Beer Drinker Appreciation Society 2 - Closed (Page 60)

Originally posted by Burd

I am seriously considering changing up my '14 race plans. I still want to do the oly in Jan and eventually do a full IM but after doing these 2 sprints I want to go fast! I think I may steer my training to improving my times and focus on that instead of just trying to go long. I won't abandon my IM journey just set it off by a year. I figure I would be in that much better shape for it and may actually do well on the time and not just survive. In my mind and based on my racing as a teen (I actually used to win XC meets in H.S.) I honestly think I can break the 1 hour mark at next years Sept. race. The speed is in my body I just let it go and I think with some hard work I can get it back and be on the podium. Thoughts?

Originally posted by Burd

I am seriously considering changing up my '14 race plans. I still want to do the oly in Jan and eventually do a full IM but after doing these 2 sprints I want to go fast! I think I may steer my training to improving my times and focus on that instead of just trying to go long. I won't abandon my IM journey just set it off by a year. I figure I would be in that much better shape for it and may actually do well on the time and not just survive. In my mind and based on my racing as a teen (I actually used to win XC meets in H.S.) I honestly think I can break the 1 hour mark at next years Sept. race. The speed is in my body I just let it go and I think with some hard work I can get it back and be on the podium. Thoughts?

Originally posted by SportzVision

Octavio had a great sprint...I barely survived the Oly at the San Diego Tri! This had to be the worst, hardest, toughest race so far! To start I felt a little ill prepared and the sciatic was its consistent self, pain in my a$$, literally. I also did the tri in the middle of moving the oldest, who is going through the Big D, and my g-son pack and move back home with us. I tired not to lift anything heavy the days leading up to the race and after, well I couldn't lift anything if I wanted to. Then it took us 12 hours to get home...so much for my end of summer vaca!

So the swim, while in the marina, was pretty good. I felt strong, found a great pace and drafted for a bit. I got to the first buoy, made the turn into the bay and hit the in coming tide! It was a wall. I swam and swam and the next buoy never got closer! When I arrived to that next buoy five people were already there holding on.. the boat announced they were picking people up, 3 at a time. I saw people on the boat and then dive into the water, I heard a women crying and another guy shout he needed picked up that he couldn't do it. I told the guys with me, come on we can do this! I took off swimming and when I stopped to sight I didn't seem any closer to the next buoy so I looked back...all the guys were still holding onto the buoy and looking at me as if to say, "well you didn't get very far!", and I hadn't. As a matter of fact as the scene unfolded before my eyes the buoy with the guys on it was now in front of me. I had been pushed back faster than you just read this. A stand up boarder told me to get behind and kick and he would get me back to where I started. Again, stroke after stroke and no forward movement. Just then they announced for us to turn around and head back. I did not need to be told twice I swam back, thinking the tide would push me but when I turned into the marina the tide was gone.

As I took the large step onto the stairs to get out of the water my leg cramped so bad it looked like a twisted oak...I fell back in the water. The male volunteer pulled me to landing and said he was going to carry me up the stairs...ummm no! However, I was beginning to panic from the pain. Two more times he said he was going to carry me up the stairs....still no from me I wanted to finish this race. I did allow him to help me up the stairs, as if I had a choice, and when I got to the top medical was there to direct me to the medical tent. The medical tent was to the right, I turned left so walking along side of me on the way to transition the medical personnel gave me salt and electrolytes. That helped tremendously with the cramping until I got on the bike.

I had nothing for the bike and had to walk up the first hill. I tried to pedal harder and faster and could not muster any strength and people passed me like I was standing still. As you can guess the run was the same thing. However, I decided, after trying to run and failing miserably that I could walk, walk fast. So I did and I was not the only one suffering out there because I passed four or five people just by walking fast.

Long a$$ story short, I finished, I added about an hour to my time but I finished. First time ever that I have felt like crying as I approached the finish line. After the race, cruddy Michelob Ultra was the punishment...oh but gwaaaddd it tasted fantastic, free massage from an ex marine named Ian, who might have talked a bit too much, and my grandson cheering me on all the way! I am still sore but there is a 5K on Saturday to raise $ for a local cancer patient. Seriously, I really have nothing to complain about; lets run!

