some other manufacturers recommended by friends--Cobb, ISM, Specialized, Terry--and found some models that might be of suitable width.
I then ORDERED 4 saddles online from retailers with generous return policies--mostly Amazon, 1 from REI.
I tried them out with a trainer workout. (Before removing your current saddle, note and/or take a picture of the fore/aft position of it so you can replicate it) There were a couple that passed that test; I tried them on an outdoor ride, but they were between disastrous and tolerable.
The last one I tried, the Specialized, is not sold online by the manufacturer's intent. Since I wasn't completely happy with any of the others, I made the 45-minute trek, with my bike aboard, to an authorized dealer in Binghamton who had agreed to let me take it for an hour test-ride. I hadn't ridden 10 minutes before knowing that this was the one. I did take the whole hour's ride, though, learning how glad I am to be living in outer bumkuss where traffic is thin and roads are beautiful! So I bought that one ($100) & sent the rest back for refunds.

Tri suits: they come in 1-piece and 2-piece, and I've tried both. The 1-piece is sleek and doesn't ride up while you're racing, so it doesn't reveal that bit of belly flesh. However, it makes it really time-consuming to go to the bathroom. Get a 2-piece, which of course also means you can use just the bottom for bike shorts. And I might as well tell you that you'll be much more comfortable on the bike without undies.(It took me 3 years to learn this.) Get 2 bottoms: if you wash them in the machine they'll lose some of their stretch; I just wash them in the shower with me. If you still chafe, you can buy all kinds of anti-chafing products, or just use Vaseline.

Lots of luck!
Deb

2016-01-23 8:27 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Spencer, New York
Subject: RE: It's the Weekend!
Originally posted by k9car363

I'm doing a swim clinic tomorrow.  An hour of dry land then to the pool for a couple hours of instruction, video, and analysis.  We have a full class with 25 reservations so going to be a busy day.

<


Scott,
I hope you have a lot of dedicated learners. Heaven knows there's lots of swimmers who need what you have to offer.
Deb
2016-01-23 1:27 PM
in reply to: CL001

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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Originally posted by CL001

Lots of responses/advice - just why I joined here!!

There are so many options when it comes to the watches and computers. I like what I'm reading about the Garmin920XT especially with the swimming lap counter. I can see I'm going to have a hard time keeping track of how many laps I've done when I start getting up there in numbers. My problem is I don't have a 12 year old at home to tell me how to use it!




If you want to save some coins, you can go with the Garmin 910XT. It's the older model and sells with the triathlon bundle for about half the cost of the 920XT. I have the 910 and I like it. I can use the HR and lap functions for running, the lap counter for swimming and the power meter and cadence for the bike. Although, to a point Scott made earlier, it's a bit of a pain to monitor a device on your wrist while on your bike. For my bike I have a garmin 510 which, again, is an older model but you can pick it up at a substantially lower price than the newer 520.

And as someone else mentioned, shop Ebay. I've had really great success buying gear off Ebay and saved a ton of money. It's not uncommon to find gear that is a year old but discounted by 50% or more off the retail price.

Good luck!

Steve
2016-01-23 4:51 PM
in reply to: ok2try

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54
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Upstate, New York
Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Deb, I couldn't get the cardboard measuring system to work either...I'll have to find some Styrofoam.

I ordered a 2XU Perform tri suit shorts. If I like them Ill get another pair.

Steve, the 910xt sounds like a good deal. Looks like it does just about everything the 920 does. I also shop ebay for great deals.

So, my next question: Those of you that do running races as well as tris, do you do more of a running workout at times? I ask because if I do an olyimpic in September, my training tops out at about 9 miles. If I do the HIM the training tops out at about 14. In early October I'm planning to do a marathon. So sticking to the tri plans I'll be under mileage for my marathon training. I was thinking of adding miles to the tri plans long runs to get my marathon training on track. Anyone see any problems with this?

Also, my marathon plans were for running 5 days a week. The tri running plans do 3 days a week. Is this a problem or is the theory that the added bike and swimming workouts make up for the fitness you lose doing two less days a week?
2016-01-23 9:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open

Originally posted by CL001

Steve, the 910xt sounds like a good deal. Looks like it does just about everything the 920 does.

Chris,

About the only difference between the 920XT and the 910XT (besides ~ $250 and cosmetic differences) is the 920 provides run metrics through the run HR strap - it gives Vertical Oscillation, Ground Contact Time, and Cadence.  Nobody has really figured out how to use Vertical Oscillation and Ground Contact time so those probably aren't that important. You can get run cadence from a 910XT with the addition of a foot pod.  The 920XT will connect to your cellular phone and provide smartwatch notifications of messages, calls, etc. Once paired with your phone it also will allow live tracking so significant others can follow your workouts in real-time.

Nobody has mentioned it so I will introduce you to the DC Rainmaker site with his review of the Garmin 920XT - http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/11/garmin-forerunner-920xt-depth-review.html. DC Rainmaker reviews pretty much all of the tech gear available for Triathlon. He has gotten such an incredibly high reputation that his words can quite literally destroy a product overnight, or send its sales to unheard of heights. Beyond all of that, his reviews give a very well written preview of the gear itself. If you have a question about a piece of gear, the first stop should be the DC Rainmaker site.

Originally posted by CL001

So, my next question: Those of you that do running races as well as tris, do you do more of a running workout at times? I ask because if I do an olyimpic in September, my training tops out at about 9 miles. If I do the HIM the training tops out at about 14. In early October I'm planning to do a marathon. So sticking to the tri plans I'll be under mileage for my marathon training. I was thinking of adding miles to the tri plans long runs to get my marathon training on track. Anyone see any problems with this? Also, my marathon plans were for running 5 days a week. The tri running plans do 3 days a week. Is this a problem or is the theory that the added bike and swimming workouts make up for the fitness you lose doing two less days a week?

