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Ernesto's group - CLOSED (Page 54)
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 2011-09-16 8:21 PM in reply to: #3690057 |
Master  3022  |  Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSEDernestov - 2011-09-16 5:24 PM dangremond - 2011-09-16 10:10 AM Ernesto: I'm wondering if you'd be willing to help me put a race strategy in place for my mid-October half marathon (Detroit). History: My best time for this race was the first time I ran it in 2008 with a time of 1:48:12 or 8:16/mile. I walked just a bit near the end and overall ran faster than I thought I would. In 2009 I believe I was better prepared but had a bronchial infection and likely went out too hard. 2010 I did better but again went out too hard and floundered the last 5 miles. I ran a 10-K the month afetr last years half and was happy with my results but also walked a couple times in the last half (7:39 avg pace). All this tells me (and I admit) that I lack discipline in the beginning of my races. This spring's HM was a perfect example of zero discipline. Course: The Detroit Half Marathon is relatively flat with the exception of two hills (The Ambassador Bridge to Canada and a downhill / uphill combo that is the Tunnel back from Canada to the US. Elevation profile (for the full marathon) at the following: http://www.freepmarathon.com/Assets/DetroitFreePress+Digital+Assets/pdf/2011+Elevation+Chart.pdf The Ambassador bridge hill gets congested making pace difficult to maintain without a lot of weaving and dodging. The tunnel uphill always leaves me gassed and dreading the 5 miles remaining. Nutrition: I train with GU gels and my stomach is happy with them. I rely on hydration on the course. I do think last year I took in too much GU early in the race and impacted my run. Goal: The last couple years I have wanted to break 8:00/mile avg. pace. I think this year I need to be more realistic and try to meet or surpass my results in 2008 with stretch goal of low 8:00 per mile pace. As ugly as it is, the following link (I hope it works) is to my speed and HR graphs for last octobers Half on same course. I have other runs available and hope to get some good data from tomorrow's pace run and Sunday's long easy run. https://www.polarpersonaltrainer.com/shared/exercise.ftl?shareTag=60f7b7e95e961ca66c24f1e3fad4ee9c Thank you in advance for any thoughts input you might have. The group is welcome to chime in as well! Pace: If you do what you did on your last run, blow up is guaranteed. You started WAY too fast, the elevation profile shows a climb somewhat steep after the mile two marker. I suggest you don't start racing until after you're over the hill. So, that said, warm up before the race, easy the first three miles and THEN start picking up the pace to eight minute miles. The last three or four should NATURALLY pick up to sub 8. Nutrition: You felt bloated last year because your GUs went in while your HR was through the roof, nutrition has to be taken when you can digest it. If you're distracting ALL your heartbeats in going too fast, the food just sits in your stomach undigested, put some more in and GI issues will follow. Put even more in and puking will be your body's response (I got tired of seeing people throw up in Ironman and marathons). And btw, Chris' comments are perfect too. Thank you. If you don't mind I will post the HR / Pace profiles from my runs this weekend for any comments / insights. I do appreciate it. |
| 2011-09-17 4:43 PM in reply to: #3436601 |
Master 2238   Dallas | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED Well, it happened to me. I was doing the century ride and I pulled my right hammie, stopped on the spot and then single legged my way to the next aid station to ask for help. The SAG wagon picked me up and took me for the rest of the way (20 miles) to the start/finish line. First DNF ever, it was not a race (just a rally) but I didn't finish anyway. The fact that I immediately stopped may have been a great decision, I hardly have any pain now. It kinda feels like I'm cramping though but it is not that. I hope to heal soon... |
| 2011-09-17 4:51 PM in reply to: #3690680 |
| Maple Grove, MN | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED ernestov - 2011-09-17 4:43 PM Well, it happened to me. I was doing the century ride and I pulled my right hammie, stopped on the spot and then single legged my way to the next aid station to ask for help. The SAG wagon picked me up and took me for the rest of the way (20 miles) to the start/finish line. First DNF ever, it was not a race (just a rally) but I didn't finish anyway. The fact that I immediately stopped may have been a great decision, I hardly have any pain now. It kinda feels like I'm cramping though but it is not that. I hope to heal soon... Sorry to hear about that Ernesto. Get better soon. I'm off to see if I can find some honey stingers for tomorrow's run. |
