GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

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Southern California

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

BabsVa - 2009-04-22 4:22 PM

Eventually I got to the point where I would run at a faster pace with an HR in the 140s. It'll happen, it justs take a good aerobic base and time.

Reno8

I agree 100% on the aerobic base.

How long from when you guys FIRST started training did it take to get to a good aerobic base? I guess that is too complicated of a question to ask and try to apply to myself. I do not have any sort of aerobic base prior to this year. I started training in January and have been hitting between 5 and 6 days a week of either s/b/r or both since then. Not much before January. So I am just trying to get an idea of how long it will take me to build up a good base where my HR is not super high.

I think the heat played a bit of a role yesterday, today was a bit more controlled.

My Race Log

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Southern California

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

1h 01m 38s

14.23 miles

13.85 Mi/hr

Avg HR: 148
Max HR: 173

Tried not to be freaked out about HR and looking at it every 30 seconds. Fun ride, nice and cool outside

25m 22s

2.15 miles

11m 48s/Mi

Avg HR: 142
Max HR: 166

Ran off the bike today. Walked for 2 min then went 5:1, felt really good.

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(042409run.jpg)

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Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

cjhild - 2009-04-24 12:20 PM
How long from when you guys FIRST started training did it take to get to a good aerobic base?

Justin - Good question. It is hard to know exactly how to answer as I spent years walking a lot, and dancing so I had a sort of base but not in running. I do feel there was another kind of aerobic base I had to gain in swimming, that I could not quite just trade in my fitness in other activities for swimming endurance. And that has taken ... a couple years.

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Verona WI--Ironman Bike Country!

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

cjhild - 2009-04-24 11:20 AM

BabsVa - 2009-04-22 4:22 PM

Eventually I got to the point where I would run at a faster pace with an HR in the 140s. It'll happen, it justs take a good aerobic base and time.

Reno8

I agree 100% on the aerobic base.

How long from when you guys FIRST started training did it take to get to a good aerobic base? I guess that is too complicated of a question to ask and try to apply to myself. I do not have any sort of aerobic base prior to this year. I started training in January and have been hitting between 5 and 6 days a week of either s/b/r or both since then. Not much before January. So I am just trying to get an idea of how long it will take me to build up a good base where my HR is not super high.

I think the heat played a bit of a role yesterday, today was a bit more controlled.

I don't remember exactly, but if you stick with it you will definitely see progress in a few months. Try searching the forum, there are several people who have discussed their results and they were encouraging.

Have a good weekend everybody. It was 82F here today and is supposed to be 49F and pouring tomorrow. Trainer day!

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Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

So what y'all got going on for the weekend?

I've got my easy run done. Next: son's baseball game, then the local parade, then 2K in the pool. Tomorrow ride the Blue Ridge Parkway, about two hours. It's at about 2800 feet, which doesn't impress you western staters, but that's about 2500 feet higher than in town here, and the views and dogwoods, etc should be stunning.

Have a good one everybody!

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Southern California

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

BabsVa - 2009-04-25 6:23 AM

So what y'all got going on for the weekend?

Brick yesterday, long ride today in the Park, day off tomorrow. My wife and I have a date day: lunch, mall, movie, dinner, home (looking forward to some alone time with my lady). House work tomorrow, some painting, building a tortoise outdoor habitat, etc.

ride the Blue Ridge Parkway

How was the ride? Sound like a good one.

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Southern California

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Barb and Suzy- thanks for the input on aerobic base. Just doing what I always do, want something and want it NOW!

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Southern California

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Today:

1h 54m

26.03 miles

13.70 Mi/hr

Avg HR: 143
Max HR: 180

National Park- Keys View over to Skull Rock. Windy today and cold. Had a great ride.

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187

Northern Virginia

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Blue Ridge parkway is a beautiful place. Never ridden it though.

I rode the other day and just concentrated on keeping my heart rate at or below 160. I wasn't going much slower then I my fastest, but I felt like I could go "forever". Too bad I only had 30 minutes. I thought I would have to work hard to go fast, but I am learning I need to work hard to go long and stay healthy.

Today we went to beach on the Chesapeake Bay. Really nice. Water was about 55 degrees. Did a little swimming, but mostly checked out the wetsuit fit and did some T1 practice. I think I amused everyone there by jumping in the water swimming out and then back and running across the sand stripping my wetsuit off half a dozen times. Good work out and better practical experience.

About 85 here today, 90 tomorrow. Planning on a run and to watch the heart rate.