The problem with pre-written plans is that they are generic plans written for the masses - the plan wasn't written for YOU.  That isn't necessarily to say that pre-written plans are bad, just that they aren't very dynamic and don't easily adapt to different training goals.  I would use a pre-written plan as a guide and modify it as necessary to fit my needs. Specifically I would use the triathlon plan that best fit my goals - the Olympic or the HIM. Then I would add the run mileage to accommodate the marathon.

A couple thoughts on creating the plan. First, unfortunately bike fitness doesn't equate to run fitness doesn't equate to swim fitness. Meaning, just because you can ride 100 miles doesn't mean you will be able to run 15 miles. Just because you can swim 1.5 miles doesn't mean you will be able to ride 30 miles. Just because you can run 26 miles doesn't mean you will be able to swim 500 yards. What that means for a triathlon training plan is you must have sufficient volume and/or intensity to properly train for each of the three disciplines - don't cut out volume on the bike and swim when you start adding the extra run volume.

Next, regarding volume build.  You probably have heard don't increase your run volume by more than 10% per week.  I would actually argue you increase 10%, run that mileage for two-weeks, then increase, but I tend to be fairly conservative and put injury prevention above everything else.  More importantly, especially if you are going to be adding run volume to a pre-written plan, you need to account for volume build across the entire plan (swim/bike/run).  To that end, I use a formula that keeps my volume build in line. I give 1 point for each 100 yards swimming, 1 point for each mile on the bike, and 1 point for each 1/4 mile running.

100 yards swimming = 1 mile cycling = 1/4 mile running

I then total up all the points for the current week. Next week, my training can't go beyond 115% of the current week points. By following that general guideline, you won't exceed a fairly conservative build and shouldn't be at risk for overreaching.

Remember in any plan you modify that recovery time is at least as important as actual training time - I actually argue that recovery time is MORE important, and increasingly I am no longer the lone voice in the wilderness on this topic.

Finally, on how many runs per week and the long run.  I have some thoughts on this that will occupy a pretty good post all on their own so I will leave those comments until tomorrow when I have some time to organize them properly.

Hope all this helps a little bit.



Edited by k9car363 2016-01-23 10:02 PM


2016-01-24 5:40 PM
in reply to: CL001

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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Originally posted by CL001

Deb, I couldn't get the cardboard measuring system to work either...I'll have to find some Styrofoam.

I ordered a 2XU Perform tri suit shorts. If I like them Ill get another pair.

Steve, the 910xt sounds like a good deal. Looks like it does just about everything the 920 does. I also shop ebay for great deals.

So, my next question: Those of you that do running races as well as tris, do you do more of a running workout at times? I ask because if I do an olyimpic in September, my training tops out at about 9 miles. If I do the HIM the training tops out at about 14. In early October I'm planning to do a marathon. So sticking to the tri plans I'll be under mileage for my marathon training. I was thinking of adding miles to the tri plans long runs to get my marathon training on track. Anyone see any problems with this?

Also, my marathon plans were for running 5 days a week. The tri running plans do 3 days a week. Is this a problem or is the theory that the added bike and swimming workouts make up for the fitness you lose doing two less days a week?


Chris:

I was a marathoner before I started triathlon. Ultimately, I got going in tri's because my knees just couldn't take 5-6 days a week of running. I was constantly getting injured. Biking and swimming allowed me to keep the training hours constant, but just spend some of the time doing aerobic exercise other than running.

Others have seen my recommendation before, but I had good success with the Run Faster Run Less program. The last marathon I did was 2008. I used this program, running only 3 days per week and ran a 3:17 marathon. It wasn't my fastest, but it really proved to me that if I had very focused training and swapped out a couple of runs with other aerobic activities, I could still run pretty fast. So, you could potentially use this program and create a training program to get your fitness level up to both an Oly tri and a marathon a month later.

In the end, I think it comes down to your objective. Is your goal to just finish the marathon or be competitive in your AG? Obviously, those are two distinctly different goals that require much different training. Can you add mileage to your weekly long run and between now and then build a base for an October marathon? Probably. You've essentially got 8 months, which is a long time to build up. But you'll have to be very careful about how you ramp up the mileage and probably be content with running a very easy pace in the marathon. You'll probably really need a full rest day every week following your long run. Those weekly 18-20 milers can take a toll. Olympic tri training itself can be quite taxing physically, so adding this incremental run mileage to build a marathon base should not be taken lightly.

You can find info on the Run Less Run Faster book at the link below.

http://www.runlessrunfasterbook.com/uof/runlessrunfasterbook/

Steve

2016-01-24 6:36 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Upstate, New York
Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Scott, I'm familiar with the 10% rule and try to follow it. I like your point system, I'll have to give it a try. I like the idea of building my mileage up over a long period because I can repeat weeks or add in rest weeks quite often. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on how many miles per week and the long run.

Steve, I've ordered the book. I'd like to run a 3:17 marathon but I really don't have a time goal. Since its my first I just have a finish goal. If I could come in 4 hours or less I'd be happy though. I really don't know what to expect. Running less with as good if not better fitness levels is what I'm hoping the tri training will do.

BTW I postponed my run LT test this morning. It was 0 degrees and I had too many clothes layers on. I'll see about next Sunday.

Ok, next question...nutrition during the race. What does everyone do? And when do you do it? I read you burn a 1000 calories/hour during a tri race (which is what I burned this morning). If the race takes 6 hours do you try to take in half of the calories burned? A quarter? That seems like a lot of eating! What's the goal number of calories to replace per hour? What are the best foods to eat?
2016-01-25 9:14 AM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open

Originally posted by CL001

 . . . So, my next question: Those of you that do running races as well as tris, do you do more of a running workout at times? I ask because if I do an olyimpic in September, my training tops out at about 9 miles. If I do the HIM the training tops out at about 14. In early October I'm planning to do a marathon. So sticking to the tri plans I'll be under mileage for my marathon training. I was thinking of adding miles to the tri plans long runs to get my marathon training on track . . . 