| 2011-09-17 5:04 PM in reply to: #3690691 |
Master 2238 Dallas | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED older2533 - 2011-09-17 4:51 PM I know you will like them, they taste awesome and they're made from organic ingredients (claimed). It's very easy to digest and you can feel the energy levels go up.ernestov - 2011-09-17 4:43 PM Sorry to hear about that Ernesto. Get better soon. I'm off to see if I can find some honey stingers for tomorrow's run.Well, it happened to me. I was doing the century ride and I pulled my right hammie, stopped on the spot and then single legged my way to the next aid station to ask for help. The SAG wagon picked me up and took me for the rest of the way (20 miles) to the start/finish line. First DNF ever, it was not a race (just a rally) but I didn't finish anyway. The fact that I immediately stopped may have been a great decision, I hardly have any pain now. It kinda feels like I'm cramping though but it is not that. I hope to heal soon... |
| 2011-09-17 5:12 PM in reply to: #3690680 |
Master 3022 | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED ernestov - 2011-09-17 4:43 PM Well, it happened to me. I was doing the century ride and I pulled my right hammie, stopped on the spot and then single legged my way to the next aid station to ask for help. The SAG wagon picked me up and took me for the rest of the way (20 miles) to the start/finish line. First DNF ever, it was not a race (just a rally) but I didn't finish anyway. The fact that I immediately stopped may have been a great decision, I hardly have any pain now. It kinda feels like I'm cramping though but it is not that. I hope to heal soon... Sorry to hear about your injury - RICE? Always seems to help me. Heal quick. I know how maddening it can be to be sidelined. |
| 2011-09-17 6:34 PM in reply to: #3436601 |
| Maple Grove, MN | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED So I went to REI and bought some goodies. 2 honey Stinger Waffles. Each: 160 Calories. 7 g fat. 21 g carbs. 55 mg sodium. 0 g protein. 1 PowerBar Fruit Smoothie Energy Bar. (Creamy Citrus flavor). "For Maximum Energy Delivery & Cramp-Crushing Electrolytes". 220 calories. 3.5 g fat. 43 g carbs. 180 mg sodium. 80 mg potassium. 6 g protein. 2 little bags of Jelly Belly Sport Beans. Each: 100 calories. 25 g carbs. 0 g fat. 80 mg sodium. 40 mg potassium. 0 g protein. I bought the non-stinger waffle ones because they were on sale. I also have Gatorade (G series. 80 cals per 6 oz serving. 160 mg sodium. 45 mg potassium. 21 g carbs.) So, I'm doing a ten mile run tomorrow at 1 minute per mile slower than marathon pace. What of this cornucopia of delights would you suggest I run with tomorrow and how much should I eat when? (I consider myself training my stomach here as well as my legs.) BTW, the race has PowerAde every two miles. Thanks. |
| 2011-09-17 6:47 PM in reply to: #3690757 |
Master 2238 Dallas | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED older2533 - 2011-09-17 6:34 PM So I went to REI and bought some goodies. 2 honey Stinger Waffles. Each: 160 Calories. 7 g fat. 21 g carbs. 55 mg sodium. 0 g protein. 1 PowerBar Fruit Smoothie Energy Bar. (Creamy Citrus flavor). "For Maximum Energy Delivery & Cramp-Crushing Electrolytes". 220 calories. 3.5 g fat. 43 g carbs. 180 mg sodium. 80 mg potassium. 6 g protein. 2 little bags of Jelly Belly Sport Beans. Each: 100 calories. 25 g carbs. 0 g fat. 80 mg sodium. 40 mg potassium. 0 g protein. I bought the non-stinger waffle ones because they were on sale. I also have Gatorade (G series. 80 cals per 6 oz serving. 160 mg sodium. 45 mg potassium. 21 g carbs.) So, I'm doing a ten mile run tomorrow at 1 minute per mile slower than marathon pace. What of this cornucopia of delights would you suggest I run with tomorrow and how much should I eat when? (I consider myself training my stomach here as well as my legs.) BTW, the race has PowerAde every two miles. Thanks. Well, the majority of people out there can digest at a rate of between 250 to 400kCals an hour, I have trained my gut to digest up to 400 on the bike, much less running though. Start conservative, eat your waffle like around mile 2 (not all at once) and then a gel about 3 miles later. Maybe another gel around mile eight if you're not bloated. Mix all this with some Gatorade (mostly with the waffle). The real trick will be doing it at marathon pace with the higher HR.Remember that since everyone is different, the result might not be good. Nutrition is trial and error, and what works for you mght be bad for me or viceversa. |
| 2011-09-17 7:07 PM in reply to: #3690680 |
