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2010-06-15 12:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Hi everyone - I'm finally back in the groove after a long and busy business trip last week. Ended up missing my key workout this past weekend - tried to get it in on Sunday but wasn't feeling right and decided that it was probably more prudent to rest and get back into the swing of things this week.

I'm interested in people's opinions of the taper, since I'll be ready to taper for Vineman here in another 3 weeks or so. Since most of my races have been on the short side prior to this I'm used to only tapering for a few days. I'm curious to know how long most of you usually take for taper for a HIM.


2010-06-15 1:27 PM
in reply to: #2921841

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
furiousferret -

First off, wasn't Lake Champlain where Benedict Arnold held held the British off (he was actually a great leader, not so much on the loyalty side though) during the Revolution?  

QUOTE]

haha great comment!!
2010-06-15 4:40 PM
in reply to: #2769226

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Yesterday was the 1st day of my new 1/2 IM plan. I had a 40 min run and 40 min swim. Everything went fine. Tonight is a hour bike and 30 min run. I'm going to stick to the plan for about the 1st month and see how it goes. I would like to change my rest days off the weekends because that's when I have the most time to train. I would also like to increase my weekend rides to between 2-2 1/2 hours instead of the 1 1/2 hrs that they have.

In my short tri career I have found that the taper time makes me sluggish come race day. I don't know exactly what I'll do for my Oly coming up but I don't think I'll taper as much. I kind of get too relaxed and have a hard time getting amped back up on race day. I would also like to figure a way to get a good nights sleep before a race. I'm usually wrecked tired on race day.
2010-06-15 5:54 PM
in reply to: #2923850

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
phxphotog - 2010-06-15 3:40 PM
I would also like to figure a way to get a good nights sleep before a race. I'm usually wrecked tired on race day.


I still haven't perfected the night before sleep thing, but I try to get 10-11hours 2 nights before when I can still sleep relatively easier, then the night before I aim for 7-8 hours and lay in bed telling myself that just laying there with my eyes closed is 80% as good as actually sleeping.  No idea if that's true, but it sounds good in my head and seems to work to help me relax and eventually fall asleep. 
2010-06-15 5:59 PM
in reply to: #2769226

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Fred... think we could get Bryan to stop in again and tell us what kind of tapering philosophy he follows? (not that we don't love you Fred... but it is one of those things that people can react differently to with performance).

Actually... Fred, I'd like to know what kind of taper aimed to do for this past weekend, how you think it effected you on race day, and any personal critiques of how your plan vs actual came out. 
2010-06-15 7:18 PM
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2010-06-15 7:22 PM
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2010-06-16 12:20 AM
in reply to: #2924076

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
PennState - 2010-06-15 6:18 PM
zionvier - 2010-06-15 6:59 PM Fred... think we could get Bryan to stop in again and tell us what kind of tapering philosophy he follows? (not that we don't love you Fred... but it is one of those things that people can react differently to with performance).

Actually... Fred, I'd like to know what kind of taper aimed to do for this past weekend, how you think it effected you on race day, and any personal critiques of how your plan vs actual came out. 
My taper was pretty much how I planned it. I reduced volume and increased intensity. I did do a 15 mile run the Sunday before the race which clearly is not part of a taper, but was part of my Ironman build up. Taper was also short as it started on the Monday before the race. Only mistake was running on a treadmill which game me a sore shin for a few days. Overall Pete I would encourage you to look carefully at my logs as what I did worked quite nicely for me. Will it work for you? I don't know. Also I encourage you to pm Bryan or other fast or experienced triathletes. Bryan has similar ideas on tapering buy probably not exactly the same. Hope that helps.


Thanks Fred.  I actually wanted to hear you comments before I investigated your logs.  You had what appears from the outside a great race, I assume you think the same.  But wanted to hear your reflective thoughts first.  That way if there was something you thought was unique (like the 15 miler) I'd pay more attention to it.  I'll investigate now  I think you can't just look at a taper, but also look at the month or two leading up to it in order to get a good sense on why something worked or why something didn't.

 
2010-06-16 4:45 AM
in reply to: #2922442

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

PennState - 2010-06-15 10:17 AM Taper thoughts: 1. Many plans call for a 2 or even 3 week taper. I personally disagree with this. 2. Tapering is designed to allow you to have a peak performance for your ability level at your key race. 3. What I do is simple. I have my largest volume weeks 4 and 6 weeks out from my ironman (next week is one). These are roughly 20+ hour training weeks. Most weeks I am in the 10-12 hour range with sometimes less and sometimes more (15h). 4. Once my big week 4 weeks out is done I return to normal training (10-12 hours per week, maybe more like 15 max) with the week after the 20+ hour week decidely less to allow normal cyclic recovery. It's also why I do huge weeks at 4, 6 and not consecutively, to allow recovery. 5. My taper is ONLY the last week where I ride and run and swim, but with less volume. I will do shorter intensity rides and intensity swims. 6. I do pretty much nothing the day before the race except a brief ride to check out the bike's mechanics. I personally view most plans as having too much of a taper where athletes actually DETRAIN too much to get any benefit from the taper. Please discuss.