This post got a little bit long so pull up a chair and grab some popcorn!

While this post is in response to Chris’s question about adding run volume to a triathlon plan, it is really intended more to spark a general discussion about the long run and an alternative way to think about the long run. I will say right up front that I take a bit of a contrarian view on the long run. I take that contrarian view because I have developed the opinion that good health and injury prevention should be the guiding focus underlying any and all training – especially as an athlete ages.

Getting to the view I currently have on the long run has been a decade’s long journey that ironically began back when I was swimming. Back then we often did “vomit-sets.” By which I literally mean if you weren’t hanging on the wall hurling into the gutter at some point in the workout, you simply weren’t working hard enough. It never made sense to me, even as a teenager, that I had to work so hard as to vomit in order to improve. Something about that just intuitively seemed wrong. I accepted the “no-pain-no-gain” philosophy as that was the only method known at the time. Fortunately, as my swimming career progressed, there was mounting scientific evidence that suggested aerobic conditioning was more important than previously believed, even for anaerobic sports like swimming. With that, swimmers began to move away from the “vomit sets” in favor of scientifically proven methods – which meant I was blessed to not become yet another broken athlete and went on to a fairly successful swimming career.

Jump ahead several years, as I became more involved with triathlon, both as a participant and ultimately as a mentor and coach, I continued to see things that intuitively didn’t make sense. I see athletes that push their training to the point of functional overreaching in order to gain a slight competitive edge. I watch athletes continually injure themselves in a quest to add volume – with the vast majority of those injuries coming during the run. I often find myself among very fit, unhealthy athletes that are one illness or injury away from the end of their athletic career.

Prior to last year, this was all casual observation. However, last March I met a young athlete (26) who I will refer to as “John” and I unexpectedly found myself confronted with a very fit, injury prone athlete. Suddenly I was forced to re-evaluate everything I knew about training and improving fitness within the context of helping a young, energetic athlete overcome injury while leading him to the greatest athletic achievement of his young life at Ironman Louisville. I discovered that while most of my beliefs and techniques were indeed valid, I had to re-examine and re-define the long run as that was the obstacle to success.

John had a chronic problem with shin splints. He could run long, but if he ran long today, he couldn’t run again for 2-3 weeks. We finally accepted that John could not safely run over 10-miles if he wanted to run again in a timely fashion. We couldn’t do a true long run. We built to ~40 miles per week without the typical 16-20 mile long runs. The longest run that John did in training was 9.2 miles and he only did that once.

Through all of the training however, John kept asking me the same question, over and over again –“What happens when I get to mile 10?” At some point when he again asked the question, I had an epiphany of sorts as I realized that John’s understanding of endurance was not at all how endurance works. John had formed an idea in his mind that his endurance was like a meter that had been tied to his longest run, and his meter had only been turned up to 9.2 miles. The flaw in his model was that endurance simply doesn’t work that way. I’ll get to that in a moment, but first, I told John, “At 10 miles you keep running.”

Fortunately most of us aren’t limited to running less than 9 or 10-miles. That said, John is not the first athlete I have known that had an injury directly related to running and as often as not, related to the weekly long run. So, I submit that there may be a better way than the weekly long run. Now let me say, before anyone calls me a moron - weekly long runs DO work. It is the HOW and WHY they work I want to look at as I present my alternative to the weekly long run.

There are three variables that we can manipulate in training – duration, intensity, and frequency. It is the sum total of the work done through the manipulation of those three variables that equals our total training load. Total training load is the number one predictor of performance on race day. So, as I said, long runs do work, but not because of some imaginary meter. They work because of their contribution to total training load. More specifically, training runs work because of how many miles or minutes you run each week and how fast you are running – duration, intensity, and frequency.

If we look at an average training load for an average marathon/IM plan we would see a build to ~ 35-40 miles per week running. It’s pretty easy to get to 35-40 miles when you are running a 16-20 mile long run each week. I submit however, that there are far better things to do with those 35-40 miles than blow 20 of them on one run. Certainly that is true for most weeks. It is true that in a perfect world you will OCCASIONALLY do a long run. You need to familiarize your body with being on your feet for an extended period of time, you need to get used to the pounding, and perhaps most importantly, you need to dial in your nutrition plan for a marathon run. But those things are separate from the aerobic capacity you need to run a marathon or the run segment of a triathlon.

So if long runs do work and they are occasionally necessary, why am I against them? It isn’t really that I am against them. I am against running long too frequently and I am against running long for the wrong reasons. I suspect that the vast majority of athletes would not hit their run volume if they didn’t run long. Simply stated, they wouldn’t hit that 35-40 miles if they didn’t include the long run. I am saying they should run those 35-40 miles, but with a different approach most weeks. What if you ran 5 x 8 mile runs? Same 40-miles of training load right? Not exactly. Because you are running a shorter distance, you could run at a slightly faster pace. So what if you ran just two of those runs each week at a slightly faster pace? Faster pace = higher intensity = greater training load. Remember the #1 predictor of performance?

The biggest reason I am against the long run is the potential for injury that comes with the long run. For each additional step you take on ANY run, your likelihood of injury increases. Go back to that 5 x 8 mile week for a moment – now you have 24-48 hours for your body to recover from the pounding of the run and each individual run provides a whole lot less pounding to the body. This is manipulating frequency to your advantage. By running more frequently, with a couple of those runs at a slightly faster pace, you have increased your training load while reducing your risk of injury. Of course those 8-mile runs at a faster pace come with an increased injury risk as well. However, so long as you don’t get ridiculous with your pace, they still have far less injury risk than a 20-mile long run at ANY pace.