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon

Somebody tell me not to do this race, please.

I'm considering going to visit some family next weekend, and of course, there's a triathlon - Last Tri Triathlons. The long course is pretty nifty, at 1.5k swim, 42 mile bike, and 10k run - so kind a 3/8 distance race. Forecast is currently a high of 77, so cool but not cold.

It's a week before the Chicago Marathon. I'm in the middle of my taper, and I've hit all my key metrics. I've got a long trail ride set for Saturday, then a race-pace half marathon this Sunday.

I'm still disappointed in how my tri season ended, with a 4 hour finish at Chicago due to bad nutritional choices. I've made nutrition corrections, and I feel that I am at peak fitness now; my bike's been neglected, but my swim is strong and my run is at it's best.

My running taper would give me two full days of rest after the race, 1 hard workout, then two easy runs and a rest day before the marathon. Right now everything is at 100%, no strains, no injuries, no hip or foot problems, no little niggling pain anywhere (knock on wood).

I won't bother lying to myself - if I go there, I'm going to race it; I might hold back on the bike a bit, but whatever I hold back there is going to be dumped back in the run.

****

On the converse side, I've been debating my marathon pace. All the pace estimators put me on track for a 4:25 or 4:30 finish, or a 10:17 pace. That puts my HR around 142 to start, then I drift up from there. On my long training runs, I usually try to hold 13x for as long as possible, which is high zone 1.

If I try to hold zone 1 for the first half, I'm probably looking at a 4:45 finish, but I'll finish feeling pretty good. If I shot for a 4:30 or 4:25, it's going to hurt. The general advice is to aim to finish the first marathon, but do I need to check my ego and accept a strong finish that leaves me feeling pretty good, or do I go for it?

***

If I race Last Try, I'll be more inclined to accept an easier marathon.

***

Thoughts? Don't screw with my marathon? Go forth and race?

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon



During the course of my marathon training, I've lopped 30 seconds off my z2 pace;

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon

Somebody tell me not to do this race, please.

I'm considering going to visit some family next weekend, and of course, there's a triathlon - Last Tri Triathlons. The long course is pretty nifty, at 1.5k swim, 42 mile bike, and 10k run - so kind a 3/8 distance race. Forecast is currently a high of 77, so cool but not cold.

It's a week before the Chicago Marathon. I'm in the middle of my taper, and I've hit all my key metrics. I've got a long trail ride set for Saturday, then a race-pace half marathon this Sunday.

I'm still disappointed in how my tri season ended, with a 4 hour finish at Chicago due to bad nutritional choices. I've made nutrition corrections, and I feel that I am at peak fitness now; my bike's been neglected, but my swim is strong and my run is at it's best.

My running taper would give me two full days of rest after the race, 1 hard workout, then two easy runs and a rest day before the marathon. Right now everything is at 100%, no strains, no injuries, no hip or foot problems, no little niggling pain anywhere (knock on wood).

I won't bother lying to myself - if I go there, I'm going to race it; I might hold back on the bike a bit, but whatever I hold back there is going to be dumped back in the run.

****

On the converse side, I've been debating my marathon pace. All the pace estimators put me on track for a 4:25 or 4:30 finish, or a 10:17 pace. That puts my HR around 142 to start, then I drift up from there. On my long training runs, I usually try to hold 13x for as long as possible, which is high zone 1.

If I try to hold zone 1 for the first half, I'm probably looking at a 4:45 finish, but I'll finish feeling pretty good. If I shot for a 4:30 or 4:25, it's going to hurt. The general advice is to aim to finish the first marathon, but do I need to check my ego and accept a strong finish that leaves me feeling pretty good, or do I go for it?

***

If I race Last Try, I'll be more inclined to accept an easier marathon.

***

Thoughts? Don't screw with my marathon? Go forth and race?

Originally posted by Qua17



Now I just have to make it to the starting line. I've got 26.5 weeks to make this happen and I'm really going to need to focus on getting over the hump during the month of October. It means spending money I really don't have for some physical therapy - but I'd rather put 250 on the credit card for 10 pt copays than lose the 2,000 I've already investing into IM Mont Tremblont.

