Jim Kelley's (Birkierunner) General and Long Course Group (OPEN) (Page 7)

Related to what I just posted, after workouts longer than 60-90 minutes (depending on how I feel and how soon my next workout is), I do a smoothie: OJ and maybe chocolate milk or chocolate almond milk, a scoop (20g) of pure whey isolate, a banana, and some frozen berries. In really high volume periods and after the longest workouts, I'll add some maltodextrine or straight dextrose to that. If it's hot, I add some salt and nu salt. Tastes great. There is a great table on page 60 of Paleo Diet for Athletes that specifies how much of what should go into your recovery drinks based on your weight. I can send a photo of it if you want.

I determine CSS for my athletes by having them do a 500 and 1000 yd test.  These tests can't be "all out" because you would never finish them.  The goal is to give the effort that will allow you to finish knowing that you couldn't have given more at the end.  It does take some experience to learn how to do these tests properly because most first timers go out way too fast and then its not a reliable test.   So, don't be afraid of a TT

Mimi, time for you to register for IM CDA!   I just registered yesterday because my hopes of getting agreement on the homefront on going to IMMT for a 4th year in a row were fading and I didn't want to take a chance on CDA filling up as my alternate.

I usually have at least a day in between the 2 tests and then calculate the CSS.  We use the current CSS to set up pace categories (I don't want to call them zones) of increasing percentages of CSS that we use for different workouts or sets within a workout.

Totally wanted to this year...but, I am a poor girl and made a decision to race a non-IM brand race for a LOT LESS the cost!  Entry fee of $250 and only 3 hour drive from home/train on the course.  I hope they keep that race - I want to do it! I have family there so it would be a hoot :D 

I will live vicariously through you, Jim! 

One of the first things I would do is see if there is a local coach that you can ask/pay to have them look at your stroke.  There may be some low hanging fruit that you can address regarding your stroke that will make you a faster swimmer.

bump

Sorry for the delay in responding, but its a complicated issue and I didn't want to give a superficial response.  The first thing we should touch on is the myth of "junk miles".  Some will say that unless your workout has a specific objective, with specific duration and intensity, or are done at the no man's zone 3, blah blah blah that the miles are junk miles.  That's just plain silly.  All training is beneficial, but some types of training are much more beneficial than others.  For time-limited athletes that becomes very important.  A good table to look at is HERE.  It outlines the various physiological adaptations that occur along the spectrum of training zone intensities.  However, view this with a grain of salt.  Some people think that training adaptation x can only be developed at training zone Y.  In reality, adaptations occur at all training zones but the type and magnitude of the adaptions will vary depending on training zones.  And to take it further, most adaptions are optimized at training zones GREATER than what some people like to think of as "base"...zone 1 and 2.  That is great news for the time-limited athlete.  Zones 1 and 2 have their place in training....but time-limited athletes should not have their training hours dominated by zones 1 and 2.  That is a path to no improvement.  You must impart a stress (and recovery) to the body to foster adaptation and thus improvement.  Shorter workouts at higher intensities can fit nicely into the time-limited athlete's schedule and will, when combined with the appropriate mix of longer, lower intensity workouts, prepare the athlete better for an IM event.  How those are all balanced depends on the athlete's strengths and weaknesses.

So, I don't approach training with the thought of how to optimize my fat or CHO utilization.  Those are by-products of training.  Training should be geared towards improving one's Critical Power on the bike, Critical Velocity on the run, and Critical Swim Speed.  These are improved at training intensities that are higher than what we will use on Ironman race day.  The key to Ironman racing is not to be able to go fast, its to be able to slow down the least.  By improving your CSS you can hop on the bike less fatigued...by improving your CP you will be able to execute the proper pace and come off the bike less fatigued and be able to put on your running shoes and be able to slow down the least.. especially the last 6-8 miles of the run.  Obviously, you have to have a race plan that takes into account your fitness level and then execute well during the race to accomplish this.

With regard to training and race nutrition, it is a very individual thing.  You can conduct sweat tests to determine your fluid needs for the race and practice that during your long training rides.  Body weight can be used to determine CHO requirements for the race.  Some handle solids better than others so you have to experiment with what food types satisfy your needs.  You definitely don't want to consume too many calories or else you will experience GI distress and possible stomach shutdown.  Sounds like you have a race nutrition plan that works for you.   In training you want to be sure to replenish your glycogen supplies within the one hour post workout window when absorption potential is highest.  Smoothies are a great way to accomplish that right after a workout and be sure to include a certain amount of protein with it.  Your description of a smoothie earlier is a lot like mine....one scoop of whey protein, OJ, couple tablespoons of yogurt, strawberries and blueberries.  Personally, I would rely more on portion control for weight loss and for me, once I cut down on the ice cream and Cheezits I can drop weigh pretty quickly without resorting to fasted workouts. 

Originally posted by Snaaijer Thanks for the suggestion Jim, although I'm not so sure I like your alternative any better than the 200/400 combo Do you prefer longer distances to tease out the sprint element of the shorter distances? Unfortunately (ha!) I didn't read your message until after my session, which, I must admit, was a humble lesson in swimming speed and pacing. My first problem is I swim too fast during warmup. In Dutch there's a saying called "je kruit verschieten" which basically means that you should keep your powder dry, and I rarely do this in a warmup... Then I figured that, since I did 1600m worth of 200s at 1:40, for sure I could do 10x100 at 1:30 right? Well the first two were close but I already knew I was in trouble. With considerably more rest, I struggled to hold 1:40 for the last couple of 100s. So there's that.... Maybe I was a little more fatigued from the running intervals than I thought, but I'm thinking a more reasonable repeat for 100s is probably closer to 1:36ish maybe. Not sure what a normal "loss" of speed from 100 to 200 is

Theoretically, any combo will work.  I tend to use the 500/1000 combo because I work with IM athletes primarily.  If one is racing only short course then shorter combos would be appropriate.  The shorter combos are also easier mentally.   The only thing is for IM athletes, if the distances are very short and the athlete is in very good shape you might not get the best measure of regression rate that a longer test might give you.  With regard to what a "normal loss" of speed from 100 to 200 it is hard to say because it is unique to the individual.  You use the percent difference to get insight to the athletes strength/weakness.

Thanks, Jim, I really appreciate this. It does sound like we disagree a bit about how far you can go on just aerobic training, but I think I will benefit from some higher intensity work this season. (One note: I use Friel's zones, which means my zone 2 includes the bottom half of Coggan's zone 3). What I'm left wondering about now is the relative mix of zone 3 vs. zone 4 and bike vs. run intensity and how the intensity builds over the season. I'll go back to TTB and Going Long and probably come back with another question after I've drafted some changes to the plan. Going Long has an eight week stretch of ME bike workouts for the early season, I suppose I'll start by adding those to midweek rides.

In the meantime, today I've got a fun ride up one of the higher peaks around the Bay Area, and then the first recovery/testing week of the season. Hope you're all getting some fun training in this weekend.

What is everyone up to this weekend?  I got in a nice 60 mile ride along A1A on Saturday, 9 miler on the recovered trash heap on Sat. and thinking a nice swim, gym and maybe yoga with the spawn today.  I have a few months of unfocused training/ base building, before I kick into IM training

As a side note...did you make up the list of mentees, Jim?  So I can send hellos and inspires and such?