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Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread (Page 6)
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 2009-07-12 5:39 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
Elite  5316   Alturas, California |  Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official ThreadHrm possible minor left calf pull 3 weeks prior to Vineman. So not cool. I will see how it feels tomorrow and maybe go see the doc to have him tell me, "stay off it and you will be fine." Sigh. |
| 2009-07-12 5:50 PM in reply to: #2279564 |
Champion 5781  Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Baowolf - 2009-07-12 3:39 PM Hrm possible minor left calf pull 3 weeks prior to Vineman. So not cool. I will see how it feels tomorrow and maybe go see the doc to have him tell me, "stay off it and you will be fine." Sigh. I'm in the same boat--jogging back up the beach today after last long workout (2+ mile ocean swim)--I caught a toe in the sand and stuck out my right leg to keep from falling. Pop went the hamstring. Pretty bad...though it's responding to ice and compression, so I'm hopeful if I keep rehabbing aggressively I'll be able to race. Could barely walk after it happened, though, and it's a notoriously slow-healing injury. Sucks to have this happen: Literally ten minutes after managing to get through months of training with no injuries and I get something freakish like this. |
| 2009-07-13 5:48 PM in reply to: #2279499 |
Extreme Veteran 573 Sherman Oaks, CA | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread i'm not an expert, but i'm just repeating what my coaches have been drilling in to me for the past 9-10 months. don't do gel on the bike. there is a very good chance that the amount of gel that you are consuming on the bike is going to disagree with your stomach on the run. i speak from experience. while the race is 3 weeks away, you should try some solids on the bike and see what you can ingest. power bars, other energy bars, PB&J, fig newtons, rice krispie bar treats, granola bars, pop tarts, a sandwich...all sorts of things people on my team eat. also look into purchasing CarboPro it is flavorless carbs to mix in to your water and/or your gatorade (I do both). the bike ride is going to be very hot so your nutrition is going to be key on the bike. figure out how much carbs you need per hour by dividing your weight by 2.2. the number you get is the number in grams of carbs that you need per hour. so if you weigh 150lbs, you'd need to take in 68g of carbs each hr. also, since this is a 2 loop course on the bike don't push the first loop and save some energy for the 2nd, no matter how "great" you feel. err on the side of caution to finish. good luck. |
| 2009-07-13 6:34 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread I'd respectfully disagree a bit with Sharon (or at least her coach, I guess) on the solid food thing...only inasmuch as I don't think you can generalize about it. There are some very accomplished people on BT, for instance, who do only fluid nutrition on the bike for an IM. I do mostly gels (and some blocks) and almost no "solids" and do just fine. (Frankly, after 107 miles in 99F heat on Saturday, I literally couldn't handle more than one bite of the Clif Bar I'd stashed for myself back at the car.) For marathons, I do only sports drinks and gels for calories (well, maybe the odd handful of pretzels late in the race)...can't stand solids in my stomach at that level of effort...nearly threw up the one time I tried a half a banana prior to a 10K. There are lots of people who swear by Coke late in the run...I tried it at the half Vineman last year and hated it. Everyone is very different that way and it's critical to be testing nutrition options under race (or near-race) level conditions. This weekend, I rode with two guys who are much stronger cyclists and multiple IM finishers on a 100+ ride in temps that got up to about 100F. One flat out bonked in the heat--we waited a long time at the finish for him to come in and he was out of it when he did. The other didn't fully bonk, but was running out of gas fast the last 20 miles. He'd dropped me at about mile 65, but I flew by him at mile 100...on a steep climb up a dam in 99F heat. He did at least 3 bottles of a custom mix and 3 bottles of sports drink (something like 140 oz of hydration) during the ride...I did 44 oz of Gatorade Tiger and about 8 oz of water. He was floored by how little hydration I took in under those conditions and yet blew by him...and I was the only one in our group with enough left to put in a brick run afterwards. Again, my point is just that everyone is different and you have to understand what you do AND don't need in terms of nutrition and hydration and the only way to determine that is to start with basic guidelines about number of calories (or carbs + protein or whatever) to attempt to replace per hour and assemble a "menu" for getting there composed of foods/beverages you can handle...and then adjust based on whether you are still winding up depleted or are shutting down digestion/absorption because of overload or inappropriate products. Just my .02, of course. |