I know I sound like a broken record - always being injured - and I want to thank you for your support. It's been a frustrating year and I probably would have just quit if it wasn't for y'all - and for the coors lite penalty I would have to endure.

Onward!

Originally posted by BigDH

On the converse side, I've been debating my marathon pace. All the pace estimators put me on track for a 4:25 or 4:30 finish, or a 10:17 pace. That puts my HR around 142 to start, then I drift up from there. On my long training runs, I usually try to hold 13x for as long as possible, which is high zone 1.

If I try to hold zone 1 for the first half, I'm probably looking at a 4:45 finish, but I'll finish feeling pretty good. If I shot for a 4:30 or 4:25, it's going to hurt. The general advice is to aim to finish the first marathon, but do I need to check my ego and accept a strong finish that leaves me feeling pretty good, or do I go for it?

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon



Hopefully it will be the last time you make those mistakes. Nutrition is a fine line and it is even more important in the marathon than in a Oly. It is a fine friggen line, especially when you are out there for 4+ hours.

I do not know on what race you are basing your prediction. Given your relative low volume (I mean you have good volume but it is not marathon training volume, despite that 2 week 92 mile total) and without a half marathon time, I would not even hazard a guess.

Given your experience at the oly and the fact it is your first time I would check your ego at the door. Those predictors really lose their effectiveness when talking about people in the 4+ hour category, I think.

I had a great marathon this year, I ran it in 4:30, which was 30 minutes slower than last year, and it was awesome. I was laughing all the way to 30km and even after 30km I felt pretty darn good. I did a 4 hour last year and it was the most tortuous thing I did, there is nothing I have experienced that is as gut wrenching and mind twisting horrible as running a marathon as fast as you can, because you have to choose to do it to yourself.

Sounds like you got a good idea about your heart rate, so you want to keep it well low in the beginning, take in a reasonable number of gels or sport drink to delay the wall. For the first half you should feel like you are wasting all the training you did. It should literally feel like a walk in the park. There should be no pain, no heavy breathing, no soreness. After 20 k, after you have been out there for 2 hours, it will get harder. Your muscles will draw on different reserves, reserves that it does not have practice tapping. You will start to suffer. But it won't be that bad, and you will think that, you will think gee, this is pretty boring. Why did I listen to that dumbbo. But then you will notice that no one is passing you which will be strange because for the first 10k people were passing you for sure, and you are starting to pick people off. And people are walking. That they look kind of green. And you will get strength from that. Because as bad as your legs hurt and as high as your heart rate is starting to spike, you don't look like a pile of ****. Then you will hit 30k and there will be wreckage all around you, it will start to sting now a bit, but you only have 75 minutes left and you know you will be able to hold it, maybe even step it up a very small bit, but you probably won't because you will try and that small bit of pain in your legs will increase in a manner all out of proportion with your increase in speed and you will lack the motivation to PUSH IT, which is fine. Because you will be able to finish super strong, and happy. And you will probably be able to do a 5k recovery run the next day.

Sure, if you are 5k out and you want to feel some of that pain, and you want to hobble down the stairs for the next week, then open it up, but you best have a direct line to nirvana because you will never experience such a bout of negativity and regret and all the emotions.

On the other side of the coin, if you really want to run a marathon as fast as you can, I think it takes practice. Very tough to get the nutrition right. Very very tough. Running the marathon like I suggest will give you some practice. But the best practice is to try and fail. Maybe. I don't know. I guess I just don't think, based on your training, that you have it in you to run a marathon as fast as you could run a marathon. Which seems internally illogical because certainly if you try to run as fast as you can you will run it as fast as you can. But it just won't be pretty. I mean I tried and failed twice before I hit it out of the park and had that perfect day. There is a difference between

1. crawling and dragging yourself across the finish line knowing you did the best you could; (which you could do now)
2. Hitting that perfect pace, going deep into your soul, and collapsing at the finish line with a smile on your face( which is what you want but really are unlikely to find) and
3. Having a really super awesome fun great day. Which you can have, guaranteed.

This was long, I could go on forever.

Originally posted by kevinbe

This morning I failed to answer the call for the first time this month. My calf is still strained, and I did not want to get up just to do circuit training at the gym this morning, so I decided to give it one more day off of running and hope that is a wise choice. I'm off tomorrow, with a less long run of 8.5 scheduled for Sunday.