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Expert

626

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Blue Ridge Parkway ride today. Lots of climbing.

Matthew sure glad you could entertain onlookers with your T1 drill. Gosh I should do that. Did get my wetsuit out and soak it the other day.

So who here got their first sunburn of the season this weekend?

And one more question to ponder: why are there so many guys in cycling? We saw lots of riders today, more cyclists than cars, which made it a great place to ride, but besides us, only one other gal. Why is that?

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Northern Virginia

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Cycling seems like it should be a gender neutral sport, but I do see more guys then gals too.

The top of my feet are a little red from Saturday and hurt a little when I put on my running shoes today. I don't usually get serious sunburns so it was enough to remind me I need to put sunscreen everywhere and not forget it the morning of kinetic. Hope you stayed burn free.

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Southern California

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

BabsVa - 2009-04-26 11:55 AM

Looks beautiful.

Yeah, I always see more dudes on bikes than chicks, not sure what that is all about. How about in youth, do girls ride bikes as much as boys? If they were not doing it when they were young in an equal ratio then you would expect there to be a gulf now, which there is.

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626

Wahiawa, Hawaii.... but now in Florence, KY..

Subject: RE: GordoByrn -- Open For New Short Course Triathletes

Boom,

Welcome

Question for you about your swimming -- how relaxed do you feel in the water when you swim?

g

Not relaxed at all.... I mean it has nothing with the water it's my breathing... i feel like i struggle with breathing. I try to bilateral breath all the time but i can only do it for maybe 75 meters... once the bilateral breathing stops... i'm usually tired? So inturn, i then feel uncomfortable because my breathing is labored. Breathing sucks so then i get tired and then i get uncomfortable then i'm not relaxed any more.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Boom

If you can do 75s with the b/l 3 then stick to 50s for your swimming (now). Build your endurance while relaxed -- you can do that with 50s, or even 25s. Be wary of using the rest to "go fast" -- key is to use the rest to stay relaxed. Once you learn to take relaxed breaths, you'll find it much easier to stay comfortable for 100 and beyond.

If you've ever played golf, or tennis, then swimming is a lot like that... a series of strokes linked over time. To get the most of your strokes, you need to build, then maintain that relaxation.

Check out this article for additional background...

http://www.endurancecorner.com/library/swimming/benchmarking_your_swimming

It gives you a road map on how to develop.

g

I am still having issues with this... i was wondering, could i just not be getting enough air? I keep telling myself that maybe because i was a smoker that my lungs are still messed up but i doubt it.... I can swim 50's comfortably and 75 kind of comfortably but am real nervous because my 2nd Tri is in 2 1/2 weeks and i still have issues breathing. I feel real discouraging today because when i'm standing at the edge of the pool in between sets, everyone else just looks so comfortable? everyone else looks like they're barely trying... i'm like what the hell! I know it'll come in time but i just feel like i really sucked today.... also i was thinking, maybe my stroke is too slow? A guy at the pool said that i have a nice slow natural stroke? maybe if i sped it up a little, i would get air sooner? at the same time if i did that, i'm scared i will get tired sooner.... man am i a whiner today or what?

Champion

7163

Verona WI--Ironman Bike Country!

Subject: RE: GordoByrn -- Open For New Short Course Triathletes

Boom808 - 2009-04-27 7:28 AM

Boom,

Welcome

Question for you about your swimming -- how relaxed do you feel in the water when you swim?

g

Not relaxed at all.... I mean it has nothing with the water it's my breathing... i feel like i struggle with breathing. I try to bilateral breath all the time but i can only do it for maybe 75 meters... once the bilateral breathing stops... i'm usually tired? So inturn, i then feel uncomfortable because my breathing is labored. Breathing sucks so then i get tired and then i get uncomfortable then i'm not relaxed any more.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Boom

If you can do 75s with the b/l 3 then stick to 50s for your swimming (now). Build your endurance while relaxed -- you can do that with 50s, or even 25s. Be wary of using the rest to "go fast" -- key is to use the rest to stay relaxed. Once you learn to take relaxed breaths, you'll find it much easier to stay comfortable for 100 and beyond.

If you've ever played golf, or tennis, then swimming is a lot like that... a series of strokes linked over time. To get the most of your strokes, you need to build, then maintain that relaxation.