| 2009-07-13 6:43 PM in reply to: #2282436 |
Extreme Veteran 573 Sherman Oaks, CA | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread i do agree, that everyone is different and you have to figure out what works for you. i was speaking strictly for the bike, trying some solids and upping the calories/carbs in fluids, seeing as what he's been doing thus far hasn't worked to get him thru a longer distance. i can't do anything more than gel blocks and maybe 1 or two fig newton's on the run. that's it. it's all liquids on the run for me. we did a 5/3 brick on saturday out in westlake village/simi valley/thousand oaks and it was crazy hot, in the upper 90s for sure. on the bike, i ate 1/2 of my pb&j, 2 fig newtons, some soy jerky and a whole lotta liquids (4-5 bottles). i can relate and can't always stomach the solids, but force it when i'm feeling i need it. on the run i drank/drenched myself w water only. i ate 2 clif blocks and about 4 potato chips. i try to fuel up on the bike so i don't have to ingest as much on the run. my .02 again. so now you've got 4 cents from me.
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| 2009-07-13 7:00 PM in reply to: #2282446 |
Master 1588 San Francisco | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread I don't eat a lot of solids when I race either. On the bike, it's maybe 2 or 3 bars and 3 or 4 gels for me. Hey, I've done running races where I've eaten pizza and grilled cheese sandwich, but yeah, normally liquids/gels on 26.2 or shorter. I went back to Joe's original message and it's strange that Joe already says he consumed as many calories as he output. I'm sure I don't take in as many calories as I burn and rely heavily on my aerobic fat-burning capacity (that's what base bulding is for!) and muscle glycogen. |
| 2009-07-13 8:40 PM in reply to: #2279499 |
Expert 822 | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Here's my $.02. I would look at your pacing, first and foremost. This should feel like an easy ride. Don't "push" at all. I did a 70-miler a few weeks ago and was pushing it, and I was dead coming off the bike. But last week I did a 100-miler, kept it at an "easy" pace, got off the bike and ran 30 minutes and still felt relatively good. Sounds like you're taking in enough calories (and maybe too much? -- I think shrano's 2.2x formula is a good start), so second I would look at your hydration. This is different for everyone and you can do a "sweat test" for yourself or just go by trial and error. My baseline is 1, 24oz bottle per hour, and it goes up as the temperature gets hotter (like 80F or more). If you're mixing calories in your drink, you need to be careful that you don't end up taking in too many calories because your stomach may not be able to absorb the fluid it needs until the calories are absorbed. When this happens to me my stomach feels "sloshy" -- like the fluid is not moving through. I do the majority of my calories as fluid calories with my drink (currently CarboPro), but save about 100 calories/hour for something more solid (currently Clif Bloks) for a little variety and to be able to keep my hourly calorie intake down when I'm drinking more as it gets hotter. I also keep plain water with me. Does that make sense? Mike |
| 2009-07-14 3:33 AM in reply to: #1848945 |
Elite 2634 in front of my computer duh! | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread wow thank you everyone for all your advice. It sounds like I am doing a few things wrong.... 