One other thing to consider when talking about running and injury – the long run shouldn’t be longer than ~ 35% of weekly volume. A long run with a weekly volume of 40-miles should top out at 14-miles. If you are intent on running a long run of 20-miles you should have consistent mileage around 60-miles per week. Anything else and you are inviting injury. The single biggest obstacle to obtaining your triathlon goals is injury. Far and away the leading contributor to injury is the weekly long run.

What is my alternative to the long run? I like the weekly 5 x 8 mile run model with a long run every 4th week for most athletes. Three of those 8-mile runs would be at marathon pace while two of them would be at marathon pace + 30-seconds per mile (roughly ½ marathon pace). On the long run weeks, I lean towards 4 x 7 mile runs, two at marathon pace and two at the faster pace with a 12-mile long run at marathon pace.  For athletes competing at the shorter Olympic and Sprint distances, I include one speed workout per week beginning 8-weeks before the race and continuing for 6-weeks.

What I like the best is the highest possible training load that can be consistently maintained for the longest period of time with the lowest possible injury risk.

Excessively long runs simply don’t fit into that equation.

Oh, by the way, John went on to run a sub 3:30 marathon at Ironman Louisville. His first marathon, at the end of an Ironman, in only his second year of running. Which validated the idea that you don’t have to run long every week – indeed in John’s case, he didn’t run long at all.

[On a side note, I am a HUGE proponent of the Maffetone Method to build aerobic base. I do not believe you should run faster than your maximum aerobic function (MAF) pace until you have FULLY developed your aerobic base. Running at your MAF pace in SLOW – painfully slow, however it is the most efficient way to build aerobic base. Additionally, it offers the least potential for injury. I am happy to share my thoughts on the Maffetone Method with anyone interested.]

Edited to mention at the top that this post is long.



Edited by k9car363 2016-01-25 9:33 AM
2016-01-25 5:56 PM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open

Scott - It's going to take me a while to digest your last post and I'll have to make some notes as well.  I briefly scanned it and I'm looking forward to reading up on the Maffetone Method.

For now, I wanted to answer Chris' question on nutrition/hydration.

Chris - You asked about what everyone does for hyd/nutrition in races (and I'll include longer training sessions as well).  First - everyone is different so ultimately you will have to figure out what works best for you.  The following is what works for me and it may not work for you.

Up to one hour running or cycling I don't worry about any nutrition and I would only hydrate when the temps get warmer in the summer.  The exception is swimming.  I always take a small (12 to 20 oz water bottle) with gatorade diluted 50% with water to sip on whenever I get a short break in the swim.  I find the diluted gatorade just provides enough flavour to make the water palatable. 

Over one hour - I want a bottle of water (large water bottle) per hour of ride or run.  I aim to sip every 10 min but it usually works out to every 15 min and I finish a bottle in the hour.  Personally, I find it hard to eat solid food on the bike or run so I usually add 60gms of carbs/ hour in each water bottle.  I also like to add a Nuun electrolyte tablet to each bottle.  I mainly get my carbs from Perpetuem by Hammer or CarboPro.  You can add more carbs to your water if you want but don't go less than 60gms.  I do find I can eat Honey Stinger waffles in limited quantities while running or cycling and I like to suck on ice cubes or any of the "chews" (like ju jubes).

In a race - on the run - I tend to take in whatever I want, depending on what is offered at the Aid Stations.  Many people like gels but I can't bring myself to eat them so I stick to water. ice, gatorade, coke, watermelon etc.  I can't even think of choking down pretzels or bagel chunks.  On the bike - I carry as much of my own nutrition as I can and I only stop at Aid Stations after I run out of my own.  If I take anything at an Aid Station it is usually whatever drink they offer like gatorade or Perform.

In Canada we have "Eatmore" chocolate bars that I can actually chew while riding and they are quite good (with lots of peanuts and no actual chocolate so not messy).  I only rarely eat them for a treat.

After the race I love watermelon, cookies and pizza!  As a diabetic I avoid pop but on a hot day during a race I love a cold pepsi - colder the better - or beer.  Beer is actually a good recovery drink with lots of B vitamins, right!!

This is just me and there are so many other things you can use.  I recommend maltodextrin as a better option for glucosally challenged people like myself.

Don't let this nutrition/ hydration issue make you crazy - trial and error should help you figure out what works for you - and keep it simple.

 



Edited by wenceslasz 2016-01-25 6:03 PM
2016-01-25 7:48 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Scott, I've read your last post several times today and like what I read. I'm wondering a few things though. I get the premise that less is more, but are you suggesting a triathlon running plan of 5 days per week? Or was that just an example like the mileage itself? I realize there is no one plan that fits everybody. But I'm looking for examples to put together a personalized plan for myself. My current tri plan includes 3 days of running to include one typical long day and two short easier days. This plan also includes two days of swimming and 3 days on the bike for a total of 6 days/week training. My long runs are currently 6 miles and will work up to 24 miles in late September. In your plan, what do your 1x/month long runs end up at for the IM plan?

I have to read more on the Maffetone Method but don't see how this would work. According to his method my MAF pace would be 104-114bpm. I live on a hill and jog down it as a warm up for my runs. My heart rate gets up to 115-120 jogging downhill. I don't think I can walk a distance with my HR between 104-114. I do a lot of walking and just don't see me getting into marathon condition with a walking training plan. It seems other methods based on LT would be more accurate because its based on a test of your fitness, not your age and an assessment of fitness. I'm not criticizing here, I just don't get it.


2016-01-25 7:59 PM
in reply to: wenceslasz

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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
George, so do you base what you take in during training or races based on how you feel after working out more than an hour? I haven't ever taken food in even when working out up to 2 hours other than Gatorade. Although I take Gatorade on all runs, its usually for after runs less than an hour. Unless it summertime and hot because I sweat buckets. But then again I've never run more than 2 hours and never needed anything beyond liquids. I don't think the tris are going to be the same animal. I guess I'll play with it on my longer training days and see what happens.
2016-01-25 10:02 PM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Originally posted by k9car363

Originally posted by CL001

 . . . So, my next question: .