Expert 1109 Guatemala | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED ernestov - 2011-09-17 3:43 PM Hey E,Sorry to hear about your injury but glad that you chose to DNF instead of making it a lot worse. Hope you get better soon!Well, it happened to me. I was doing the century ride and I pulled my right hammie, stopped on the spot and then single legged my way to the next aid station to ask for help. The SAG wagon picked me up and took me for the rest of the way (20 miles) to the start/finish line. First DNF ever, it was not a race (just a rally) but I didn't finish anyway. The fact that I immediately stopped may have been a great decision, I hardly have any pain now. It kinda feels like I'm cramping though but it is not that. I hope to heal soon... |
| 2011-09-17 7:54 PM in reply to: #3690757 |
Master 3022 | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED older2533 - 2011-09-17 6:34 PM So I went to REI and bought some goodies. 2 honey Stinger Waffles. Each: 160 Calories. 7 g fat. 21 g carbs. 55 mg sodium. 0 g protein. 1 PowerBar Fruit Smoothie Energy Bar. (Creamy Citrus flavor). "For Maximum Energy Delivery & Cramp-Crushing Electrolytes". 220 calories. 3.5 g fat. 43 g carbs. 180 mg sodium. 80 mg potassium. 6 g protein. 2 little bags of Jelly Belly Sport Beans. Each: 100 calories. 25 g carbs. 0 g fat. 80 mg sodium. 40 mg potassium. 0 g protein. I bought the non-stinger waffle ones because they were on sale. I also have Gatorade (G series. 80 cals per 6 oz serving. 160 mg sodium. 45 mg potassium. 21 g carbs.) So, I'm doing a ten mile run tomorrow at 1 minute per mile slower than marathon pace. What of this cornucopia of delights would you suggest I run with tomorrow and how much should I eat when? (I consider myself training my stomach here as well as my legs.) BTW, the race has PowerAde every two miles. Thanks. Have you trained with powerade? I have heard of more people having difficulty with variety of sports drink on the course. Perhaps you should get some powerade and use that as your sports drink when training? I usually get my calories from gels and then water on the course. I think the for the full marathon distance you need to pay attention to your electrolyte consumption. I would try the powerbar 15 minutes before the run and the honey stingers mile 3 and 8 as suggested by Ernesto. |
| 2011-09-17 8:25 PM in reply to: #3690794 |
| Maple Grove, MN | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED dangremond - 2011-09-17 7:54 PM Have you trained with powerade? I have heard of more people having difficulty with variety of sports drink on the course. Perhaps you should get some powerade and use that as your sports drink when training? I usually get my calories from gels and then water on the course. I think the for the full marathon distance you need to pay attention to your electrolyte consumption. I would try the powerbar 15 minutes before the run and the honey stingers mile 3 and 8 as suggested by Ernesto. Thanks guys. Mitch, I have trained a lot with Gatorade, but not Powerade. I'm assuming they are close enough. Should I be worried they aren't? |
| 2011-09-17 8:44 PM in reply to: #3690812 |
Master 3022 | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED older2533 - 2011-09-17 8:25 PM dangremond - 2011-09-17 7:54 PM Thanks guys. Mitch, I have trained a lot with Gatorade, but not Powerade. I'm assuming they are close enough. Should I be worried they aren't? Have you trained with powerade? I have heard of more people having difficulty with variety of sports drink on the course. Perhaps you should get some powerade and use that as your sports drink when training? I usually get my calories from gels and then water on the course. I think the for the full marathon distance you need to pay attention to your electrolyte consumption. I would try the powerbar 15 minutes before the run and the honey stingers mile 3 and 8 as suggested by Ernesto. I think you should try it in training. Honestly, I am not sure...but I remember reading enough threads on slowtwitch and here where people struggled because they weren't used to the sports drink on the course. I have a very strong stomach and things don't bother me, but it would be a cheap experiment to run. |
| 2011-09-18 1:24 PM in reply to: #3436601 |
Master 3022 | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED Chris: How did your run go. I don't know if you share this opinion but I am ecstatic that fall is here. My run this morning the temp was in the 50's and it was wonderful. Perfect running weather. I ran for 12 and before hitting a couple hills at the end my HR was probably the lowest it has ever been for a pace in the upper 8:00's. My HR decoupled at the end from my pace but am I right that it can be attributed to speeding up pace while hitting a couple hills? I was really trying to run by feel and the average pace for my run felt easy and could have definitely maintained a conversation (not the hills though, I attacked them so I would be forced to run while fatigued and get my breathing and HR back under control). Just one of those runs where you wish you had time to run even more. Yesterday's pace run didn't feel as good. I sped up too fast after the first mile and spiked my HR. Today I did much better letting my speed increase gradually. Chris or Ernesto - can you share some thoughts on going from running easy most of the time in training to race pace during a race. You know that in the past I have always trained too hard and have been focusing on doing much more easy running - just a bit worried that i won't be able to maintain a higher tempo for 1:45. Both runs are logged with links to my HR profiles. As always I am open to any comments. Thanks gang! |