My thoughts on the taper is very close to yours Fred.  A couple of points I will make from my own experience.  I think a lot of age groupers (myself included in the past) over do the taper due to the mental fatigue of weeks of training and trying to train and fit in life's other obstacles.  Unfortunately many of these people have only been hitting 80 - 90 % of the planned training and hit the same percentage of the scheduled taper which in my thoughts is probably starting to far away from the goal race. 

Something else I have read recently on tapering, I think it was in Triathlete Magazine, was that the ability to s/b/r long is lost faster than the ability to s/b/r fast.  In other words endurance is lost faster than speed.  I experienced this in my last marathon training nursing a nagging hamstring issue, so it made some sense to me.  Now this doesn't mean that a week before your A race you should do your longest run of the training plan, but it does mean that you don't drop to 5 mile long runs 3 weeks out if you are training for a marathon or Ironman.  A taper should allow for more opportunity to rest, overall volume should be reduced, but training doesn't end. 

 

2010-06-16 8:04 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
kenj - 2010-06-16 5:45 AM

Something else I have read recently on tapering, I think it was in Triathlete Magazine, was that the ability to s/b/r long is lost faster than the ability to s/b/r fast.  In other words endurance is lost faster than speed.   



Funny, I just heard teh opposite from a physical therapist yesterday...and I think it's why swimmers need to work on their sprinting with lots of recovery (granted... a "long" swim race, like the 1,000 or 1650 is done in a lot less time than even an entire sprint distance tri-so that may be the reason for the difference in training philosophy)... but I think I"ll need to get out a few short boughts of powerful swim and biking sets-nothing crazy, but something to wake up the fast twitch fibers... I'm pretty confident in my slow twitchers.
2010-06-16 1:25 PM
in reply to: #2769226

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
BTW, would anyone mind sharing their tri club's website with me? I'm the pres of our local tri and I'd like to see what other clubs are doing. Thanks!

This is us: www.broomecountytriathlonclub.com


2010-06-16 1:54 PM
in reply to: #2925930

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
WittyCityGirl - 2010-06-16 12:25 PM BTW, would anyone mind sharing their tri club's website with me? I'm the pres of our local tri and I'd like to see what other clubs are doing. Thanks!

This is us: www.broomecountytriathlonclub.com


I don't belong to any of them, but we have a ton here in CO... here's a list:

http://www.coloradotriathlete.com/clubs.htm

I've been advised by a guy who works for Carmichael that Riptide is a good club in Golden, but their web address is wrong on that page, so here's theres:

http://riptidemultisports.com/


 eta: Riptide has both amateur and elites, which I think is what helps make them good since the amateurs get to learn from the elites.


Edited by zionvier 2010-06-16 1:56 PM
2010-06-16 2:55 PM
in reply to: #2769226

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
That's a pretty small club for a whole county!  I guess you are a long ways from Scranton...

I was born and raised in California, and although I spent a summer in PA/MD, I still think everything on the East Coast is 15 minutes away from NYC...

You guys look like a bunch of Brazilian soccer fans!  (I like the color)

Anyway here's the site...

http://www.redlandstriclub.com/ <-- Newer local club, will probably join when I get back.

http://www.inlandinferno.com/  <-- My old club, practices were too far away (30 miles)
2010-06-16 3:00 PM
in reply to: #2769226

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
some great discussion on tapering here! i am really liking it when i can read it. busy as heck here with work...and then training with my final big push for LP. Running on fumes here
2010-06-16 4:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Here's the link to my tri club:

www.ggtc.org
2010-06-16 7:56 PM
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2010-06-16 8:12 PM
in reply to: #2926855

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
PennState - 2010-06-16 5:56 PM No tri club for me. I do train with a good group of guys in town on a semi-consistent basis. For today's training, I got a 50 mile ride in. Anyone else?


Roughly 2k swim this morning.  First time in an Olympic pool, first time swimming with a masters group.  I didn't actually swim with them just got put off to the side and did some of the drills the coach told me to.  I'm getting a lot of good information to improve my stroke.

I'll probably swim and run tonight since we were kept late =\
 
2010-06-16 9:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

PennState - 2010-06-16 7:56 PM No tri club for me. I do train with a good group of guys in town on a semi-consistent basis. For today's training, I got a 50 mile ride in. Anyone else?

 

Traveling for work, got a early morning swim in and a run in this evening.  Looking to get a bike ride in tomorrow.

