PLMsbr (JD) Group - FULL (Page 6)

Will - great comments. And I really encourage everyone to share their opinions. I don't pretend to have all the answers, all I can claim is a little more time trying things out; and even then what works for me may not work for everyone. Even the big-time coaches don't agree on a lot of stuff!

Shawna - here are my thoughts on your last couple of posts:

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OK, I must admit that I do love Biggest Loser; and the new season looks like a good group. What I love is seeing people really change their lives, although a number of them end up backtracking after the show.

Anyway, in terms of taking breaks... I’ll start with the weight/strength training. The key there is that you don’t want to work out the same muscle group every day, you want to give that muscle group a day to recover. You are actually breaking down the muscle tissue when you do hard strength training, and the rest day is where the rebuilding process occurs. But you could do legs one day, upper body the next, or similar. Oh, and always try to work your largest muscle groups first, if possible.

For triathlon, very similar issue. You need to allow time for your muscles to recover and rebuild. However, now you have three sports to try to balance and fit in. Recovery depends a lot on the actual workout you are doing. The harder/more intense the workout, the more recovery you need. True swimmers seem to do fine swimming just about every day, probably due to the fact that there is very little impact to the body. However, they build up to that over time, and even then they have to watch for shoulder problems and injuries. Running is hard on the body, lots of impact, so you need to make sure and have recovery time; again dependent on how hard the workout is, how much base you have, etc. I run 4x/week normally, and try to get in a 5^th run when I need more mileage for marathon or full IM. I am careful about which runs end up being back to back. For instance, I would not do interval training the day after a very long run. Biking is not real high impact either, so you can do that fairly frequently; paying attention again to which workouts you may end up scheduling back to back.

Never just “do as much as you can” without considering the recovery factor; or you will end up frustrated with a lack of progress, and possibly injured. If you are doing shorter races, you don’t need as much mileage; and you can build in more rest/recovery. The longer races require mileage where it is hard to really have a full day off, or not do some exercises back to back. What you will see in a lot of plans (and what I do) is a week where you back down on the mileage, usually about every 3^rd or 4^th week. Same concept as the taper for a race, you are allowing your body to recover and build; so you come back stronger. Lots of paranoia out there (in my opinion) where people are overly fearful that a lighter week or even a day off (heaven forbid!) will destroy their training; but I just plain have not seen that in real life. I did an 8 day trip to Haiti a couple years ago where I could do no workouts for that entire time, and when I came back I went right back to training where I had left off, and had one of my best ½ IM’s about a month later.

So, am I driving you guys nuts with all these long and “it depends” answers?

Will...actually I work 10hr shifts from 230p-1a. The shift works out great. I'm home and in bed or asleep by 2am, get up 8-830, and have the whole morning to work out or do whatever. Then I eat lunch with my wife and I'm off to work at 2. And I only have to do it 4 days/wk. On my days off I'll have to do some training in the afternoon since the Boise HIM starts at 2pm. I've been doing all of my riding,running, etc in the a.m. for many years....hope your schedule mellows out......Tom

Shawna...I'm with you. I won't be much of a competitor in swimming but I'm working real hard on improving. I hope to make up for it in the bike and run....Tom

Wow, I missed the group for like 2 days, and thier has been so much going on.

I am still trying to figure out how Beowolf has to drive 100 miles to find a pool.  What part of California are you in?  I am guessing somewhere way north, as I have been up there in there before and it's hard to find facilities sometimes.  You are way dedicated, and my hat's off to you. 

I did my first, and only (so far) marathon in October, and although everyone told me not to go out fast, I went out fast and I got crushed.  That's my piece of advice for you.  AT that point, I was able to run 13 in 1:45 or so.  In the race, I ran the first half in 1:51, and had nothing left for the last half.  Right when I hit the 13 mile marker I knew I was screwed.  I could feel my energy dropping way low.  I also didn't fuel properly. 

The two biggest things I would do differently:  Go out slower and fuel before it's too late.