BIL and I are going to the Prep football game tonight, and I'll make sure to have a Bud light or something equally cr@ppy as my coors light penalty for missing the call.

Originally posted by mirthfuldragon



Hopefully it will be the last time you make those mistakes. Nutrition is a fine line and it is even more important in the marathon than in a Oly. It is a fine friggen line, especially when you are out there for 4+ hours.

I do not know on what race you are basing your prediction. Given your relative low volume (I mean you have good volume but it is not marathon training volume, despite that 2 week 92 mile total) and without a half marathon time, I would not even hazard a guess.

Given your experience at the oly and the fact it is your first time I would check your ego at the door. Those predictors really lose their effectiveness when talking about people in the 4+ hour category, I think.

I had a great marathon this year, I ran it in 4:30, which was 30 minutes slower than last year, and it was awesome. I was laughing all the way to 30km and even after 30km I felt pretty darn good. I did a 4 hour last year and it was the most tortuous thing I did, there is nothing I have experienced that is as gut wrenching and mind twisting horrible as running a marathon as fast as you can, because you have to choose to do it to yourself.

Sounds like you got a good idea about your heart rate, so you want to keep it well low in the beginning, take in a reasonable number of gels or sport drink to delay the wall. For the first half you should feel like you are wasting all the training you did. It should literally feel like a walk in the park. There should be no pain, no heavy breathing, no soreness. After 20 k, after you have been out there for 2 hours, it will get harder. Your muscles will draw on different reserves, reserves that it does not have practice tapping. You will start to suffer. But it won't be that bad, and you will think that, you will think gee, this is pretty boring. Why did I listen to that dumbbo. But then you will notice that no one is passing you which will be strange because for the first 10k people were passing you for sure, and you are starting to pick people off. And people are walking. That they look kind of green. And you will get strength from that. Because as bad as your legs hurt and as high as your heart rate is starting to spike, you don't look like a pile of ****. Then you will hit 30k and there will be wreckage all around you, it will start to sting now a bit, but you only have 75 minutes left and you know you will be able to hold it, maybe even step it up a very small bit, but you probably won't because you will try and that small bit of pain in your legs will increase in a manner all out of proportion with your increase in speed and you will lack the motivation to PUSH IT, which is fine. Because you will be able to finish super strong, and happy. And you will probably be able to do a 5k recovery run the next day.

Sure, if you are 5k out and you want to feel some of that pain, and you want to hobble down the stairs for the next week, then open it up, but you best have a direct line to nirvana because you will never experience such a bout of negativity and regret and all the emotions.

On the other side of the coin, if you really want to run a marathon as fast as you can, I think it takes practice. Very tough to get the nutrition right. Very very tough. Running the marathon like I suggest will give you some practice. But the best practice is to try and fail. Maybe. I don't know. I guess I just don't think, based on your training, that you have it in you to run a marathon as fast as you could run a marathon. Which seems internally illogical because certainly if you try to run as fast as you can you will run it as fast as you can. But it just won't be pretty. I mean I tried and failed twice before I hit it out of the park and had that perfect day. There is a difference between

1. crawling and dragging yourself across the finish line knowing you did the best you could; (which you could do now)
2. Hitting that perfect pace, going deep into your soul, and collapsing at the finish line with a smile on your face( which is what you want but really are unlikely to find) and
3. Having a really super awesome fun great day. Which you can have, guaranteed.

This was long, I could go on forever.



I appreciate the advice and commentary.

In regards to raw run mileage, August was an off month due to running two olympics, and I expected it to be a cruddy month. I am at the low end of the marathon volume, but they've all been quality miles, so I'm pretty happy with them overall.

On 8/31, I ran a 2:05 half marathon, self-paced, with a cooler of gatorade sitting in front of my house for an aid station. I was wearing my Kinvara 3s, and it took my feet 10 days to recovery, especially in the inflamed plantar tendons.

