Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 70)

There are espresso gels which are fairly bitter.  Just be aware of caffeine content.  Also some people like the margarita flavor Clif shot bloks.  They are more of a salty flavor.

I personally don't like either of those, but I thought I'd mention them

Along with what's mentioned, I've used meat sticks that I cut in 1 inch pieces.  It gives me some protien, fat, and sodium.  It's also nice to have something other than sweet/sugar.   A couple each hour is a nice variation.

I'm the same way.  After a while I'm all "sweet-ed" out. 

On a century ride 2 weeks ago they had animal crackers (generic brand) at one of the sag stations.  I snagged them as I was sick of gatorade and gels.  They were slightly sweet but much less so than the stuff had I been consuming.  They hit the spot perfectly.  And they were pretty easy to digest as well.

Another one is Pringles.  They are so think they basically melt in your mouth.   Plus they have salt.  They sell little plastic 20odd chip containers that would be perfect for your special needs bag.

Few random thoughts:

1) PB perforom is one of the less sweet drinks imho.  You also have the option of going infinit and dialing back the flavor big time (especially if you are making a concentrated bottle).

2) whether you should refuel on the swim is in part dependent on whether you are closer to a 1 hour swimmer or a 2 hour swimmer.  You also need to experiment with whether you can tolerate eating while being horizontal in the water... many people cannot.  But the bottom line is that for most of us we do start the bike in a glycogen-depleted state (tank not completely full).

3) Although you can't double up to make up lost calories, you can recover from a bonk more easily than you can recover from a GI shutdown, imho.  Lots of IMers have ended up empty and had to walk a couple miles of their marathon... and put some calories into their bodies and picked back up and run it home for the last few miles.  Lots of IMers have also been in the porti potty at mile 4 of the run, and every 2 miles for the rest of the race.  Once your system shuts down it does not want to restart, and you'll be in a worse postion since instead of getting slightly less calories than you could have handled, you'll essentially be getting NO calories.

4) Don't freak out over nutrition - but be aware of just how important it is to the success of your day.  I believe it's already been said here the nutrtion is the 4th discipline in long course triathlon.  While you can make it as complicated as you want (*guilty*), you can also put together a very simple nutrition plan (based on what people who complicate it have learned), practice it a few times, and have good confidence going into race day.

on race day I do a snickers bar at mile 80ish of the bike.  It never sounds good but it has bounced me back from a funk 2 years in a row.  I also do a payday bar right out of T2. The salty peanuts are a delicious change of pace.  A friend of mine froze a snickers bar and put it in SN for Kona.  It was still frozen when he got to it and he said it was the greatest thing he had ever eaten during a race.

I love PayDay bars but I'd be concerned about the peanuts.  Not exactly an easy thing to digest.  May have to give it a try.

Last year I started the bike with one 750cal bottle of Spiz that I sipped on the whole ride (I marked the 1/3 points on the bottle to help gauge my drinking rate).  I also ate 200 cals of clif shot blocks at miles 30, 60, and 90.  This worked out to just under 250 cals/hr.  The only think I had to grab at the aid stations was water.

I'm going in with a very similar plan this year but I'm thinking of dropping the bottle to around 650 cals, this will work out closer to 220 cals/hr.

My biggest mistake last year was not taking in enough salt due to the heat.  I had some real bad leg cramping during the run.  If conditions are similar this year I am going to pack more salt tabs on the bike and run.  Also have an extra stash in my SN bags.

Here is an explanation of the difference between Powerbar Endurance Powder (readily available at GNC and other places) and Powerbar/Ironman Perform "ready to drink" bottles (served on course) from what I consider to be the most trusted source on sports nutrition out there.  According to Brian, the products are interchangeable.

I know that gatorade powder and store bought bottles did not have the same sugar composition (at least for a while the bottles used HFCS), but it appears Powerbar has been consistent.

Just as an aside, Brian has also been the "nutritional coach" to several pro athletes -- they jointly write nutrition/race reports after good performances.  Here are a few:

- Jordan Rapp
- Ian Mikelson

So you'll see for both guys that live in the 9ish hour range, they are taking in about 400 caloreis per hour on bike and run.  My personal experience (about 1.5 hours slower) is that that's just about right for the bike, and a little too much for the run.

I think it was Gatorade G2 that had the HFCS but don't quote me on that.

I have a new appreciation for how few calories we can take in based on two things. First, after the dramatic cookie-tossing (er, Infinit-tossing) at mile 4 of the CDA marathon, I did the entire rest of the marathon on nothing but coke. I walked until my tummy settled down, and I sucked on ice chips. After tummy was better I was able to run the rest of the way, walked aid stations, and just drank coke to quench my thirst. I gave my two packs of Gu Chomps to my kiddos when I saw them around mile 14 -- made their day, ha!! I never, in a million years, would have thought that I could complete a marathon, after the swim and bike, no less, on nothing but coke (and not a whole lot of it).