1) To many calories. I thought, originally that I was taking in too few and that was causing me to bonk but after doing a little research plus reading what you all posted it sounds like my body is not able to absorb all the calories I am consuming and they just sit in my stomach and its like I didn't eat anything. Also as far as calories go I am going by the calorie counter in my Garmin Edge 305. I am not sure how far off it is but its all I have to go by at the moment. That is why I said I was consuming almost as much if not as much as I was putting out via Gatorade, Gel, Bars, etc. 2) The second very large mistake I have been making is my pacing. Ellismichael made a good point of going "easy" Its a big metal block for me because I feel like I am going too slow so I speed it up and end up running out of steam. So I need to slow it down to start off with and actually pay attention to what zone I am in as well as my cadence and not just pay attention to how fast I am going. I am going to experiment with some solid foods. I have found out apple jacks and fruit loops both work for me but, they make me really thirsty. Fortunately I have been blessed with a fairly rock solid stomach. I used to play water polo and there were several times I had to jump into the pool and do eggbeater drills with a half eaten 4x4 from In-N-Out (its a really good burger place thats in So. Cal, I think 1 or 2 in Vegas, and 1 on the boarder of CA and AZ - for anyone who is not from the area) in my hand and was just fine. As far as me sweating I have no idea how to do a sweat test all I know is that on long workouts there is a lot of salt deposits on my skin when I am done. I guess that means I sweat a lot of salt out of my body. How do I figure out how much salt is leaving my body per hour so that I know how much I need to put in. Let me know if I left out any info. All your advice and tips are all appreciated since this is the discipline I know absolutely nothing about and find the most complex and confusing. |
| 2009-07-14 1:24 PM in reply to: #2283265 |
Expert 822 | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread You don't have to deal with "zones" if you don't want to. You can just do it by feel. You know when you're pushing. Of course you'll have to push a bit to get up the hills. You can't really go by cadence or speed because you could be going 25mph and still not be struggling at all. Mentally it should feel uncomfortably slow -- at least that's how I think about it for me. Anytime I catch myself "pushing", I back off. You should also know that this is my first IM. Maybe if I had more experience at the longer distances, I would learn more refined pacing. And I can totally relate to the mental aspect, especially when there are other riders around. If you want to deal with HR zones, there's a good protocol on this site under a forum posting called something like "220 minus your age -- the truth." There is info on this site about sweat tests in the forums or wherever, but basically you weigh yourself before and after a workout, and subtract weight for how much you drank (16oz = 1 lb). Also take note of the duration, effort level, and outside temperature of the workout. This basically gives you your sweat rate under those conditions. It will be different on the bike than the run, and will go up in hotter weather and with greater effort. I can remember losing 4-5 lbs per hour on a warm run at a medium pace. It's really hard to drink that much, but I've been able to drink 2, 24oz bottles per hour on the run -- that's about 3 lbs. I recently had to re-tool my entire nutrition so I'm not really sure where I'm at on the electrolyte thing. I currently put 1 S!Cap into each bottle of drink. My Clif Bloks also have some electrolytes. I think it's important to have some electrolytes, especially on a long event, but your drink or gel or whatever may already have electrolytes in it and you might not need to add any. Also if your diet is not sparkling clean, you're probably getting a decent amount of sodium in your daily diet already. There are a lot of theories and info online about how much sodium, etc., that you lose per hour, but I don't think I've ever read about a simple test to find out how much exactly you need. I figure you need to take "some", it doesn't have to be a lot, more won't hurt you, and if you didn't happen to get enough during your workout, your diet will make up the difference. Mike |
| 2009-07-14 1:33 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
Master 1588 San Francisco | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread If you read the Friel book "Going Long", the number one mistake people make is going too hard on the bike in the first 90 minutes. It should feel very easy...don't worry, there's plenty of time for it to feel hard (e.g. chalk hill on the second loop). Just like with running, if you go out too hard at the start, you'll pay for it in multiples on the back end. Also, remember that everything is setting you up for the run, so you definitely don't want to hammer (and need to pay attention to your nutrition and hydration) on the bike only to have a death march on the run. I race entirely by RPE. I don't worry about my time, monitoring heart rate zones, etc. I don't wear a watch and I don't even have a bike computer on my bike. I just ride what I'm comfortable riding, but you need to know your body well enough to know what is comfortable (or just the right amount of discomfort as the case may be). |