2010-06-16 9:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
PennState - 2010-06-16 5:56 PM No tri club for me. I do train with a good group of guys in town on a semi-consistent basis. For today's training, I got a 50 mile ride in. Anyone else?


Just got back from a quick 4 mile trail run on a local trail overlooking the Golden Gate Bridge. Started off great but after a mile I got horrible stomach cramps. Suffered through the rest of the run and just glad it is over now! That's what I get for having a Diet Coke at 3pm. Undecided
2010-06-17 12:21 AM
in reply to: #2769226

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
Just had a 30 min swim to do today. Did a mix of freestyle and pull buoy. I'm still weaning myself off the pull buoy. Today I swam more without than with. Did some speed laps with recovery.

Nice ride tonight Fred.
2010-06-17 1:56 AM
in reply to: #2926874

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
furiousferret - 2010-06-16 7:12 PM
PennState - 2010-06-16 5:56 PM No tri club for me. I do train with a good group of guys in town on a semi-consistent basis. For today's training, I got a 50 mile ride in. Anyone else?


Roughly 2k swim this morning.  First time in an Olympic pool, first time swimming with a masters group.  I didn't actually swim with them just got put off to the side and did some of the drills the coach told me to.  I'm getting a lot of good information to improve my stroke.

I'll probably swim and run tonight since we were kept late =\
 


What did you think about the masters group?  There is one a mile from my house that meets weekly, but I haven't ever gone.  I've always got the impression they were focused on pure swimming and not swimming for triathlon.  I've always viewed masters classes as trying to make you faster, where I'm looking to get better at swimming in order to conserve energy.  Do you think the masters groups are something an IMer should do? 


2010-06-17 2:01 AM
in reply to: #2926966

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
calimavs - 2010-06-16 8:12 PM
PennState - 2010-06-16 5:56 PM No tri club for me. I do train with a good group of guys in town on a semi-consistent basis. For today's training, I got a 50 mile ride in. Anyone else?


Just got back from a quick 4 mile trail run on a local trail overlooking the Golden Gate Bridge. Started off great but after a mile I got horrible stomach cramps. Suffered through the rest of the run and just glad it is over now! That's what I get for having a Diet Coke at 3pm. Undecided


Personally, I try to avoid everything with HFCS (High Fructose Corn Syrup).  Diet or normal soda... it's all the same in my mind.  Sometimes it's difficult to find an alternative though if you're out with friends/co-workers.  I enjoy some kind of flavor with my food, so I'd be curious what others choose as their beverage when dining out.  I know it's not good... but I default toward Guinness... I'd like to find something else with flavor that isn't in the soda realm or other high suger (lemonade) kind of area.  What do others choose to drink when you are out at a restaurant?  
2010-06-17 4:44 AM
in reply to: #2927135

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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!

zionvier - 2010-06-17 2:56 AM
furiousferret - 2010-06-16 7:12 PM
PennState - 2010-06-16 5:56 PM No tri club for me. I do train with a good group of guys in town on a semi-consistent basis. For today's training, I got a 50 mile ride in. Anyone else?


Roughly 2k swim this morning.  First time in an Olympic pool, first time swimming with a masters group.  I didn't actually swim with them just got put off to the side and did some of the drills the coach told me to.  I'm getting a lot of good information to improve my stroke.

I'll probably swim and run tonight since we were kept late =\
 


What did you think about the masters group?  There is one a mile from my house that meets weekly, but I haven't ever gone.  I've always got the impression they were focused on pure swimming and not swimming for triathlon.  I've always viewed masters classes as trying to make you faster, where I'm looking to get better at swimming in order to conserve energy.  Do you think the masters groups are something an IMer should do? 

The masters group I swim with, when I can, is mostly swimmers that also do tri's.  From reading some of the swimming threads here on BT, it would appear that each group is different, so I would talk to the coach or attend once and see.   My group does a lot of different workouts, some longer sets, some short sprints.  When I was training for my last IM, I did masters twice a week and swam on my own for the endurance sets.  I'm not sure that fast swimming and efficient swimming are neccesarily different goals.

2010-06-17 5:46 AM
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Subject: RE: Penn State's mentor group - CLOSED!
If a masters group is aimed at making you faster, they are making you a more efficient swimmer.  MOST of the speed gains we make in the pool are a function of form/technique improvements, not fitness improvments.  So if you become faster at short stuff, that should translate into easier long stuff if you slow down.

IMHO you are doing yourself a huge disservice if you aren't doing lots of "speedwork" in the pool.  For me, that's where the feel for the water increases and where you can't get away with lazy technique.  Drills + sets of sprints = a good portion of my swimming.  I aim for once per week to swim a long continuous set... but that's it.

Then again, I suck at swimming, so take with a grain of salt.
2010-06-17 6:15 AM
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