| 2011-09-18 2:57 PM in reply to: #3690680 |
Master 1609 Gold Coast Australia. | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED ernestov - 2011-09-17 4:43 PM Well, it happened to me. I was doing the century ride and I pulled my right hammie, stopped on the spot and then single legged my way to the next aid station to ask for help. The SAG wagon picked me up and took me for the rest of the way (20 miles) to the start/finish line. First DNF ever, it was not a race (just a rally) but I didn't finish anyway. The fact that I immediately stopped may have been a great decision, I hardly have any pain now. It kinda feels like I'm cramping though but it is not that. I hope to heal soon... Sorry to hear that Ernesto... How did you do that? I thought riding was sort of impact free. Heal quickly!!! Edited by markz 2011-09-20 4:36 AM |
| 2011-09-18 2:59 PM in reply to: #3691109 |
| Maple Grove, MN | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED dangremond - 2011-09-18 1:24 PM Chris: How did your run go. I don't know if you share this opinion but I am ecstatic that fall is here. My run this morning the temp was in the 50's and it was wonderful. Perfect running weather. I ran for 12 and before hitting a couple hills at the end my HR was probably the lowest it has ever been for a pace in the upper 8:00's. My HR decoupled at the end from my pace but am I right that it can be attributed to speeding up pace while hitting a couple hills? I was really trying to run by feel and the average pace for my run felt easy and could have definitely maintained a conversation (not the hills though, I attacked them so I would be forced to run while fatigued and get my breathing and HR back under control). Just one of those runs where you wish you had time to run even more. Yesterday's pace run didn't feel as good. I sped up too fast after the first mile and spiked my HR. Today I did much better letting my speed increase gradually. Chris or Ernesto - can you share some thoughts on going from running easy most of the time in training to race pace during a race. You know that in the past I have always trained too hard and have been focusing on doing much more easy running - just a bit worried that i won't be able to maintain a higher tempo for 1:45. Both runs are logged with links to my HR profiles. As always I am open to any comments. Thanks gang! Mitch, I didn't see much increase in your heart rate, but I'm no expert. Wait for Ernesto's opinion. But I love the fall weather. I just finished my run in about 58 degrees and light rain. About perfect. As for the run itself, I'm calling it "Adventures in Competitive Eating". Before the run I ate the PowerAde bar. 220 calories. Yuck. Way too chewy. Could never eat this on the run. Waited a half hour for it to settle in my stomach. On the run, at mile 2 I ate a honey stinger waffle. Loved it. 160 calories. Swigged about 1/4 of my gatorade (total gatorade had 80 calories). At mile 5, I ate a packet of the Jelly Belly Sport Beans. 100 calories along with more gatorade. Didn't like. Too hard to eat. Finally, at mile 8, I ate the second packet of the Jelly Belly Sport Beans and finished my gatorade. Unlike my first packet, I didn't open this one before I started running. Mistake. Note to self: all packages must be opened in advance. (I also had a little water as well along the way). So in my ten mile, 88 minute run, I consumed 440 calories, plus another 220 just before, for a total of 660 calories. Kept it down (and actually never really felt close). I think I will buy a case of the honey stingers of the interweb. Edited by older2533 2011-09-18 3:01 PM |
| 2011-09-18 3:48 PM in reply to: #3691159 |