Check out this article for additional background...

http://www.endurancecorner.com/library/swimming/benchmarking_your_swimming

It gives you a road map on how to develop.

g

I am still having issues with this... i was wondering, could i just not be getting enough air? I keep telling myself that maybe because i was a smoker that my lungs are still messed up but i doubt it.... I can swim 50's comfortably and 75 kind of comfortably but am real nervous because my 2nd Tri is in 2 1/2 weeks and i still have issues breathing. I feel real discouraging today because when i'm standing at the edge of the pool in between sets, everyone else just looks so comfortable? everyone else looks like they're barely trying... i'm like what the hell! I know it'll come in time but i just feel like i really sucked today.... also i was thinking, maybe my stroke is too slow? A guy at the pool said that i have a nice slow natural stroke? maybe if i sped it up a little, i would get air sooner? at the same time if i did that, i'm scared i will get tired sooner.... man am i a whiner today or what?

Boom

I am not in a position to give you expert advice, but I used to think the fact I had asthma that maybe I could not get enough air in my lungs like a normal person. I too stood at the end breathing like a mad woman after 25 or 50 yards. For me, it was is about form and balance in the water. Once you have balance you are working less and therefore more comfortable and breathing is less of an issue. I still have to work on this everyday, but I have made progress. The two things that have worked for me is 1) finding a good coach for beginners who can watch you swim and 2) drill yourself to death based on that advice. I stopped doing drills for a while and realized I was losing momentum. Now I am back to them for about 25-30% of my workout.

Suzy

My Race Log

Extreme Veteran

566

Southern California

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Today:

1h 01m 31s

13.88 miles

13.54 Mi/hr

Avg HR: 139
Max HR: 173

Up to p-town, low 60s with high cloud cover, awesome.

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Expert

626

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

GordoByrn
Before moving to the "descending" workout phase, have you completed the race distance in a workout, and race distance without stopping phases?

Okey doke.

Done, 4/21, then 1K 4/25. It wasn't bad. 800 meters in 17:53 (may have miscounted laps but close enough)

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Expert

626

Subject: RE: GordoByrn -- Open For New Short Course Triathletes

Boom808 I am still having issues with this...

Boom - no particular advice, as I struggle with the swim too but over time it has gotten better. It is HARD to learn to swim as an adult. But you are doing it. You are.

B

PS G-man has some good suggestions on his site, they have really helped me.

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Boulder, CO

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

mtntord - 2009-04-22 11:42 AM This is some good discussion. I need to work hard to keep my heart rate down when running. I have been monitoring it better during my runs, but not keeping it down. I just need to slow down. Would you suggest walking to get my heart rate back down when it gets to high? I'm still having trouble getting to the pool and on the bike. Just takes more prep and planning. I know it is going to come back at me. I only have a couple more weeks in my current semester then I should be able to balance the training a lot better.

Walking/Hiking -- yes, both are excellent for laying the ground work for successful running development. I did years of both before I starting running consistently.

Run:Walk -- some ideas here:
http://www.endurancecorner.com/library/running/run_walk_mcgee

With your specific point, I suggest short walking breaks before you are 'too high' -- makes a big difference to your recovery/endurance. Also remember to walk with a purpose -- cadence is up and arms are in 'running' position. The walking is part of the training.

Hope this helps,
g

Extreme Veteran

680

Boulder, CO

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

cjhild - 2009-04-22 4:04 PM Alright, first run ever with a HRM. Gordo, please don't yell at me, j/k. This was quite an experience. I started off shooting for a 5:1 and my HR was sky high at the end of 5 min. So I started to walk to get it down, it seemed like it took forever to get it back down, was trying to keep it no more than 137 (did not do a good job at that). When I was barely jogging it spiked way up, seemed like I was walking way more than running. Based on this HR data, I cannot imagine what my HR was when I was running without it, I would go WAY faster pace than today, my HR must have been through the roof. I am afraid to see where my HR lands on the bike.

G- a few questions:

Based on the HR zones you have on your web site and have posted here (easy- 160, steady- 170, mod- 180), I am 33 yo, so I am trying to stay most of the time in easy (127) and steady (137)? I want to stay away from moderately-hard (147) for the most part right? I think I understand this from your posts in our group and in the Word doc you sent, I just want to be sure.

Why is my heart rate so high? Lack of fitness, going to hard, combination of both?

I am very surprised with how high my heart rate is, I was thinking it would be much lower. It is hot today (95 degrees) and it is my first run in the heat, how much would that contribute to my numbers here?

Attached a screen shot of my HR data from today (hopefully it is high enough quality for you to see). Thanks.