What is my alternative to the long run? Three of those 8-mile runs would be at marathon pace while two of them would be at marathon pace + 30-seconds per mile (roughly ½ marathon pace). On the long run weeks, I lean towards 4 x 7 mile runs, two at marathon pace and two at the faster pace with a 12-mile long run at marathon pace.  For athletes competing at the shorter Olympic and Sprint distances, I include one speed workout per week beginning 8-weeks before the race and continuing for 6-weeks.




Scott
Can you confirm the pace above? ...marathon pace+ 30 seconds, or marathon pace-30 seconds...?
(Awesome post, by the way

(I seem to have messed up the quote function...)
2016-01-25 11:26 PM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open
Originally posted by k9car363

This post got a little bit long so pull up a chair and grab some popcorn!

While this post is in response to Chris’s question about adding run volume to a triathlon plan, it is really intended more to spark a general discussion about the long run and an alternative way to think about the long run. I will say right up front that I take a bit of a contrarian view on the long run. I take that contrarian view because I have developed the opinion that good health and injury prevention should be the guiding focus underlying any and all training – especially as an athlete agesSo if long runs do work and they are occasionally necessary, why am I against them? It isn’t really that I am against them. I am against running long too frequently and I am against running long for the wrong reasons. I suspect that the vast majority of athletes would not hit their run volume if they didn’t run long. Simply stated, they wouldn’t hit that 35-40 miles if they didn’t include the long run. I am saying they should run those 35-40 miles, but with a different approach most weeks. What if you ran 5 x 8 mile runs? Same 40-miles of training load right? Not exactly. Because you are running a shorter distance, you could run at a slightly faster pace. So what if you ran just two of those runs each week at a slightly faster pace? Faster pace = higher intensity = greater training load. Remember the #1 predictor of performance?

The biggest reason I am against the long run is the potential for injury that comes with the long run. For each additional step you take on ANY run, your likelihood of injury increases. Go back to that 5 x 8 mile week for a moment – now you have 24-48 hours for your body to recover from the pounding of the run and each individual run provides a whole lot less pounding to the body. This is manipulating frequency to your advantage. By running more frequently, with a couple of those runs at a slightly faster pace, you have increased your training load while reducing your risk of injury. Of course those 8-mile runs at a faster pace come with an increased injury risk as well. However, so long as you don’t get ridiculous with your pace, they still have far less injury risk than a 20-mile long run at ANY pace.

One other thing to consider when talking about running and injury – the long run shouldn’t be longer than ~ 35% of weekly volume. A long run with a weekly volume of 40-miles should top out at 14-miles. If you are intent on running a long run of 20-miles you should have consistent mileage around 60-miles per week. Anything else and you are inviting injury. The single biggest obstacle to obtaining your triathlon goals is injury. Far and away the leading contributor to injury is the weekly long run.

What is my alternative to the long run? I like the weekly 5 x 8 mile run model with a long run every 4th week for most athletes. Three of those 8-mile runs would be at marathon pace while two of them would be at marathon pace + 30-seconds per mile (roughly ½ marathon pace). On the long run weeks, I lean towards 4 x 7 mile runs, two at marathon pace and two at the faster pace with a 12-mile long run at marathon pace.  For athletes competing at the shorter Olympic and Sprint distances, I include one speed workout per week beginning 8-weeks before the race and continuing for 6-weeks.

What I like the best is the highest possible training load that can be consistently maintained for the longest period of time with the lowest possible injury risk.

Excessively long runs simply don’t fit into that equation.




Scott: I agree with some areas of your post, disagree with other areas. And I guess the rub is there is no one size fits all, so we're all trying to find the system/method that works best for our individual situations/capabilities/fitness, etc.

Is "long run" training for marathons critical? For me, it depends on the objective. If my goal is to "complete" a marathon, then I would agree that lower mileage at higher intensity will provide sufficient base to get it done. If the objective is to be strong, running race pace for 26 miles, then it's hard for me to believe that I can accomplish this without a number of fairly long runs as part of a training build. Do these long runs have to occur every week? Probably not, but I just don't believe I can run my optimum race at that distance if I don't have long run training in my program.

Here's part of why I think this way. When I was in my late 20's and took up running having no running background. I was focused solely on 10K distance. I was reasonably competitive for a recreational runner, pushing out 35-36 minute 10k times consistently. With some tempo work I got up to running a HM in 1:19. So my fitness level was solid. But I wasn't ever running anything over about 10 miles...but lots of high quality training 5-6 days a week in the 35-50 mpw range.

I happened to be going to New York on business. I had some friends at the American Running and Fitness Association. When they heard I would be in town they offered me a VIP entry into the NY Marathon which was being held that weekend. It sounded fun. And even though I wasn't training for a marathon, I figured my HM training would get it done so I accepted the entry. I figured I could just slow down, have fun and finish no problem.

I'd never been in a race that large before. Thankfully, the crowd slowed me down or I'm sure I would have gone out too fast...I think I went through the first 10K at 56 minutes. So I was running at was for me a very, very easy pace. I distinctly remember that by mile 20 I was completely and totally out of gas. It was a huge effort to just keep going through those last six miles. I finished at 3:43 and change. It was a respectable time, but far slower than would predict based off my 1:19 HM time.

Even though I was in my 20's, in great shape, to this day, NY remains the slowest marathon I've ever run. In my late 40's and early 50's I was never slower than about 3:30, usually 10-15 minutes faster. Why was I able to age by 20 years yet significantly drop my time? It's not because I ran 6 days a week at 5-10 miles with intensity like I did when I was younger. In my case I solidly believe the keys were better awareness of marathon pacing (developed through consistent practice) and significantly improved stamina, which I believe was developed from my long training runs.