Master 3022 | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED older2533 - 2011-09-18 2:59 PM dangremond - 2011-09-18 1:24 PM Mitch, I didn't see much increase in your heart rate, but I'm no expert. Wait for Ernesto's opinion. But I love the fall weather. I just finished my run in about 58 degrees and light rain. About perfect. As for the run itself, I'm calling it "Adventures in Competitive Eating". Before the run I ate the PowerAde bar. 220 calories. Yuck. Way too chewy. Could never eat this on the run. Waited a half hour for it to settle in my stomach. On the run, at mile 2 I ate a honey stinger waffle. Loved it. 160 calories. Swigged about 1/4 of my gatorade (total gatorade had 80 calories). At mile 5, I ate a packet of the Jelly Belly Sport Beans. 100 calories along with more gatorade. Didn't like. Too hard to eat. Finally, at mile 8, I ate the second packet of the Jelly Belly Sport Beans and finished my gatorade. Unlike my first packet, I didn't open this one before I started running. Mistake. Note to self: all packages must be opened in advance. (I also had a little water as well along the way). So in my ten mile, 88 minute run, I consumed 440 calories, plus another 220 just before, for a total of 660 calories. Kept it down (and actually never really felt close). I think I will buy a case of the honey stingers of the interweb. Chris: How did your run go. I don't know if you share this opinion but I am ecstatic that fall is here. My run this morning the temp was in the 50's and it was wonderful. Perfect running weather. I ran for 12 and before hitting a couple hills at the end my HR was probably the lowest it has ever been for a pace in the upper 8:00's. My HR decoupled at the end from my pace but am I right that it can be attributed to speeding up pace while hitting a couple hills? I was really trying to run by feel and the average pace for my run felt easy and could have definitely maintained a conversation (not the hills though, I attacked them so I would be forced to run while fatigued and get my breathing and HR back under control). Just one of those runs where you wish you had time to run even more. Yesterday's pace run didn't feel as good. I sped up too fast after the first mile and spiked my HR. Today I did much better letting my speed increase gradually. Chris or Ernesto - can you share some thoughts on going from running easy most of the time in training to race pace during a race. You know that in the past I have always trained too hard and have been focusing on doing much more easy running - just a bit worried that i won't be able to maintain a higher tempo for 1:45. Both runs are logged with links to my HR profiles. As always I am open to any comments. Thanks gang! Chris: Thanks for the comments. I assume you don't like gels? I've had good luck with GU. They have a special gel called Roctane that has ginger in it to settle the stomach and some other amino acids that I'm not smart enough to know what they do. They also have caffeine which some argue is a performance enhancer. -Mitch |
| 2011-09-18 4:33 PM in reply to: #3691158 |
Master 2238 Dallas | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED markz - 2011-09-18 2:57 PM Well, I took the day off and I'm starting to believe that it was a severe cramp because the pain I have now is very similar to the calf pain after pool cramps. I took the day off and I'll try to run tomorrow and I'll stop if it hurts even a bit.ernestov - 2011-09-17 4:43 PM Well, it happened to me. I was doing the century ride and I pulled my right hammie, stopped on the spot and then single legged my way to the next aid station to ask for help. The SAG wagon picked me up and took me for the rest of the way (20 miles) to the start/finish line. First DNF ever, it was not a race (just a rally) but I didn't finish anyway. The fact that I immediately stopped may have been a great decision, I hardly have any pain now. It kinda feels like I'm cramping though but it is not that. I hope to heal soon... Sorry to hear that Ernesto... How did you do that? I thought riding was sort of impact free. Heel quickly!!! |
| 2011-09-18 4:46 PM in reply to: #3691109 |
Master 2238 Dallas | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED dangremond - 2011-09-18 1:24 PM Mitch,Chris: How did your run go. I don't know if you share this opinion but I am ecstatic that fall is here. My run this morning the temp was in the 50's and it was wonderful. Perfect running weather. I ran for 12 and before hitting a couple hills at the end my HR was probably the lowest it has ever been for a pace in the upper 8:00's. My HR decoupled at the end from my pace but am I right that it can be attributed to speeding up pace while hitting a couple hills? I was really trying to run by feel and the average pace for my run felt easy and could have definitely maintained a conversation (not the hills though, I attacked them so I would be forced to run while fatigued and get my breathing and HR back under control). Just one of those runs where you wish you had time to run even more. Yesterday's pace run didn't feel as good. I sped up too fast after the first mile and spiked my HR. Today I did much better letting my speed increase gradually. Chris or Ernesto - can you share some thoughts on going from running easy most of the time in training to race pace during a race. You know that in the past I have always trained too hard and have been focusing on doing much more easy running - just a bit worried that i won't be able to maintain a higher tempo for 1:45. Both runs are logged with links to my HR profiles. As always I am open to any comments. Thanks gang!
