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JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED (Page 8)
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 2011-02-15 7:17 AM in reply to: #3355549 |
Elite  3498     Chicago |  Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSEDNole Runner - 2011-02-15 7:03 AM on you long training days, did you bike 4-6 hours and follow it with a run of 2-3 hrs. or did you do your long rides on one day and follow it with a long run on the next day? I've seen where some people do it one way, others do it the other. Just wondering how you guys did it? thanks, [/QUOTE only in VERY special circumstances would I prescribe a long bike followed immediately by a long run. it just unnecessarily exposes the athlete to potential injury. i have all my athletes do their long run on sat and their long bike on sun (reverse than almost all the training plans out there today). regularly doing your long run the day after your long bike doesn't reallly do much more than teach you to run slow and over time dramatically decreases the quality (i.e. speeds at which you can hit) of that long run. then as we draw closer to IM raceday I move their long run to mid week (if it's logistically possible for them) and then move to multi bricks (run-bike-run-bike), tempo bricks, or back to back long rides on the weekends. furthermore, I tend to stay away from regularly incorporating significant brick workouts until building for IM and more favor increasing run durability throughout the week as well as short runs off the bike....like 30-45min. |
| 2011-02-15 12:02 PM in reply to: #3355264 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED jimmyb - 2011-02-14 9:28 PM OK, I was curious how I can develop a better kick in the swim (or should I even try?). I have no problem swimming long distances, but this is with little to no kick. I often wonder if I developed a good kick, how much faster could I be? In Ironman races, I have always viewed the swim as a "warmup" for the day, and come out of the water feeling good, not overly tired. This is especially true for my legs as I need to preserve them for the bike/run. This morning I kicked 20 laps in the pool, with fins. Take the fins away and I make virtually little to no forward progress. Would I be better off focusing on other things than working on my kick for the potential time savings in Ironman distance races? For a reference my I've swam 7 IM races, with swim times all over the map 75 min-94 min. WARNING: Swimming is most definitely not my strength. But I do know some good swimmers. I would say, especially in triathlons, that it is not important to have a particularly strong kick. That said, having an effective one is. Effective meaning that it should contribute to forward propulsion (even if only slightly) and help get your body to roll from side-to-side while staying aligned in the water (not "fish-tailing"). I do some kicking in most of my swims. Not a lot, but some. Using fins can help you develop a feel for the kick, but I tend to agree that it is a good idea to do some (maybe most) of your kicking without them. So, I would agree that you don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time working on your kick. But adding a few sets to your warm-up or maybe doing 50 kick in between other intervals in your main set may help you develop a more effective one that should be help to you on race day. |
| 2011-02-15 12:22 PM in reply to: #3355549 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Nole Runner - 2011-02-15 8:03 AM on you long training days, did you bike 4-6 hours and follow it with a run of 2-3 hrs. or did you do your long rides on one day and follow it with a long run on the next day? I've seen where some people do it one way, others do it the other. Just wondering how you guys did it? thanks, I have never done a brick that long (outside of a race). And in-season, I almost never do a long ride followed by a long run. Or vice versa. I prefer to break up the long run from the longer bikes, so I run long mid-week (often Thursday mornings). I find this gives me a higher quality run and higher quality rides on the weekend (I typically ride both Sat & Sun in-season and most weeks are 3hrs/2hrs with 20-30min running off one or both). I don't believe in "learning to run on tired legs", but do understand that some people derive some mental benefit to learning that they can do so in training. Also, for some, doing a long run during the week simply isn't feasible (I'll admit, getting up pre-4:30am does take some extra effort even for me  ) so they are left with both the ride & run on the weekend.I actively encourage people to try to break up the long rides and run because I believe it provides better workouts for both sports and spreads out recovery through the week better. That's what I do myself. Seperately, I don't think many triathletes (there are always exceptions) ought to be doing runs of 3hrs in IM training at all. Similar to the frequency advice I've given before with running, I think most are better off building most of their volume that way. A long run of 2hrs or so is plenty in training and most don't really have the base to be doing 3hr runs which are terribly taxing physically mostly due to the repetitive pounding. Those really long runs tend to have negative impacts on other "downstream" workouts. |