| 2009-07-14 1:57 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Couldn't tell you what any of my heart rate zones are and am not really interested. Like Donato, I race and train by RPE...the more work you do at different paces in different temperatures and terrain, the more you recognize what level of effort you can sustain for how long. I will wear my Garmin 205 on the run (and probably the bike, just for the data post-race) as a way to monitor myself at the start so I don't go out faster than planned...I find it very hard not to do so when my heart rate is jacked up coming off a long ride and using the 205 just as a "speedometer" is helpful to me in that respect. For long rides, I tend to keep my bike computer set on the cadence display and not worry as much about how fast I'm going. |
| 2009-07-16 5:06 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
Master 1588 San Francisco | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread when are you all arriving? How about a BT meetup, perhaps either right before or right after the pre-race talk (or maybe we try both)? meetup for lunch or dinner? poweredbyfear and I are at the Holiday Inn in Windsor. We'll be driving up Friday, probably arriving around noon. |
| 2009-07-16 6:55 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread My wife and I are staying in a guest house at a winery outside Healdsburg, along with my sister and her BF (courtesy of my sister--the wine/beverage mgr at Pebble Beach--pulling some professional strings). We're getting in midday Friday. After check-in, my wife, sis and BF are going on to the winery for a requisite tour and tasting (in exchange for the free digs), while I stick around the HS for the race briefing. My wife's doing Barb's Race, so she'll be back after the tasting for her race briefing. I'd like to get together with BT folks (we had a really nice dinner before the 70.3 last summer)--the hitch is that we need to do the family thing with sis and BF...and my wife is on the Disney Tri Team, which has a pretty large contingent going up, betw. the Full, Barb's Race, and a relay team. I'll watch this thread for when a meetup might happen and hopefully we can at least stop by. |
| 2009-07-16 8:44 PM in reply to: #2290304 |
| Regular 99 TwinCities, MN | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Driving out from Minnesota on Tuesday 7/27 to my folks house out in Manteca. Spend the night there and make the trip to Windsor Friday morning. I want to get a quick swim in the river and drive a loop of the bike course and 1 loop of the run course. Staying in Santa Rosa at the Hilton Garden Inn. It's funny I spent my whole life living in the east bay until 2005 and never made the trip to Napa. Looking forward to it. I am in for dinner maybe. My wife and kids are going camping in Half Moon Bay. So I am on my own unless I convince my brother in law to come with me. |
| 2009-07-17 12:17 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
| 15 | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread I am arriving on Wed afternoon. This will be my first full IM. My plan is go for a short light run on Wed and a short light bike on Thurs if anyone wants to meet up. Staying at the Holiday Inn Express Windsor. For tapering, I am doing about 80% of last week this week and then about 50% next week and 30% the week of the race. Does that seem reasonable? Any thoughts/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. |
| 2009-07-17 1:47 PM in reply to: #2290304 |
Expert 822 | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread We arrive on Thursday and leave on Monday. We're staying at the WorldMark timeshare about 2 miles from the High School. I'd be up for a lunch or dinner meetup on Friday. I've been reading and thinking about T2. Sounds like your stuff sits and bakes in the sun all day on Friday and Saturday. Maybe it's a good idea to drop stuff off late on Friday. Maybe cover everything somehow. Any tips? Also, how is the space in T2? I'm thinking about setting up a medium-sized ice chest for COLD bottles and to double as a chair, but I've never done it at a race before. Do you think that would be possible? Mike |
| 2009-07-17 2:06 PM in reply to: #2292231 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Not sure how the space in T2 is for the Full/Barb's, only for the 70.3--but the 70.3 wasn't that packed and there were alot more athletes there than there will be for the Full. |
| 2009-07-17 3:10 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