Good luck and I hope you can find a pool closer, that is really brutal having to drive that far to get your swim in.

OK, I did a quick breakdown of roughly how I would structure my long runs between the two events; which you can see below. For the 6/26 run, I might adjust that slightly depending on how recovered I really felt like I was. Then it's gradually increasing the distance; with a bit of a recovery week thrown in for the week ending 7/17. Build back up to at least one 20 miler, then taper. Maybe even make that run two weeks out a little longer, depending on how I was feeling.

For a first marathon, that would probably be enough to get you through it; especially if you really take to heart the advice above about controlling your pace in that first half. Ideally you'd have at least another month to work in a few more long runs, but you have to do what you have to do

Just my two cents...

Thanks JD...I think we all value your "2 cents"...Tom

Tom,

I'll be coming over for that 70.3 in Boise this year.  Any thoughts on where to stay?  I've read there are hotels right near the transition zones.  Is that a fun area of town?

My first half-IM also.  I'm excited about that 2pm start time.  6am in that water didn't sound like a lot of fun.

Thanks for the input,

Will

JD and co.,

Have any of you tried a 'Crash' week like Joe Friel describes in the Training Bible?  After the HIM in Boise I have 5 weeks get ready for a Tinman Tri (800m swim, 26 mi bike, 6 mi run) back here in Honolulu.  I'm planning on a light R&R week after the HIM, then a 'Crash' week, another R&R week, then tapering to the race over the last 2 weeks.. 

The book talks about a Crash week as a super intense week with a fair amount of duration that has to be followed by a recovery week.  Supposedly, it can improve your fitness quite a bit.  I'll be doing a lot of endurance work for the HIM, but not much speed work so I want to crank up the intensity pretty quickly.  

And JD, your two-cents are great.  I appreciate you taking the time to help out.

 Will

JD I appreciate your .02 also...

I have a cycling question.  As noted earlier in the thread I am spending about 3 hours per week cycling; a 30 minute easy ride as a brick following a hard run, a 1 hour hard ride doing 15 minutes of warm up then 30 minutes of intervals (Spinnerval DVD that came with KK trainer workout B) followed by 15 minutes cool down, and finally a 2 hour LSD.  I'm wondering if this is the best way to spend my cycling training time.  Would I be better off doing more of a tempo workout as opposed to the intervals?

I have only been cycling for about 6 months and I know that when it comes to running that most think that it is better to hold off on interval/speed type training and focus on tempo and slow distance until a solid base is built.  Is it the same for cycling?

The driving you have to do might make it worth the double swim day, as you can't be expected to do that 3 times per week.  I'll bet the area is beautiful though, must make for some nice runs and biking routes.

In regards to double days though, I did a 3300 yard swim workout today, and I would not be up for another one today.

I think I'm with Baowulf on this one. A crash week one week removed from a Half IM would be too much too soon. Since the Tinman is essentially an Olympic distance tri with a short swim; the distances should be no problem at all for you. So, I'd be thinking along the same lines as what he said; pretty lite the first week, start building the second; and you can probably have a pretty hard week on that third week. Back off a bit on the 4th week to start the taper, and then a pretty light week leading up to the Tinman. The 3rd and 4th weeks are where you could do some speed training/interval work.

First off, you're doing great to have any kind of structured training in your first year of triathlon. I was similar to a lot of (most?) people in my first couple years; all I knew was go out and swim/bike/run moderate distances, and hope I did okay on race day

Since you're focused on sprint distance races this year, I think the interval work is probably good to work on your base speed. Maybe you can alternate and do some tempo work every other week... try to sustain a good pace for 15-20 minutes or so. That might help with the actual races, when you will be trying to bike 30 minutes to an hour at a high speed.

