Experior and Slornow's Spring/Summer Mentor Group-CLOSED (Page 78)

I guess I am a sketchy rider. :-) 

So what are your reasons to shave your legs?  It seems like everybody has their own reason why. What are yours?

Hey all, 

Pretty interesting few discussions the last week or so...seems like I haven't been on in a long time. 

I actually just got done with an "emergency" bike fit session. Have really been hitting my head against the wall trying to get past the 3-4 hour mark without wanting to throw my bike in the ocean. Ended up raising my seat, and widening my arms pads out and up a bit. Loosing some 'aero' properties, but honestly I am not too aero if I am sitting upright because I can't take it. Definitely a sub-optimal time frame since I race Augusta 70.3 in just over a week (the 30th), but I am approaching this race this time around as a catered training day to get some race specific work done (nutrition especially) leading into the final weeks of IMFL. YIKES! Where did the time go!

I will add to the legs shaven thing...Honestly, I started shaving them leading into my first race. I wanted to look the part haha. In all honesty, I probably started doing it in large part since a few of the guys I bike/run with all shave them regularly and were perpetually giving me crap. Now I keep them pretty trimmed overall, as I have grown to hate the feeling of 'long' leg hair. I have shaved my arms for quite some time going back to my MMA days...just felt much better, especially taping up my hands/wrists...not fun pulling tape of hairy arms. 

See you can immediately change your riding skill level by shaving your legs!

That is a lot of work! I can't imagine how much it takes to keep up with it!

Most triathletes are sketchy riders by roadie standards.  A couple of years ago I started riding with a group of cyclists (one of the best training choices I've ever made by the way, and I'm sorry that I had to stop but the scheduling no longer works) and only then did I really understand what 'good handling' means.  I was relegated to the back until I was up to their standards.  (They were totally nice about it.)  When I started with them, I could barely hang on to the back anyway!  When those guys surge it is pretty daunting to match the acceleration.  I occasionally ride with the 'A' group around here and still find it difficult to hang on when they decide to put in 5 minutes of crazy hard.  There's nothing like trying to hold someone's wheel for motivation.

You mean besides vanity?  I have been in a few wrecks, and I can say that it is nice not to have hair in the same place as road rash.  But honestly -- and I was thinking about this on the way home from the pool today (gasp!  he swam!) -- I've been doing it long enough now that hair on my legs just feels weird.  I guess that's a good enough reason for me.  Oh, and the one I alluded to earlier.  

100% correct.  You are far better off in a position that you can hold for the race than one that requires you to sit up for any significant amount of time.  The aero penalty for sitting up (as opposed to the difference between aero awesomeness and just being in the aero bars however it works) is pretty big.

By the way, I was just involved in a discussion over in Fred D's group about bike fit.  It was neat to see people post their positions and discuss it a bit. Might be fun here too.  I'll try to get a decent pic of me on my bike soon and start that discussion.  I've always learned a lot from those discussions, especially as bike fit is (for me, at least, and I think for many) an ever-evolving thing.

If an MMA guy can shave, then I say it is manly to shave...  I shaved my arms for one season, but didn't like it.  I'm not a particularly hairy person anyway -- from more than 10 feet you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between me shaved and me not shaved.

II was not offended by any means. I completely understand what you mean by sketchy rider and to be honest I still am a sketchy rider. The sketchy part disappears with time and experience! I remember the first time I rode my bike with my brand new aero bars .... wow ... I practiced it on the trainer but actually riding in them outside was a different story. I am very comfortable in them now and I usually leave the aero position only to shift since I don't have the shifters on the aero bars. 

I am still shaky riding overall and don't think I would feel comfortable riding in a decent size group. Riding with three or four people is one thing but with 20 people all around you ... different story. 

Now going back to shaving ... I shave my arms for looks ... my wife doesn't necessarily approves but lives with it. That alone is a lot of maintenance ... I can imagine how much longer it would take to shave my legs as well. I understand that in a few years/seasons I probably will shave my legs ... maybe that comes with my new bike ... :-) that I hopefully get someday!