The run is actually a pretty good quality workout, one comment though, you said "I powered up the hills" and that is a way to kick up your HR of course. The issue with that is that you're tapping hard into your glycogen stores, breaking the fat glycolisis. Once you did it, it's VERY hard for the body to slow the HR again, and that's when decoupling starts to happen. As for the speed, you have to differenciate long run and speed runs. Chris' workouts towards his marathon are a perfect example. He's doing three basic types of sessions: - Long run at easy pace (designed to expand your aerobic base or cardiovascular strenght). - Semi-long runs at target pace (designed to increase the anaerobic threshold and muscular strenght). - Speed sessions (designed to increase turnover rate, muscular strenght and oxygen uptake). It all comes together on race day, but you NEVER train like you race in both duration and speed, if you do that you're heading straight for overtraining. |
| 2011-09-18 4:49 PM in reply to: #3691159 |
Master 2238 Dallas | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED older2533 - 2011-09-18 2:59 PM I'm glad you liked the waffles, I had a hunch you would love them. As per the astonishing amount of calories you put in for such a short run (and the variety of nutrition) I'm surprised you didn't end up on the side of the road retching your guts out. dangremond - 2011-09-18 1:24 PM Mitch, I didn't see much increase in your heart rate, but I'm no expert. Wait for Ernesto's opinion. But I love the fall weather. I just finished my run in about 58 degrees and light rain. About perfect. As for the run itself, I'm calling it "Adventures in Competitive Eating". Before the run I ate the PowerAde bar. 220 calories. Yuck. Way too chewy. Could never eat this on the run. Waited a half hour for it to settle in my stomach. On the run, at mile 2 I ate a honey stinger waffle. Loved it. 160 calories. Swigged about 1/4 of my gatorade (total gatorade had 80 calories). At mile 5, I ate a packet of the Jelly Belly Sport Beans. 100 calories along with more gatorade. Didn't like. Too hard to eat. Finally, at mile 8, I ate the second packet of the Jelly Belly Sport Beans and finished my gatorade. Unlike my first packet, I didn't open this one before I started running. Mistake. Note to self: all packages must be opened in advance. (I also had a little water as well along the way). So in my ten mile, 88 minute run, I consumed 440 calories, plus another 220 just before, for a total of 660 calories. Kept it down (and actually never really felt close). I think I will buy a case of the honey stingers of the interweb. Chris: How did your run go. I don't know if you share this opinion but I am ecstatic that fall is here. My run this morning the temp was in the 50's and it was wonderful. Perfect running weather. I ran for 12 and before hitting a couple hills at the end my HR was probably the lowest it has ever been for a pace in the upper 8:00's. My HR decoupled at the end from my pace but am I right that it can be attributed to speeding up pace while hitting a couple hills? I was really trying to run by feel and the average pace for my run felt easy and could have definitely maintained a conversation (not the hills though, I attacked them so I would be forced to run while fatigued and get my breathing and HR back under control). Just one of those runs where you wish you had time to run even more. Yesterday's pace run didn't feel as good. I sped up too fast after the first mile and spiked my HR. Today I did much better letting my speed increase gradually. Chris or Ernesto - can you share some thoughts on going from running easy most of the time in training to race pace during a race. You know that in the past I have always trained too hard and have been focusing on doing much more easy running - just a bit worried that i won't be able to maintain a higher tempo for 1:45. Both runs are logged with links to my HR profiles. As always I am open to any comments. Thanks gang!  |
| 2011-09-18 5:17 PM in reply to: #3691248 |