I understand the issue with injury risk. For me, I was as likely to be injured on my interval runs as my long runs. Since my long runs were done at a very easy pace, they were far less taxing than pounding it around the track at a sub-6 pace.

In my mind there is something completely different that occurs physiologically around mile 20 when the body is completely drained. There is simply no way to train for it --both mentally an physically--without actually experiencing it. That's where the long runs pay off.

So, back to objective. If I was going to try to run a 4-5 hour marathon, I could probably completely skip anything longer than a few 15-18 miles long runs over the course of 16 weeks of build, figuring that at an easy pace I could stretch my stamina to 26 miles on race day. On the other hand, if my objective was to run strong, say sub 3:30, then the combination of intervals to build speed, tempo work to lock in pacing and long runs to build endurance would be the exact recipe I'd follow. Three days of running, with non stress aerobic conditioning on three other days and one day of complete rest.

Obviously, what worked for me may not work for others. I just have come to understand/observe that by building long runs into my marathon training, I've never again had a stamina issue like I did in New York, despite being a lot older and less fit.

That said, I've never done a full iron. So it's entirely possible that adding long run marathon training to a mix of three sport endurance training would simply be too much volume for an aging body. I have zero experience. To your point,, a smarter path might be to start looking at alternatives to build stamina without the additional fatigue of long runs.

Steve





2016-01-26 3:27 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: Tracking workouts via BT
Hi all,

This season I'm making some changes in how I track my workouts. Previously, I was using a run centric tool (running2win.com) and entered work in the other disciplines as cross training: swim, bike, weights, etc.

This year, I've started wearing a HRM and Polar GPS watch (M400) so I now have heart rate and other data which show up nicely in the Polar flow PC app.

My question: Is anyone importing their HR data into the BT site and does it provide any significant benefits? I've entered a few bits of info from my last few workouts manually to BT, but wonder if importing HR data provides any integration benefits versus looking at the data in the Polar app.

Appreciate any tips you'd care to offer.

Dave
2016-01-26 6:12 PM
in reply to: DJP_19

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Subject: RE: Tracking workouts via BT
Originally posted by DJP_19

Hi all,

This season I'm making some changes in how I track my workouts. Previously, I was using a run centric tool (running2win.com) and entered work in the other disciplines as cross training: swim, bike, weights, etc.

This year, I've started wearing a HRM and Polar GPS watch (M400) so I now have heart rate and other data which show up nicely in the Polar flow PC app.

My question: Is anyone importing their HR data into the BT site and does it provide any significant benefits? I've entered a few bits of info from my last few workouts manually to BT, but wonder if importing HR data provides any integration benefits versus looking at the data in the Polar app.

Appreciate any tips you'd care to offer.

Dave


Hi Dave:

I'm uploading all of my Garmin data into Training Peaks rather than the BT site (which I haven't tried). I haven't discovered any huge benefit, but it does provide me with good benchmarks on how my HR thresholds are changing as my fitness improves.

Steve



2016-01-26 9:43 PM
in reply to: lutzman

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Subject: RE: Tracking workouts via BT
Originally posted by lutzman




Hi Dave:

I'm uploading all of my Garmin data into Training Peaks rather than the BT site (which I haven't tried). I haven't discovered any huge benefit, but it does provide me with good benchmarks on how my HR thresholds are changing as my fitness improves.

Steve




Thanks, Steve. Like you, I'm trying to learn more about my HR thresholds and think the Polar app is fine for now. I will use the BT site this season to see how I like it as a workout tracking tool.

2016-01-26 11:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open

Originally posted by CL001 George, so do you base what you take in during training or races based on how you feel after working out more than an hour? I haven't ever taken food in even when working out up to 2 hours other than Gatorade. Although I take Gatorade on all runs, its usually for after runs less than an hour. Unless it summertime and hot because I sweat buckets. But then again I've never run more than 2 hours and never needed anything beyond liquids. I don't think the tris are going to be the same animal. I guess I'll play with it on my longer training days and see what happens.

 

Chris - I started out struggling with these same issues a few years ago and in talking to other people like sport nutritionists and pro triathletes I cobbled together a system of nutrition and hydration that has worked for me for a couple years.  However, even now I am realizing I still need to make changes to my nutrition/hydration strategies.  Writing about refueling has shown up some cracks in my own refueling plans and I see I need to make some changes to my regimen.

For now you've been able to get away with under hydrating and fueling but it is a bad habit to get into unless you're always going to just train for under two hours or race Sprints only.  Heavy sweating will increase your need for hydrating and replenishing electrolytes.  You do have to play with it and figure out what works for you.  Consider the 60gms of carbs per hour to be a good starting point and have a look at electrolyte replacement products (Nuun, Saltstick - see what they have in your local bike shops or running stores).

PS - Writing about this has shown just how hard a subject it is.



Edited by wenceslasz 2016-01-26 11:55 PM
2016-01-27 8:14 AM
in reply to: CL001

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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open

Originally posted by CL001

Scott, I've read your last post several times today and like what I read. I'm wondering a few things though. I get the premise that less is more, but are you suggesting a triathlon running plan of 5 days per week? Or was that just an example like the mileage itself? I realize there is no one plan that fits everybody. But I'm looking for examples to put together a personalized plan for myself. My current tri plan includes 3 days of running to include one typical long day and two short easier days. This plan also includes two days of swimming and 3 days on the bike for a total of 6 days/week training. My long runs are currently 6 miles and will work up to 24 miles in late September. In your plan, what do your 1x/month long runs end up at for the IM plan?

I have to read more on the Maffetone Method but don't see how this would work. According to his method my MAF pace would be 104-114bpm. I live on a hill and jog down it as a warm up for my runs. My heart rate gets up to 115-120 jogging downhill. I don't think I can walk a distance with my HR between 104-114. I do a lot of walking and just don't see me getting into marathon condition with a walking training plan. It seems other methods based on LT would be more accurate because its based on a test of your fitness, not your age and an assessment of fitness. I'm not criticizing here, I just don't get it.