| 2011-02-15 12:37 PM in reply to: #3282504 |
Regular 149 Grand Blanc, MI | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED John/Steve, thanks for the perspectives. John, interesting note on your long runs. No 3 hr runs? While I'm all for that, and Lord knows my IT band doesn't need it, but my concern is, is a 2 hr/13 mile run long enough? thanks, |
| 2011-02-15 12:38 PM in reply to: #3282504 |
Regular 149 Grand Blanc, MI | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED p.s. - all this typed while taking my daily dose of anti-inflamatories!! |
| 2011-02-15 1:03 PM in reply to: #3282504 |
Veteran 225 Milwaukee, WI | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Sorry I've been MIA- things have been very hectic here. I did a 2 mile fun run on Saturday and an indoor triathlon Sunday, and now today I'm feeling a little under the weather. |
| 2011-02-15 1:04 PM in reply to: #3356315 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Nole Runner - 2011-02-15 1:37 PM John/Steve, thanks for the perspectives. John, interesting note on your long runs. No 3 hr runs? While I'm all for that, and Lord knows my IT band doesn't need it, but my concern is, is a 2 hr/13 mile run long enough? thanks, That depends. How much are you running during the rest of the week? If you run, for example, 3/3/7/7/13, you will be better off than running 6/6/18. I can assure you, the next 30min of running is going to provide you with only limited additional preperation for the second half of the IM run. But bumpt it up a couple miles once or twice if it helps calm your mind. Also, are you better off running 13mi and recovering well? Or trying for 18mi and pushing your IT band (or other body part) beyond its current limits? That 6/6/18 is generally a "riskier" plan (injury-wise) even though it has less volume than the 3/3/7/7/13. Someone smarter than me came up with the line that it's far better to arrive at the IM start line 10% undertrained than 1% overtrained. |
| 2011-02-15 1:10 PM in reply to: #3282504 |
Regular 149 Grand Blanc, MI | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Thanks John. I'll be running something like 5/7/5/13-15. Looks like I'll be in good shape based on your suggestions. |
| 2011-02-15 1:27 PM in reply to: #3356376 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Jennifers - 2011-02-15 1:03 PM Sorry I've been MIA- things have been very hectic here. I did a 2 mile fun run on Saturday and an indoor triathlon Sunday, and now today I'm feeling a little under the weather. racine 70.3 start is in waves, so you'll only be with about 20-40 people. it's not a mass start. best way to prepare for frigid choppy water conditions is to swim in frigid choppy water conditions. sounds silly, but works amazingly well. you're body actually becomes "trained" to handle cold water the more often you expose it to cold water...so do it often as you can. don't wear the thermal footies. you won't need them. your feet will get numb after about 15 min and you won't feel them anymore so it'll be a moot point. |
| 2011-02-15 2:41 PM in reply to: #3282504 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED I'm with JK. 3hr runs are not mandatory in IM trng. I typically have people run only one 3hr run for their first IM with the exception being if they have a strong marathon running background, then volume becomes less of an issue. typically athletes with a strong marathon running background come to the sport weak on the bike so I opt to have them do some big back to back rides on sat and sun during peak volume vs 3hr run(s). |
| 2011-02-15 2:49 PM in reply to: #3356376 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Jennifers - 2011-02-15 2:03 PM Sorry I've been MIA- things have been very hectic here. I did a 2 mile fun run on Saturday and an indoor triathlon Sunday, and now today I'm feeling a little under the weather. The best way to prepare is to work on your swimming. Become a stronger swimmer and it becomes easier to handle any jostling, chop, etc. In really cold water, you are generally better to worry about your head. Some people find a neoprene cap (under the race cap you have to wear) can help. Others just double up a regular swim cap. I have swam in very cold water for an HIM before (mid-high 50s). It was tough, but doable. My feet were a bit numb when I got out (although they ended up worse off the bike since the air temp dropped into the 40s and it rained), but I was definitely more worried about other things at the time. Also, you should get in the water before the start if you can. It allows your body to adjust for one. And it also allows some water into your suit which your body can then warm-up. The iniital shock is typically the worst part of swimming in the cold water, so get it over with. |