| Maple Grove, MN | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED ernestov - 2011-09-18 4:49 PM I'm glad you liked the waffles, I had a hunch you would love them. As per the astonishing amount of calories you put in for such a short run (and the variety of nutrition) I'm surprised you didn't end up on the side of the road retching your guts out. Hey, what you callin a short run? Actually, I must be reading you wrong. You wrote most people try to take in 250-400 calories per hour. I ran 1.5 hours, so that meant to me I should go for 375 - 600 calories. Not counting the pre run Powerade bar, I took in 440 calories. That seems in line with the 250-400 per hour. I would love for you tell me that I didn't need to eat that much. So, given I take the powerade at all the stops (or maybe half of them). How many stingers (160 cals each) should I be eating over 26.2 miles? If I try for 300 calories per hour of running, that's 1050 calories over the course of the marathon, or something like 6.5 waffles (if you don't count the powerade). Seems like a lot. Should I try to eat one at miles 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 and 22? I have a feeling I'm just not understanding something here. Edited by older2533 2011-09-18 5:19 PM |
| 2011-09-18 5:31 PM in reply to: #3691269 |
Master 2238 Dallas | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED older2533 - 2011-09-18 5:17 PM ernestov - 2011-09-18 4:49 PM Hey, what you callin a short run? Actually, I must be reading you wrong. You wrote most people try to take in 250-400 calories per hour. I ran 1.5 hours, so that meant to me I should go for 375 - 600 calories. Not counting the pre run Powerade bar, I took in 440 calories. That seems in line with the 250-400 per hour. I would love for you tell me that I didn't need to eat that much. So, given I take the powerade at all the stops (or maybe half of them). How many stingers (160 cals each) should I be eating over 26.2 miles? If I try for 300 calories per hour of running, that's 1050 calories over the course of the marathon, or something like 6.5 waffles (if you don't count the powerade). Seems like a lot. Should I try to eat one at miles 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 and 22? I have a feeling I'm just not understanding something here.
I'm glad you liked the waffles, I had a hunch you would love them. As per the astonishing amount of calories you put in for such a short run (and the variety of nutrition) I'm surprised you didn't end up on the side of the road retching your guts out. Sorry, I read 58 minutes when it was 58 degrees. My bad. About eating for the entirety of the marathon I really think you should stop about mile 18 or so, your HR will start to go up at that point and digesting will be a challenge. If we were talking Ironman the story would be much different, but nothing will happen between miles 18 and 26.2. Regardless, you should always have to have the option of eating if you feel like doing so but I doubt you will feel like it. |
| 2011-09-18 6:41 PM in reply to: #3691242 |
Master 3022 | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED ernestov - 2011-09-18 4:46 PM dangremond - 2011-09-18 1:24 PM Mitch,Chris: How did your run go. I don't know if you share this opinion but I am ecstatic that fall is here. My run this morning the temp was in the 50's and it was wonderful. Perfect running weather. I ran for 12 and before hitting a couple hills at the end my HR was probably the lowest it has ever been for a pace in the upper 8:00's. My HR decoupled at the end from my pace but am I right that it can be attributed to speeding up pace while hitting a couple hills? I was really trying to run by feel and the average pace for my run felt easy and could have definitely maintained a conversation (not the hills though, I attacked them so I would be forced to run while fatigued and get my breathing and HR back under control). Just one of those runs where you wish you had time to run even more. Yesterday's pace run didn't feel as good. I sped up too fast after the first mile and spiked my HR. Today I did much better letting my speed increase gradually. Chris or Ernesto - can you share some thoughts on going from running easy most of the time in training to race pace during a race. You know that in the past I have always trained too hard and have been focusing on doing much more easy running - just a bit worried that i won't be able to maintain a higher tempo for 1:45. Both runs are logged with links to my HR profiles. As always I am open to any comments. Thanks gang!