Chris,

There are two different topics here.

I intentionally only made a passing reference to the Maffetone Method.  The Maffetone Method is a very controversial topic, with the largest criticism being the ultra slow running that the method initially advocates.  It is that very slow running however that offers a couple of the biggest benefits of the Maffetone Method, namely that the slow pace fully develops the aerobic energy system and the bodies fat burning capacity while dramatically reducing the risk of injury.  Developing the aerobic energy system ties in to your questions about nutrition.  If your body is more efficient at utilizing fat for fuel, you will potentially reduce your carbohydrate demands which may simplify your nutrition strategy.  Sadly, few triathletes will seriously consider using the method because of the slow running pace. Ironically, the method never mentions a running pace.  Rather it defines a method to determine your Maximum Aerobic Function HR.  That is the other area that receives a large amount of criticism - how can a formula properly determine a target HR?  That criticism grows out of an incomplete understanding of how physiological changes take place in the body.  Finally, the method doesn't produce results overnight.  Indeed, Dr. Maffetone suggests it takes years to fully develop the aerobic energy system.  We triathletes tend to be a high-strung type-A bunch that want results today, not three-months or six-months from now.  There are methods out there that will deliver quantifiable results in just a few weeks.  Unfortunately, they come with significantly higher risk of injury.  As you know, if you are injured, you can't race.  The Maffetone Method takes a high-altitude view that combines striving for athletic excellence with heath and offers a way for an athlete to get to the starting line, healthy and best prepared to perform to their maximum capacity - it just takes a little bit longer and requires a greater commitment.  In 7-months, John saw his MAF HR pace drop from ~12:30/mile to 9:15/mile with the same effort (the same HR).  It took me a year to go from a +15:00/mile pace to <9:30/mile at the same MAF HR.  As I said in my earlier post, 6-time Ironman World Champion Mark Allen is probably the highest-profile advocate of the Maffetone Method,  Here is a link to his view on the method and his observations on the slow pace it initially requires - http://duathlon.com/articles/1460/.

When you talk about your triathlon training plan, I wonder if you might be overlooking something.  You aren't training for a triathlon; you are training for a marathon while training for a triathlon.  Your training must allow for both.  You probably won't be very well served if you train for the half-iron in September and then the day after the race "throw the switch" and start your marathon training for the marathon a month later.  However, if you are building for a marathon, then the 13.1 at the end of the half-iron will be no problem.  If you look at the half-iron and Ironman (which has a full marathon at the end)  training plans here on BT, both of those plans build to 4-5 runs per week fairly regularly.  So yes, I am advocating building to 5-runs per week.  One of the reasons I brought this up when I did is because, in your specific case and given the history of injury - " I've had several injuries last year to include Achilles tendon, heel pad and an IT band injury." - re-defining the long run may be your injury free path to race day.  5 x 8 miles with three of those runs at marathon pace and the other two at half-marathon pace.  Once a month include a long run - 4 x 7 miles (two at marathon pace, two at half-marathon pace) plus a 12-mile long run at marathon pace.  The long run I suggest is HALF the long run you are proposing.  The long run of 24-miles that you mentioned is nearly the weekly mileage you have recently been putting in, and you have already been injured at that volume.  What is going to happen when you try to do nearly that weekly volume in one run?  My vote is for re-defining the long run within the context of "injury free and healthy."

Obviously I am not your coach so please accept my words in the spirit with which they are offered - just another alternative for you to consider.

Just my often outspoken two cents.

 

2016-01-27 9:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open

Originally posted by CL001

Ok, next question...nutrition during the race. What does everyone do? And when do you do it? I read you burn a 1000 calories/hour during a tri race (which is what I burned this morning). If the race takes 6 hours do you try to take in half of the calories burned? A quarter? That seems like a lot of eating! What's the goal number of calories to replace per hour? What are the best foods to eat?

Chris,

What works for everyone else, may or may not work for you.  That is the first thing to understand.  Your nutrition plan needs to be YOUR nutrition plan.

Next, I think the 1,000 calories per hour might be a touch high for mere mortal athletes.  But whether it is 1,000 calories per hour or 300 calories per hour, the point is you don't have enough fuel on board to complete a long endurance event without taking in fuel.  We have fairly limited glycogen stores with the human body typically having 1,400-2,000 calories available - that number is trainable by the way, meaning it can be increased.  If you consider completing an Ironman in 13-hours, about the average time for us older folks, and use 500-calories per hour (I know of medical studies that support that burn rate), you can see you might burn ~ 6,500 calories over the course of an Ironman.  Doing the math, it's obvious you don't have enough in your body to complete the task at hand.  The real kicker is that you can't take in enough calories to cover the difference.  If you body is efficient at processing fat for energy, you can more easily bridge the caloric gap.  However, remember that fat burns in a carbohydrate fire, meaning you are ALWAYS burning carbohydrate, even when most aerobic.

If you run out of carbohydrate (glycogen) your body WILL shut down so proper nutrition is essential for long course competition.  Here are links to a couple of videos.  The first is Julie Moss near the completion of the 1982 Ironman.  The second is Paula Newby-Frazier during the 1995 Ironman.   If you haven't seen them, these are vivid, almost painful examples of what happens when your nutrition plan fails you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3GjOedMd1M Julie Moss

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_utqeQALVE Paula Newby-Frazier

The average triathlete can absorb ~ 130-280 calories per hour.  Some people more, some people less.  Obviously it is difficult to take in any nutrition during the swim, the bike is relatively easy and during the run, your body has difficulty digesting anything taken in so the absorption rate tends to decline.  The goal typically is to try and take in roughly 300 calories per hour.