Master 1588 San Francisco | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread I don't remember T2 being all that crowded for the full 2 years ago and the different races groups were segregated. That being said, i believe there are more registrations than in previous years. Yeah, it really bakes out there if it's a typical day. If you can squeeze a small ice chest into a normal sized transiton area, sounds like a cool (pun not intended) plan to me. |
| 2009-07-18 1:40 AM in reply to: #2292435 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread enginerd - 2009-07-17 1:10 PM I don't remember T2 being all that crowded for the full 2 years ago and the different races groups were segregated. That being said, i believe there are more registrations than in previous years. Yeah, it really bakes out there if it's a typical day. If you can squeeze a small ice chest into a normal sized transiton area, sounds like a cool (pun not intended) plan to me. ^^^ A lot more this year, esp. for the Full. I think there were only about 600 for the Full + Barb's Race last year and this year it's closer to a thousand. |
| 2009-07-18 1:46 AM in reply to: #1848945 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Bad news on my front: Just as I was starting to feel like I may be rehabbed from my hamstring pull in time for the Full, it looks like my wife may have broken a toe tonight and could be a DNS for Barb's Race. Even if it's just a sprain, the swelling's pretty bad and I have a hard time thinking she'll be able to run a HM on it in two weeks. We'll know more in the morning. Sucks especially badly cuz the whole reason I decided to do VM this year instead of trying for an M-Dot race next year was because Liz had decided to do Barb's, so we would be at Vineman for that...I didn't think it would be cool not to be at the finish line for her first-ever HIM, but she gave her blessing for me to sign up for the Full. I know it'll be really tough on her if things end up reversed from where they started and I race up there and she doesn't. Hopefully, tomorrow morning won't be spent getting x-rays... |
| 2009-07-18 9:34 PM in reply to: #2293038 |
Master 1588 San Francisco | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Todd, sorry to hear about your wife's toe. Hopefully she heals quickly. Did my last big ride (120 miles...should end up with over 700 this month!) so i can start my bike tapering. Already started my run tapering after last weekend. If I'm not overtrained and don't have a freak injury between now and then, i should be solid for the race. |
| 2009-07-18 11:24 PM in reply to: #2293896 |
Champion 5781 Northridge, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread enginerd - 2009-07-18 7:34 PM Todd, sorry to hear about your wife's toe. Hopefully she heals quickly. Thanks...it's at least a bad sprain (some discoloration and a little persistent swelling, neither of which are great signs), but she's improving and able to walk on it, so--fingers crossed--hopefully she'll be able to race. |
| 2009-07-19 11:02 AM in reply to: #1848945 |
Elite 5316 Alturas, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Good news, my calves are on the mend after taking a week off, basically. I was able to get in a 2500 swim, 75 mile bike, 3 mile bick yesterday (in 100 F weather 20 mph winds sigh) without issue or any soreness today. I iced everything that had been at all sore within the past month during the evening. Barring any relapses, I should be gtg I think. Hopefully your wife will be feeling significantly better after a week and getting to the point of at least a walk run by the end of two weeks. |
| 2009-07-19 4:30 PM in reply to: #2293038 |
| Regular 99 TwinCities, MN | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Home stretch now. Less than 2 weeks to go I just picked up my bike at the shop. Two new pro race 3 tires. New Chain and cassette. Todd hope your wife can toe the line and have a good race. |
| 2009-07-20 5:19 PM in reply to: #1848945 |
Elite 5316 Alturas, California | Subject: RE: Vineman Full Ironman : Official Thread Good timing..... I have finally gotten my swim into better shape and just in time. My 4200 yard pace matched my 2500 yard pace this week and both significantly better than last week. This thread should be livening up guys, everyone is tapering, but no one is chatting about how things are going, lets put some chat down. Is everyone going to the wine tasting party thing the night before the race? Like I am not sure that drinking alot of wine right before the race is such a good idea... or is it two days before I forget at this point. Anyway if folks are going to that we could meet up and such. |
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