Why high? The simple answer is stress -- our HR rises when we are under stress (all types).

Heat is a form of stress so will elevate HR -- you'll need to moderate pace in hot temps.

So... my advice is use frequent walk breaks and keep things under 150 bpm -- you'll also have to walk most hills (I walk, it's OK to walk!).
g

Extreme Veteran

680

Boulder, CO

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

Ken in AZ - 2009-04-22 9:54 PM Justin

Are there any models better suited for tall inflexible guys? Also, if I go that route, I will probably get a Power Tap off the bat -- IF that's something we can use without a coach (i.e., how will I know what to do with the data from it)... SOrry, that may be a lot of info for one shot...

ken

Ken,

Power info - main thing to start is train "just the same" don't change anything. Learn the functions and gather data about what you are already doing. Resist the urge to do a ton of max effort testing.

Bike -- for you, a comfortable road bike with a set of clip on bars is your best starting point -- you can bump the saddle forward (and up) a touch to make things a big more comfortable on the bars. Speed comes from smart training and addressing your flexibility limiter. For folks with your profile, I'm not a big fan of tri-geometry. With your flexibility limiter you will have to shift a mile forward to get your chest pointing down -- at that stage you will get a lot of neck pain because your natural position will be looking straight down, not forward. You will also close off quite a bit of power because your tight hammies will not be relaxed. So the road/clip on option will likely be superior.

g

Extreme Veteran

680

Boulder, CO

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

cjhild - 2009-04-24 10:20 AM

BabsVa - 2009-04-22 4:22 PM

Eventually I got to the point where I would run at a faster pace with an HR in the 140s. It'll happen, it justs take a good aerobic base and time.

Reno8

I agree 100% on the aerobic base.

How long from when you guys FIRST started training did it take to get to a good aerobic base? I guess that is too complicated of a question to ask and try to apply to myself. I do not have any sort of aerobic base prior to this year. I started training in January and have been hitting between 5 and 6 days a week of either s/b/r or both since then. Not much before January. So I am just trying to get an idea of how long it will take me to build up a good base where my HR is not super high.

I think the heat played a bit of a role yesterday, today was a bit more controlled.

That depends on what you mean by good...
http://www.byrn.org/gtips/fast.htm
http://www.byrn.org/write/enough.htm
http://www.byrn.org/write/g_advent.htm

I'm not sure that you'll find things much different when you get to where you want to go. I went a lot farther than I ever dreamed possible -- learned a lot along the way. Those articles are ~8 years old -- I was smoking fast then (in an internet forum sense) but far from my potential.

Fun to look back and our predictions over time.
g

Extreme Veteran

680

Boulder, CO

Subject: RE: GordoByrn -- Open For New Short Course Triathletes

Boom808 - 2009-04-27 6:28 AM

Boom,

Welcome

Question for you about your swimming -- how relaxed do you feel in the water when you swim?

g

Not relaxed at all.... I mean it has nothing with the water it's my breathing... i feel like i struggle with breathing. I try to bilateral breath all the time but i can only do it for maybe 75 meters... once the bilateral breathing stops... i'm usually tired? So inturn, i then feel uncomfortable because my breathing is labored. Breathing sucks so then i get tired and then i get uncomfortable then i'm not relaxed any more.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Boom

If you can do 75s with the b/l 3 then stick to 50s for your swimming (now). Build your endurance while relaxed -- you can do that with 50s, or even 25s. Be wary of using the rest to "go fast" -- key is to use the rest to stay relaxed. Once you learn to take relaxed breaths, you'll find it much easier to stay comfortable for 100 and beyond.

If you've ever played golf, or tennis, then swimming is a lot like that... a series of strokes linked over time. To get the most of your strokes, you need to build, then maintain that relaxation.

Check out this article for additional background...

http://www.endurancecorner.com/library/swimming/benchmarking_your_swimming

It gives you a road map on how to develop.

g

I am still having issues with this... i was wondering, could i just not be getting enough air? I keep telling myself that maybe because i was a smoker that my lungs are still messed up but i doubt it.... I can swim 50's comfortably and 75 kind of comfortably but am real nervous because my 2nd Tri is in 2 1/2 weeks and i still have issues breathing. I feel real discouraging today because when i'm standing at the edge of the pool in between sets, everyone else just looks so comfortable? everyone else looks like they're barely trying... i'm like what the hell! I know it'll come in time but i just feel like i really sucked today.... also i was thinking, maybe my stroke is too slow? A guy at the pool said that i have a nice slow natural stroke? maybe if i sped it up a little, i would get air sooner? at the same time if i did that, i'm scared i will get tired sooner.... man am i a whiner today or what?