There are any number of products available from over-the-counter sports drinks such as Gatorade, to custom made sports drinks such as Infinit, as well as various gels and chew-able products.  This is where race day nutrition becomes very personal.  There is scientific evidence that supports taking in carbohydrate as well as protein during long-course races.  Some people like to have some caffeine while others need additional sodium to keep their electrolytes in balance.  There truly is not a one-size-fits-all answer for nutrition.  Understanding what your body can process versus what you need is the best way to determine your nutritional needs.  Those long training days, the bike rides and long runs, are ideal for this.  In reality, for the shorter races, a Sprint or Olympic triathlon for example, you are unlikely to need much more than a gel or two, or maybe a sports drink on the bike.  Any nutrition plan MUST allow for adequate hydration.  If you become dehydrated, it is FAR more difficult for you body to absorb calories.  Never mind that dehydration comes with all sorts of other bad things.

We could spend hours and hours talking about race day nutrition so hope this short little introduction helps.



Edited by k9car363 2016-01-27 10:20 AM
2016-01-27 9:44 AM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open

Originally posted by lutzman

Scott: I agree with some areas of your post, disagree with other areas. And I guess the rub is there is no one size fits all, so we're all trying to find the system/method that works best for our individual situations/capabilities/fitness, etc. Is "long run" training for marathons critical? . . .

Steve

Hey Steve,

This is precisely what I was hoping for - a lively debate about the long run!

I fully respect your position, indeed I hold your opinion in rather high regard.  I just happen to have an alternative view and I am sure that as adults, we can agree to disagree.

I ABSOLUTELY agree that there is no one-size-fits-all plan or method out there.  I should have clarified that the plan I was endorsing was within the context of training for a marathon as part of an Ironman, not a free-standing marathon.  If I were going to attempt to qualify for the Boston Marathon, I would approach that differently than I approach an Ironman marathon.  Those two events are simply not the same.  That said, for me, if I were trying to BQ, I would likely still not do 20-mile long runs.  I know what happens when I run that far - it takes days to recover; as in shut it down and do nothing for 2-3 days.  Whereas, if I keep my long run under 14-miles, I don't have those same issues.  I go so far as to say that if someone is intent on running long - which for the purposes of this immediate conversation I will define as 3-hours - then they should break the long run up in to two 90-minute runs - one in the morning, one in the afternoon/evening to reduce the pounding, recovery time, and injury risk.  Doing it that way, you still are running on fatigued legs in the afternoon, but have proactively dealt with the pounding that running long produces.

To your other argument for the long run, and please don't take offense, I merely am interested in your opinion -

Originally posted by lutzman

In my mind there is something completely different that occurs physiologically around mile 20 when the body is completely drained. There is simply no way to train for it --both mentally an physically--without actually experiencing it. That's where the long runs pay off.

I am not saying your way is good, I;m not saying your way is bad.  I simply want to debate the difference.  Is this something that is in your mind or is it something that is indeed physiological?  If it is a mindset, do you think that if an athlete is able to re-define the value and need for the long run in their mind that a process whereby you are not running as long a long run could be effective?

I seem to be working with a lot of injured and/or mature athletes of late so injury prevention has become paramount in my mind.  With running in general and the long run specifically being such an obvious source of so many injuries, that has become a focus - how to train for the marathon or half-marathon distance while avoiding injury or at least significantly reducing the likelihood of injury.



Edited by k9car363 2016-01-27 7:31 PM


2016-01-27 9:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Gray Guys/Girls Master's Focus Triathlon Mentor Group--Now Open

Originally posted by triosaurus

Originally posted by CL001

 . . . So, my next question: .

What is my alternative to the long run? Three of those 8-mile runs would be at marathon pace while two of them would be at marathon pace + 30-seconds per mile (roughly ½ marathon pace). On the long run weeks, I lean towards 4 x 7 mile runs, two at marathon pace and two at the faster pace with a 12-mile long run at marathon pace.  For athletes competing at the shorter Olympic and Sprint distances, I include one speed workout per week beginning 8-weeks before the race and continuing for 6-weeks.

Scott Can you confirm the pace above? ...marathon pace+ 30 seconds, or marathon pace-30 seconds...? (Awesome post, by the way :) (I seem to have messed up the quote function...)

Hey Kelly,

Marathon pace - 30-seconds or so which puts it around typical half-marathon pace for us mere mortals (sorry, it does appear I put + not -, my bad).  For example, say your marathon pace is 9:10/mile (four-hour marathon), I would run three of the 5 x 8 mile runs at 9:10/mile and two the them at ~ 8:40/mile.  The McMillan Pace calculator predicts for a 4-hour marathon the half-marathon pace will be 8:42 so 30-seconds works out fairly close.  Clearly those paces are going to be very individual.  My point is run two the the five runs slightly faster; not at anything near a 10K pace but faster than marathon pace to slightly increase intensity -thereby increasing training load.



Edited by k9car363 2016-01-27 9:59 AM
2016-01-27 10:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Tracking workouts via BT

Originally posted by DJP_19

My question: Is anyone importing their HR data into the BT site and does it provide any significant benefits? I've entered a few bits of info from my last few workouts manually to BT, but wonder if importing HR data provides any integration benefits versus looking at the data in the Polar app. Appreciate any tips you'd care to offer.

Dave

Hey Dave,

I import all of my data into Training Peaks.  I have used the BT logs in the past however they do not offer anywhere near as much in the way of analytic's, even if you pay for a membership, that TP offers.  You do need to pay for a membership on TP to get access to the advanced analytic's, but I think it is a small price to pay given that you have the same tools as the best professional endurance athletes in the world.

2016-01-27 11:35 AM
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Subject: RE: Tracking workouts via BT
Hi Scott,

Thanks, I'll have to give Training Peaks a look.

Dave
2016-01-27 11:35 AM
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