The run is actually a pretty good quality workout, one comment though, you said "I powered up the hills" and that is a way to kick up your HR of course. The issue with that is that you're tapping hard into your glycogen stores, breaking the fat glycolisis. Once you did it, it's VERY hard for the body to slow the HR again, and that's when decoupling starts to happen. As for the speed, you have to differenciate long run and speed runs. Chris' workouts towards his marathon are a perfect example. He's doing three basic types of sessions: - Long run at easy pace (designed to expand your aerobic base or cardiovascular strenght). - Semi-long runs at target pace (designed to increase the anaerobic threshold and muscular strenght). - Speed sessions (designed to increase turnover rate, muscular strenght and oxygen uptake). It all comes together on race day, but you NEVER train like you race in both duration and speed, if you do that you're heading straight for overtraining. Thank you for the feedback. I've been following a similar plan, but limited my speed workouts until recently due to my knee issues. Figured the bit of speed at the end of my easy long run was sort of a reward. Really only pushed it on the hill at mile 10. |
| 2011-09-18 6:58 PM in reply to: #3691228 |
Expert 1255 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED Ernesto, Sorry about your injury, maybe now a bad cramp. My two friends did that ride. They were aiming for the 60+. The one who was most likely to make it sagged in at 49.5. She said there was a constant headwind no matter which way the course turned. Her buddy made 67 miles. I tried the waffles on my ride today, one at the beginning and one at the turnaround point. They tasted wonderful and were very easy to digest, but I never felt any different after eating them. I bought the gels too, so I guess I'll try those next. What did you mean when you told Chris that nothing would be happening between miles 18 and 26 on the marathon, unlike an Ironman? Can you tell me about the bike and run course for the Toyota Open? Hilly, flat, good roads, etc. Also, is it probably going to be wetsuit legal (a whole new dimension for me)? And lastly, could you please tell me my race plan for two weeks from now? Most days I'm confident that I can finish. Every once in a while, this little voice rears its ugly head and says I can't but I keep ignoring it so eventually it will have to go bug someone else. Anyway, I want to have a good strong (for me) race. Thank you! |
| 2011-09-19 3:10 PM in reply to: #3436601 |
Master 3022 | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED
Above are three pace scenarios I constructed for my upcoming half. I am leaning toward the middle one (less aggressive) and hope that I can stay true to it to mile 9 and 10 and if I have it in me start accelerating. What worries me is that each scenario is faster than I have run a HM - knowing full well though that I have never run a "smart race". Mile 8 is the big hill coming out of the tunnel and I have allowed a slower pace there. Thoughts on my overall strategy? Question: My Higdon plan has me running a 15k race this Sunday as part of my training. It has me taking saturday off to do this. if I do it I will mark off a course locally and run my heart out. The plan has Saturday as a rest day to support the race pace on Sunday. My question is should I do the 15K or would I be better served practicing my pace scenario as detailed above (through mile 9)- thereby allowing me to gauge how my body will perform under such a scenario. I can manage the run so that the big hills are at 3 and 8 miles (approximately) like in the race itself. | ||
| 2011-09-19 3:28 PM in reply to: #3436601 |
| Maple Grove, MN | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED Mitch, Again, take whatever Ernesto says over what I say, but I like the middle one as well. Here's why: I actually don't think it matters much what you plan on doing after you finish mile 10. All that matters for planning purposes is miles 1 through 10, and these look reasonable. Once you reach mile 10, all you have is a 5k in front of you, and "curb your enthusiasm" doesn't really apply anymore. |
| 2011-09-19 8:14 PM in reply to: #3691359 |
Master 2238 Dallas | Subject: RE: Ernesto's group - CLOSED jdiis - 2011-09-18 6:58 PM About the course, both bike and run courses (even though they go in two different directions) have brutally steep hills (2 on the bike, 1 on the run) but only at the beginning, after that it is flat for the most part. Nothing to worry about, though. Mostly after training in A-Town with all those climbs.Ernesto, Sorry about your injury, maybe now a bad cramp. My two friends did that ride. They were aiming for the 60+. The one who was most likely to make it sagged in at 49.5. She said there was a constant headwind no matter which way the course turned. Her buddy made 67 miles. I tried the waffles on my ride today, one at the beginning and one at the turnaround point. They tasted wonderful and were very easy to digest, but I never felt any different after eating them. I bought the gels too, so I guess I'll try those next. What did you mean when you told Chris that nothing would be happening between miles 18 and 26 on the marathon, unlike an Ironman? Can you tell me about the bike and run course for the Toyota Open? Hilly, flat, good roads, etc. Also, is it probably going to be wetsuit legal (a whole new dimension for me)? And lastly, could you please tell me my race plan for two weeks from now? Most days I'm confident that I can finish. Every once in a while, this little voice rears its ugly head and says I can't but I keep ignoring it so eventually it will have to go bug someone else. Anyway, I want to have a good strong (for me) race. Thank you! The swim was BARELY wetsuit legal last year and I doubt it will be this year due to the stupidly high temperatures we've been having. On the other hand, race directors have been well known for "manipulating" temp readings (like going all over the lake looking for a spot that's wetsuit legal), this is done mostly for safety (newbies are more buoyant with wetsuits) so they have a smaller chance for drownings and such. Don't worry about finishing, you will. That is out of the question. My question to you is, are you healed? This race will sure be taxing, so make sure that there's no residual pain. As far as training, can you run normally? bike? tell me. |
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