Good advice from Suzy.

I also recommend that you focus on what you can do. What I mean is... if you can swim 25s and 50s relaxed then do that. Become an expert at that. Then gradually extend your distance.

The other people that look relaxed have gone through this process -- say you watch me swim... you don't see the millions of meters that I've swum, you just see this guy swimming. We all start as beginners at some stage -- it's a fun time, you will see improvement if you stick with it.

g

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680

Boulder, CO

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

BabsVa - 2009-04-27 7:16 PM

GordoByrn
Before moving to the "descending" workout phase, have you completed the race distance in a workout, and race distance without stopping phases?

Okey doke.

Done, 4/21, then 1K 4/25. It wasn't bad. 800 meters in 17:53 (may have miscounted laps but close enough)

Justin wrote an article for our XTri column with a great tip for that swim progression. After you move through to a new level, make sure that you repeat it (at least once) before moving to the next level. In swimming, as you improve, you'll find that a lot of repetition is required before progressing.

Hope this helps!
g

Master

1675

Suwanee, Ga.

Subject: RE: GordoByrn -- Open For New Short Course Triathletes

Boom808 - 2009-04-27 8:28 AM

Not relaxed at all.... I mean it has nothing with the water it's my breathing... i feel like i struggle with breathing. I try to bilateral breath all the time but i can only do it for maybe 75 meters... once the bilateral breathing stops... i'm usually tired? So inturn, i then feel uncomfortable because my breathing is labored. Breathing sucks so then i get tired and then i get uncomfortable then i'm not relaxed any more.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Boom

I am still having issues with this... i was wondering, could i just not be getting enough air? I can swim 50's comfortably and 75 kind of comfortably but am real nervous because my 2nd Tri is in 2 1/2 weeks and i still have issues breathing. I feel real discouraging today because when i'm standing at the edge of the pool in between sets, everyone else just looks so comfortable? everyone else looks like they're barely trying... i'm like what the hell! I know it'll come in time but i just feel like i really sucked today.... also i was thinking, maybe my stroke is too slow? A guy at the pool said that i have a nice slow natural stroke? maybe if i sped it up a little, i would get air sooner? at the same time if i did that, i'm scared i will get tired sooner.... man am i a whiner today or what?

First of all....I am not a fan of Tri swimming. I do have a background as a lifeguard, I swam in college and am VERY comfy in the water...I just don't like swimming for distance. Having said that, I do know about some of the struggles you might be having.

""Breathing is labored,Can't get enough air, Can swim 50/75 but not much farther,"" .....you may not be exhaling completely in between strokes. If you don't blow out there is not as much room to take in fresh air and basicly you are in athletic hyper-ventalation. You have a residual amount of air in the lungs, tidal air, that you are tapping into and it will last about the time it takes to swim a slow 50 and if you are not breathing out and allowing this to be replinished then you are going somewhat into oxygen debt...hence...feeling tired.

"I have a nice slow stroke, maybe if I speed up a little, I am scared I will get tired sooner""..... You are right...you will get tired sooner and people pay good money for coaching to teach a slow smooth stroke...why mess with that.

""Man, an I a whiner today or what?"" well...yes you are

But there is not a single person on this board that has not had a frustrating situation with Tri's that they haven't felt like whining some. And when that frustration is with swimming...well someone on BT has something for their signature line about being able to "walk during the run...being able to sit down and take it easy on the bike but the bottom of a lake is not a real good option for a resting place.

I had a race last Sept. in Wilmington N.C. ( Intercoatal Waterway Salt Water Swim) that I experienced cramps in both legs at the start of a 1500 yd. swim. I went kayak to kayak (about 150 yds apart) for the entire distance holding on to each for a minute or 10 (

) and made my way through to the dock. That is as close as I have ever come to a panic attack so I can appreciate your concern.

Just my $ .02.

Steve

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Veteran

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Northern Virginia

Subject: RE: GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring

This group is good because it encourages and reminds me to fit in my workouts. Even if they are short I want to log something as much as possible.

Last night did my second swim of the month. Reminded myself to keep it slow. Swam for about 40 minutes including warm up/cool down. Going to ask for a lap counter for my b-day because I can't seem to keep track of a 100, let alone count for an entire workout.

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GordoByrn's Group Full for the Spring (Page 7)

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