The second thing that made me appreciate caloric intake was this winter when I was training for a marathon using an online coach. He operated under the philosphy of training your body to use its fat stores so take in as few calories as possible on long runs. I did 20+ mile runs on less than 100 calories numerous times. Again, I never in a million years would have thought that possible, but my body adjusted and I wasn't craving calories during those runs.

I have come to the conclusion that I would rather be slightly under-calorized (nice word, huh?!) than over-calorized. I have never bonked from a lack of calories. I do get hungry on rides, not so much on runs.

Thanks, Josh, for the PB Perform links for powder vs. off-the-shelf. I want to practice with PB Perform a few times because really, if I could live off the course that would be really cool. I don't like flavor at all (my Infinit has barely any flavor), so it might not work for me (thought I will try dilluting, too).

Another tip for getting away from sweet... CarboPro is supposedly tasteless. It's not, it is slightly sweet, but it's not horrible. Sometimes I use that for rides and plop in 1/2 of a citrus-flavored nuun in the bottle -- a tiny bit of flavor but nothing overwhelming.

I do head straight for salty foods after long workouts. I'm usually ready for my dessert later that night, but crackers or a melted cheese sandwich really hit the spot for me after a hot shower!!

I thought this was funny because I had the opposite idea when I first started distance running.  I ran my whole first marathon on nothing but water.  Did all the training with nothing but water.  The thought never occurred to me that consuming calories was something I should do because I was never hungry while running.  Of course, that's not ideal either, but it IS possible to consume NO calories and still finish up to 4 hours or so of running.

I have a tendency to consume too few calories due to unpreparedness, forgetfullness, and other stupid factors.  Last year, when I did a 90 mile ride with a big group I brought only a Clif Bar and two GU packs with me.  I consumed all of them at some point in the ride, but that only amounted to 450 calories.  For reasons that still annoy me (too many stops,etc.) that ride took 8 hours, and by the last 20 miles I'm sure I was bonking due to lack of blood sugar.  I was dizzy, slow as heck, having trouble riding in a straight line, and dreaming of stopping for a cheeseburger for over an hour.   I definitely don't want to go down that road again.

Thanks for all the suggestions for non-sweet things to munch on.  I really like Fig Newtons (yeah, they're sweet, but not syrup sweet), and salty crackers/chips are a good idea as well.  My Bento box I ordered showed up yesterday, so I'll have anther place to store all these goodies besides my jersey pockets now  

  I really like Fig Newtons (yeah, they're sweet, but not syrup sweet)

My very humble .02 on nutrition is try it out in training.  If I ate 200 calories/hr on the bike I would die on the run.  personal experience has proven this to me.  Fig newtons must really work in some cases.  The 2 stud horses in our tri group (the son is an animal - on a pro team with one of the tri shops) eat nothing but fig newtons on halfs on the bike. 

There are multiple variables that come into play here.

1. Fit: a good bike fit should have you in a powerful and aerodynamic position.  While it is true that the fastest position is not always the most powerful (aero gains compensate for loss of power) or the most aerodynamic (power gains compensate for aerodynamic inefficiency)... I think it is possible to be well fit to a bike and be very aero without much if any loss of power.  I don't think any of the hills at CdA are so extreme that a well fit TT position is not ideal.

2. Pacing: even if you can generate more power by sitting up, you would be making a common mistake during the IM if you hammer up the hills.  My advice for everyone is that you drop into the appropriate gear and spin up the climbs at an effort/cadence that is the same as what you would ride on the flats... even if it means your speed drops BIG TIME.  If you are getting passed on the climbs -- especially on lap one -- that is a good thing.  Those people that passed you fall into two categories... either they are more fit and there's nothing you can do about it, or they are racing stupid and blowing their wad and you'll get them back later in the bike or on the run.

3. Efficiency:  If I was going to break my advice about even effort on the entire ride, I would do it just before starting a climb (on the downhill or flat leading up to the climb).  That's just good riding technique (carry some momentum into a climb... particularly the short/steep ones that are frequent on the CdA course, and you'll be shocked how much easier the climb will go).  Of course I'll have to call for balance here (don't sprint, but feel free to try to hit them with some speed).  Particularly if you have a downhill leading immediately (or soon) into an uphill, you should try to carry that momentum into the climb if possible.  It won't take that much extra energy to speed up on the downhill/flat, and it will make your climb much easier.  And it's a much more efficient way to attack a climb than to hit it with little momentum and then hammer up.