On 9/8, I ran 15 miles in my Zoot Kapilanis, and the last few miles tore my feet up. My Triumph 9s (my normal cushy trainers) were completely dead, and I didn't want to run in the Kinvara's again . . . not a great choice there either. Ran on straight water, splits steadily getting slower. Only real value was as a learning experience - bring nutrition, wear shoes suited for the distance. I slammed into the Wall pretty hard that day.

9/13, sporting my new Hoka Tarmacs, I ran a self-paced 3:50 20-miler. My only goal was to finish and hit the number, and the weather was gorgeous. My average heart rate was 136 for the duration. I stayed sub-140 for the first 16 miles, then decided to gradually ramp it up for the last 4. For the first 16 miles, my pace was 11:xx, and the last 4 came out to 10:24, 11:05 (stopped for traffic), 9:24, and 8:34. I finished that all smiles, and wondering if I shouldn't go and run those last 6.2 miles. I recognized that those last 6.2 are going to hurt, and I had a wedding to go to that evening.

On 9/21, I ran the 20-miler group training run in 3:28, following the 10:30 pace group. I dropped the pacer for the last 4 miles, and finished those last 4 around 9:40 pace. The weather was warmer (hitting around 74 at the finish), and I was going faster, but I still felt pretty good at the end.

Using the 2:05 half as a baseline, I get predictions of 4:23 from Mcmillan. Mcmillan also spits out 7:46 for the mile and 56:04 for a 10k, and my mile is 7:38 and my 10k is around 54:00 (pacing conservatively during the 10k).

Using Jeff Galloway's calculator, based on the 7:38 magic mile, gives me a 2:23 half marathon, and a 54:26 10k, and a predicated 4:19 marathon. My 10k was in July, so I think I'm probably a 52:00 10k now, and my recent self-paced half marathon was 15 minutes faster than the Galloway predictor.

I'm pretty happy with my nutrition on the long runs right now. My plan is to live off the course, and walk at least half the aid stations (they are two blocks long, it's a huge race), and grab a double drink every other aid station. That should put me at about 200 to 250 calories per hour, so +800 to +1,000 against an estimated 3,000 burn; I'll come in topped-up with complex carbs (banana + otameal early, another banana ~90 minutes pre-race, and about 8oz of sports drink 30min prior to start), plus a solid but not huge meal the day before. If the past is a prediction, I'll have to pee about an hour in. That puts my fluid intake around 20oz an hour. If I feel any thirst, I'll grab gatorade and water.

I'm still too far out to get a read on the weather. Anything over 70, I'll tone it down a notch. I'd love to see a high around 60 or 65, or better yet, a cold day! If I see a 75 or 80 (possible in chicago), I'll go by heart rate only, disable the pace function on my garmin, and stay in the 13X for as long as possible (probably a 12:xx pace).

***

I think you nailed it on the head - do I have it in me to run a marathon as fast as I theoretically could run a marathon, and that's the question.

In June I rode the Rev3 Dells half-iron bike course, and it broke me, hard. I dug deeper than I ever had before and I haven't dug that deep since - I'm proud of that effort, but there's equal amount of stupidity involved, and poor-decision-making. In complete honesty, on a 1 to 10 scale, that ride was an 11. If nothing else, it showed me what I can accomplish, and at what cost.

My debate is whether I want to hit a 7.5 or a 9 effort at the marathon; how much do I want to leave on the table? The prudent thing to do is probably to take it easy, watch the heart rate for the first half, ignore the pace, and enjoy my city like I haven't before, then play it easy for the second half, and drill the last 5k; which is what I'll probably do (70%). I mean, ultimately, there isn't a lot of difference or bragging rights between a 4:30 or a 4:45 marathon - from other's eyes, it's finishing the counts. I'm not going to qualify for Boston this run, and it's a PR the second I step over the finish line.

And if I leave something out on the course, well, that shortcoming is between me and my God, and I can always go and get it next year.


P.S. Sorry for the essay, but I couldn't stop and it feels good to write it out.

Originally posted by Qua17



I loved reading your story. You battled the course and won! Outstanding. You are one of the toughest people in this group and your story is an inspiration to me to get off my @ss. Enjoy that 5K this week!

PS - Michelob Ultra - seriously?