Sketchmeister here.  Guilty as charged.  Stay 3 bike lengths away at all times (which is usually easy as I'll bring up the rear around here).  I don't shave.  I mentioned to my wife and she said, "don't start".  I imagine she's concerned about large swaths of discarded hair in drains, on the kitchen floor, flying across the neighbor's yard, etc.  I mentioned she could probably make a nice sweater from it... she wasn't buying.  Personally, not against it or anything, just not interested in adding another thing to do.  I've got the flossing down now... don't want to mess with the routine... lol.

My shaving days are behind me... used to do that for States in swimming in high school.  Gotta say, it was good for a couple of seconds / 100.  Of course, then you had to swim in knee socks for drag for a few weeks until the next big meet.  Anyway, I associate it with swimming, but I gather there's a drag reduction benefit for biking as well. 

First things first, losing 15 pounds will do more for my race speed than anything else right now!  Then I can work on better aero position.  Oh, and a better bike too!  After that, we can talk about shaving... but by the time that happens, I'll probably be in the 60s and either my hair will have fallen out or my competition will have fallen by the wayside.  Either way, I think my shaving days are over.

Stu

A little quiet here today!  Did a 3000 swim at lunch (MS 20x100 on 1:50) and have a 1:30 bike with 10 min brick run on tap tonight. Kind of a big training day but the swim is a "make-up" for missing on Monday due to the pool being closed for weather.

Finally some nice weather here. I ran yesterday evening and it was 80 degrees with low humidity and a north breeze. Time to break out the parka and gloves!

It will be the weekend before we know it!

Randy

Hard work all day today.  Very very difficult personnel issues to deal with.  I wish I could 'unload' about it, but as this forum is semi-public, can't do it.  The lawyers among you understand...

As I mentioned earlier, I was drawn into a fun discussion about bike fit over on Fred D's mentor group, and thought folks might like to try it here.  It's all among friends.  If you want to post pics or video, feel free and we can all discuss it, bearing in mind that beyond some very general principles, internet fitting is mostly about exchanging ideas to think about and not about absolute advice, which requires a good bit of expertise and personal interaction.

Anyway, I'll get started.  I was fit a while back by Matt Cole of Atlanta, GA, who came very highly recommended, and I came out of that session very happy with his attention to detail, willingness to work at it until we got it right, and his general attitude, especially his openness about what he was thinking, areas where he felt some uncertainty versus areas where he felt confident, etc.  I learned a great deal and I think I came out with a good fit.

Here's a video that I took today.  It was right after a very tough group ride, so I'm pretty toasted at this point, but I figured 'what the heck?' and threw the bike on the trainer and taped it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3H-a4B-6FU&feature=youtu.be

I didn't get the camera dead on 90 degrees to the bike, but it's reasonably close.  And no aero helmet because I was too lazy to walk inside and upstairs to get it (the video is taken in my garage).

My thoughts on looking at the video are that mostly I still like this fit.  I wish I could get my head lower, but I really can't, at least not for any length of time.  As it is, this is a position that I pretty much held for 112 miles at IMWI, so it is sustainable, although my head position was less good towards the end -- I hope that better training would have taken care of that.  (I tend not to ride in aero enough during training.)  However, there is a little rocking in my hips.  Maybe that's just because of how fried I was at that point, but I need to check it when I'm a bit fresher.  Seat could be a tad too high?  Also -- and this doesn't show up in the video but does in pics from IMWI -- I need a different aero helmet.  I cannot get it flat against my back.  That's on the agenda for this winter.

The other big change I want to make over the winter is shorter cranks.  Adding those could potentially change a lot, and maybe help with the rocking, if that's a problem.  Once I get them, I'll probably go back to Matt Cole for round 2.

ETA:  Oh, and one other self-comment.  I went in to see Matt with a much narrower front (my elbows were closer together).  He convinced me (I resisted mightily at first!) that I needed to open up a bit.  I'm glad I listened to him.  I think it increased power more than it decreased aero.  Can't know for sure, but that's how I feel about it after some testing.