FOR IM RACING, then, my answer is that if you can stay in aero the entire time and ride at the same effort for the entire 112, you'll have a faster overall finish time than if you attack any portion of the ride.  It's okay to cheat a little on the lead up to the shorter climbs, but don't go crazy.  Since there are not a lot of aero gains as your pace drops on a climb, I have no problem with sitting up to give yourself a break from the aero position (let's say arbitrarily below 10mph)... but maintain your effort/cadence when you do so.

FOR TRAINING, I definitely think there is a place for sitting up (and even getting out of the saddle) and hammering up hills.  Within reason, you really can't do it enough (though I'd also encourage you to do it in aero often as well).

Just some food for thought.

These types of events are more mental than anything.   Have you started prepping for the wall…self doubt…pain train…. Mile ### when you’re all alone and your body tells you it should stop, what are you going to say to yourself?  Figure out what you’re going to use to motivate yourself.   That’s when you test your METL if you have prepared for this wall it will be worth more than any amount of nutrition you take, bike fit, aero helmet, tires you get.  We all have it in us; it’s just if you want to bring it out on race day. 

Just something to think about, happy training.

For sure. My matra last year was FORWARD PROGRESS. When things got grim, I just told myself to keep moving forward. It worked for me. More than anything, my first IM was about finishing (really, aren't they all??!!), and forward progress was the one thing that was gonna get me there.

The jury is still out on cramping, though most of the recent literature seems to indicate that cramping during racing is more likely about fitness than nutrition.  See some relevant BT forum discussion (and particularly the two links to studies that were posted) here.

I'm not saying don't include electrolyte replacement in your nutritional plan (you should)... I'm just cautioning against a prevalent "I got cramps so I'll use more salt next time" response.  Putting too much salt can cause things to get way out of balance... on example would be how I started a salt binge on the run of my first 70.3 after I cramped and on the finish line pic I am visibly bloated all over... and I still suffered through cramps for the whole run.

And in general I agree with you that the hotter and more humid it is, the more electrolytes you are likely to lose via sweat (but just how much is highly individual), and the more you should try to replace them.  As with the conversation on calories, experimentation during training to assess how much you need in various condtions is key.

I have heard several tri coaches that I respect say, “Truly fit athletes do not cramp”.  However, let’s face reality.  At 6-foot and 200+ pounds I’m not “truly fit”.  Nor do I really intend to give up ice cream, beer, and fatty foods long enough to reach the point of being “truly fit” just for a race.  (I wonder if you can deep fry ice cream with a beer batter?)

The price I pay for this generally lazy attitude towards training and daily nutrition is that I sometimes get massive leg cramps during the run.  I’ve found that these cramps will go away very quickly by popping a salt tab.  After a mile or so they start to come back, I pop another salt tab and they stay away for another mile or so.  Last year I ran out of salt and had to walk to hold off the cramps.  Mentally I wanted to run but physically I just could not do it.

I agree that salt tabs are not a magic pill for everyone (but they work for me) and they do have a potential big downside.  If you take too many there is a chance that you will just end up trading leg cramps for a shut down GI system.  However, given the choice between cramping on the side of the road and not moving forward, or taking some salt and risking a GI shutdown at some point in the future, I know which one of these options I would take.

In the spirit of full disclosure, whenever I have had to resort to massive salt to hold off the leg cramps my GI system has taken a hit.  But generally this has been after the finish line.  A shut down GI system during the race sucks but after the race it is even worse because I can not stomach beer or ice cream.  But that's just the price I have to pay to play. 

Those climbs are also a good time to snack, stretch, reach for a bottle, whatever -- as opposed to doing those things when you're rolling fast.

Tell those coaches to shove it (nicely of course).

Fit athletes can cramp -- when they exceed their fitness by pushing too hard it's not uncommon.  Just watch the IM world championships in Kona from any number of years -- great shots of Macca or Stadler with hamstring cramps stopping them in their tracks... and they were fit enough to win it more than once on adjacent years.  They just went a little too hard -- took a risk and paid the price -- which is really the only way to win at that level.  But on those cramp years, they paid the price and lost.  But you can't claim they weren't "truly fit"

My point, ultimately, is to feel free to supplement with salt stick or the like... but also to back off on the pace just a hair.  It's usually faster to run a little slower and not cramp (maintain that steady slower pace) than it is to run faster and then get stopped in your tracks with cramps (average out to a slower overall time).

My response to those coaches would be that wisely paced athletes don't cramp, regardless of their relative fitness.

It's been a few years since I heard this said.  There may have been a pacing component tied in with that quote.