Originally posted by kevinbe

Weighed in safely south of the 200 lb. border this morning at 197.3. My jaw did hit the floor. Haven't seen under 200 in several months. maybe several sets of months. Calf feels doable. will run 8.5 tomorrow or bust!

Originally posted by BigDH



Hopefully it will be the last time you make those mistakes. Nutrition is a fine line and it is even more important in the marathon than in a Oly. It is a fine friggen line, especially when you are out there for 4+ hours.

I do not know on what race you are basing your prediction. Given your relative low volume (I mean you have good volume but it is not marathon training volume, despite that 2 week 92 mile total) and without a half marathon time, I would not even hazard a guess.

Given your experience at the oly and the fact it is your first time I would check your ego at the door. Those predictors really lose their effectiveness when talking about people in the 4+ hour category, I think.

I had a great marathon this year, I ran it in 4:30, which was 30 minutes slower than last year, and it was awesome. I was laughing all the way to 30km and even after 30km I felt pretty darn good. I did a 4 hour last year and it was the most tortuous thing I did, there is nothing I have experienced that is as gut wrenching and mind twisting horrible as running a marathon as fast as you can, because you have to choose to do it to yourself.

Sounds like you got a good idea about your heart rate, so you want to keep it well low in the beginning, take in a reasonable number of gels or sport drink to delay the wall. For the first half you should feel like you are wasting all the training you did. It should literally feel like a walk in the park. There should be no pain, no heavy breathing, no soreness. After 20 k, after you have been out there for 2 hours, it will get harder. Your muscles will draw on different reserves, reserves that it does not have practice tapping. You will start to suffer. But it won't be that bad, and you will think that, you will think gee, this is pretty boring. Why did I listen to that dumbbo. But then you will notice that no one is passing you which will be strange because for the first 10k people were passing you for sure, and you are starting to pick people off. And people are walking. That they look kind of green. And you will get strength from that. Because as bad as your legs hurt and as high as your heart rate is starting to spike, you don't look like a pile of ****. Then you will hit 30k and there will be wreckage all around you, it will start to sting now a bit, but you only have 75 minutes left and you know you will be able to hold it, maybe even step it up a very small bit, but you probably won't because you will try and that small bit of pain in your legs will increase in a manner all out of proportion with your increase in speed and you will lack the motivation to PUSH IT, which is fine. Because you will be able to finish super strong, and happy. And you will probably be able to do a 5k recovery run the next day.

Sure, if you are 5k out and you want to feel some of that pain, and you want to hobble down the stairs for the next week, then open it up, but you best have a direct line to nirvana because you will never experience such a bout of negativity and regret and all the emotions.

On the other side of the coin, if you really want to run a marathon as fast as you can, I think it takes practice. Very tough to get the nutrition right. Very very tough. Running the marathon like I suggest will give you some practice. But the best practice is to try and fail. Maybe. I don't know. I guess I just don't think, based on your training, that you have it in you to run a marathon as fast as you could run a marathon. Which seems internally illogical because certainly if you try to run as fast as you can you will run it as fast as you can. But it just won't be pretty. I mean I tried and failed twice before I hit it out of the park and had that perfect day. There is a difference between

1. crawling and dragging yourself across the finish line knowing you did the best you could; (which you could do now)
2. Hitting that perfect pace, going deep into your soul, and collapsing at the finish line with a smile on your face( which is what you want but really are unlikely to find) and
3. Having a really super awesome fun great day. Which you can have, guaranteed.

This was long, I could go on forever.

Originally posted by SportzVision


PS - Michelob Ultra - seriously?

Originally posted by kevinbe

Weighed in safely south of the 200 lb. border this morning at 197.3. My jaw did hit the floor. Haven't seen under 200 in several months. maybe several sets of months. Calf feels doable. will run 8.5 tomorrow or bust!

Originally posted by kevinbe

Weighed in safely south of the 200 lb. border this morning at 197.3. My jaw did hit the floor. Haven't seen under 200 in several months. maybe several sets of months. Calf feels doable. will run 8.5 tomorrow or bust!

Originally posted by kevinbe Weighed in safely south of the 200 lb. border this morning at 197.3. My jaw did hit the floor. Haven't seen under 200 in several months. maybe several sets of months. Calf feels doable. will run 8.5 tomorrow or bust!