The 2.4 mile swim does get easier the more swimming you do, but I think many tend to discount/underestimate the toll it takes as part of an IM. If you can get in 2 solid swims per week until spring, I think you'll be in good shape. I don't think you'd want to model yourself after my IM swim training plan; but I did manage a 1:17 swim at IM FL with 2 swim/week up until 3-4 months from the race. And even then I didn't make that 3rd swim very often. Again, not something I'm holding up as ideal, or even good - but I did finish in a reasonable time (for me); and did not feel overly taxed. I did a lot of open water swimming in that last 3 months, btw; and tried to get in 4000 yds or so at those swims.

This year, for comparison, I started in late November doing 3 sessions/week of over 3000 yards. My goal is not only to cut down a few minutes off the time, but to make sure that I can swim that distance with minimal impact to the rest of the day.

I had the same experience in my first marathon.  I cruised along at 8:45 and when I saw the 20 mile banner, my left arse cramped up and it was a lot of walking after that.  2:55 to 20 miles, then 90 minutes for the last 6 miles.  I think the shot to my pride was more painful than my cramping legs when the 60+ year old Japanese couple jogged past me.  

I made myself take it very easy this last marathon (my second) until that 20 mile mark, then I opened it up a little.  It felt a lot better.  My advice is to enjoy the scenery for the first 20, then go catch some folks if you have anything left.  I looked at your log the other day, Baowolf.  I think you're going to be faster than you expect.

Will

Thanks for the advice on the HIM.  I'll plan on taking that second week easy after the HIM.  It sounds like I'm underestimating how much that's going to take out of me.

What do you all do during your 3-4km swims?  I'm getting stronger and I can probably do that much, but it's all I can do to make myself stay in the pool for an hour.  BORING!!!  I do open water stuff around here too.  That makes it easier aside from jellyfish stings, but people told me a bunch of pool work will really help because you can structure your workouts a little better.  I haven't figured out how to structure my workouts yet to break the monotony.  Do you all mind sharing your pool time activities?

Thanks

Will

Hey there, hope everyone had a good weekend! We are all gonna be really envious of Baowolf once he gets that swimming pool done...

As far as what to do during the extended swims; the only way I've found that I can effectively get through that is to have a very clear plan going in. That is, I have a workout planned out (or planned for me) that is going to get me to the yardage I want. Then I just get to work on the workout, not thinking about time or yardage; but just tackling each piece one at a time. If I go in there only with a total yds goal, I start getting pretty bored after about 2K; and start making excuses for why I don't need to do much more

Masters has given me a few good ways to break it up... starting with a warm up set that can be something like 300 swim; 200 kick; 200 pull. Then maybe some short intervals (25's or 50's); throwing in some drill work. Main set is usually some combo of intervals, I'll list a couple recent ones below. Then some short interval or drill work at the end, and finish it all off with 200 cooldown. The key is that it is broken up into those segments, and you just focus on one segment at a time.

So, here's a few recent main set ideas:

5x100; 4x100, 3x100, 2x100, 100: each set the 100's get slightly faster (good for pacing)

6x400 on a fixed interval (no more than 30 seconds rest)

500, 400, 300, 200, 100: fixed interval that goes down proportional to the distance (e.g. 10 min, 8 min, 6 min, etc.)

JD

In regards to run pacing, my best marathon ever was last year; and I ran with a pace group. I had a choice between running with a pace group that would push me a little faster than I really thought I could do; or pick one that would hit my target time pretty much right on the nose. I chose the latter, and it ended up working great. I just stuck with that steady pace until about mile 17, and then I started pulling away ever so slowly. Ended up finishing just under my goal pace; and felt pretty good the whole race.

Our tendency is to go out too fast the first few miles, so I think that's where you have to watch it the most. The adrenaline, competition, and fresh legs can cause you to go out a minute/mile or more faster than your goal; which catches up with you at the end. I think I mentioned getting a Garmin 305 recently, and really liking the lap pace function. I did a 20 miler on Sunday, and used that to keep my pace under control those first few miles. Ended up very steady, and was actually able to kick the last 1.5 miles pretty strong (for me).

Oh, and my next actual racing event is a duathlon in a couple weeks; should be fun if it isn't freezing cold like last year