Michael-I'm not much help as I think it looks good. I'm a big believer in comfort being more important than an extreme, but aero, position.  I think the biggest improvement most of us can make is to "turtle" our head to make a nice line from the helmet over the back. That may be inconsistent with my comfort comment above.

I have not worried about tweaking my fit since I bought my current bike in Jan. 2011. Primarily this is due to the fact that I am very comfortable in the aero position even for extended periods of time.

Oh, your garage looks nice and neat and I like your tool box

Randy 

Michael, 

I like your post and video about bike fitting. I was really hesitant about raising my arms pads a slight bit, and widening them, but honestly with how much shoulder discomfort I have it is well worth it. I have my first "long" (3 hour) ride with the new set-up followed by a 1 hour run. Will be interesting to see how I feel, and my initial thoughts of the fit itself. Hopefully it is a step in the right direction. 

Lol.  Yea, I don't find it to be particularly comfortable when done to an extreme, although one can get used to it.

That's a very good sign, though I do like to revisit fit every 6-9 months and see whether I can make improvements.

I think most guys fill those things up with automotive tools.  Mine is full of bike tools.  I probably couldn't pull an oil filter from any car you care to name (because, for one, I wouldn't know where to look...), but I could pull the bottom bracket out of just about any bike you care to name....

And that's all that matters.  Any aero 'guru' who doesn't think about power in conjunction with cDa is not a 'guru' in my book.  I do think that we can slowly adapt to gradually new positions over time.  Radical changes are probably not the way to go. But there is definitely a limit, a point where even in the ideal world, more aero = less speed.

Absolutely correct, IMO.  (I don't think Clegget had the fastest IMAZ AG split, but it was very fast, and (more important) his overall time was incredible.)

I think that one of the (actually, few) values of a power meter is to assess this issue.  Of course other things are in play -- especially rolling resistance and aero equipment on the bike (wheels, helmet) -- but assuming that cyclists at the pointy end are roughly similar as regards these things (an assumption that might not be true), comparing speed versus power can be useful -- of course, you have to get honest and comparable data from other cyclists and that can be very hard to do for a variety of reasons.  The other (more reliable but longer term) option is to compare yourself on the same course under similar conditions (similar power, resistance, and temperature) but different positions) over time.  I have found this sort of comparison to be the most helpful.

Michael, do you normally pedal like that with your toes pointed down?  My very first impression was that you have a lot of knee bend at the bottom of your stroke, but also noticed that was because your toes were pointed down.  Not to say it's right or wrong, just something I noticed that I haven't really seen before with other videos.

Your head actually looks pretty low.  I don't see how you can get it much lower unless you hunch your back more.

Hi Jason.  Yeah, I always pedal that way.  I posted a couple of pics on Slowtwitch (and on a different bike) a while back (maybe 18 months or so?) and Andrew Coggan and a few other gurus weighed in saying that my seat was too high (it was), among other things.  My response was 'I naturally pedal toes down' and theirs was (correctly) 'you have no choice because of the seat height'.  Anyway, long story short, I lowered the seat and still pedaled toes-down.  I discussed this at length with Matt Cole (my fitter) and he doesn't think it's a problem.  Nor can I seem to break the habit.  I've tried consciously dropping my heel at the bottom of the stroke, but I always revert to toes-down, especially when I'm tired.

Now when I get grief about it, I always post this picture:

Should have added -- I think it might be worth me trying to get rid of at least some of the toe pointing again.  Maybe a winter project...  But it will never go away completely, I suspect.

There was an interesting thread a few months back by "Leegocrap" (?) about his experience with fit/aerodynamics in wind tunnel testing. It was interesting. Some of the position tweaks that are typically considered to be "aero" are not or provide minimum gains.

As I thought back I have tweaked my position a bit. I removed one of the spacers at the front to lower my front end position and have fiddled with seat position/height.  

OK... who is racing this weekend?  If I recall Rene has a HIM?  Anyone else?

Randy