| 2011-02-15 2:57 PM in reply to: #3356381 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED I don't want to leave the impression at all that run training isn't important for IM but, for many triathletes, I think they would be best served by focusing their efforts on getting to T2 as fresh as possible. This means swimming more than many do and biking a lot. And doing each of those at a relatively hard effort fairly often too. Then, on race day, go very easy. Relax. Don't worry about splits, etc. Get your nutrition down. If you do all that, and put in some decent run training (not necessarily like you would do for an open marathon), you will find yourself passing a lot of people on the second half of the run. |
| 2011-02-15 3:46 PM in reply to: #3356539 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED JohnnyKay - 2011-02-15 2:49 PM Jennifers - 2011-02-15 2:03 PM Sorry I've been MIA- things have been very hectic here. I did a 2 mile fun run on Saturday and an indoor triathlon Sunday, and now today I'm feeling a little under the weather. The best way to prepare is to work on your swimming. Become a stronger swimmer and it becomes easier to handle any jostling, chop, etc. In really cold water, you are generally better to worry about your head. Some people find a neoprene cap (under the race cap you have to wear) can help. Others just double up a regular swim cap. I have swam in very cold water for an HIM before (mid-high 50s). It was tough, but doable. My feet were a bit numb when I got out (although they ended up worse off the bike since the air temp dropped into the 40s and it rained), but I was definitely more worried about other things at the time. Also, you should get in the water before the start if you can. It allows your body to adjust for one. And it also allows some water into your suit which your body can then warm-up. The iniital shock is typically the worst part of swimming in the cold water, so get it over with. JK reminded me of something to mention. Wetsuits are called "wet"suits because it's actually the thin layer of water that get trapped between the suit and your skin that helps a lot to insulate you. Furthermore, the suit fits better if water is run through the wetsuit. So when you put the wetsuit on be sure to go in the water up to your head, pull back the neckline all around to let water in, then walk out of the water and let that water flow out of your wrists and ankles so the wetsuit SUCKS to your skin. Drysuits are the complete opposite whereby it's the air between the suit and your skin that helps to keep you warm (in addition to the fleece you wear...ha ha ha). |
| 2011-02-15 5:26 PM in reply to: #3356376 |
Expert 1023 , | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Jennifers - 2011-02-15 2:03 PM Sorry I've been MIA- things have been very hectic here. I did a 2 mile fun run on Saturday and an indoor triathlon Sunday, and now today I'm feeling a little under the weather. Hope you are feeling better! Your log says you were first female in your indoor tri. Congratulations! Since you opened discussion to those of us newbies to HIM races, I think the one thing I am most concerned about is the swim. I have drastically improved as a swim over the past three years (my first triathlon was Chicago, where I used a snorkel...) but I am curious if anyone has any advice in regards to seeding for the swim start? I am still what I consider to be a slow swimmer (about 1:50/100yd) but don't want to get stuck behind someone either. I am doing the Racine 70.3 race, so I am guaranteed frigid water temperatures and most likely very choppy conditions. Is there a way to prepare for this in training? Also, in really cold water, how much do the thermal footies slow you down? This may sound crazy, but my feet are SUPER sensitive to cold, so I am a little concerned on how to handle that on race day. I did Escape from Alcatraz a few years ago and the water was somewhere in the 50's. I definitely agree with John about keeping the head warm; I wore a neoprene cap under my swim cap and that worked well. My feet were fine, but I've never tried anything on my feet so I have no experience with that. If you are able to practice in conditions similar to the race that would be great. I also get in the water as much as possible before the start, and really like to get my face wet, especially when it is cold so you don't get that shock that can mess up your breathing. Like Steve said, with a wave start it shouldn't be too crowded. I've only done races with wave starts and never have too much trouble with crowding. In fact, since I'm a poor sighter and navigator I try to stay close to people, and hopefully they are better at swimming straight than me! Anthony |
| 2011-02-16 11:28 AM in reply to: #3282504 |
Expert 866 | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Late night meal cravings..... As my training is picking up, I have been waking up around 2-3 AM, very hungry!! Craving sweets in particular. Looking for ideas for foods that my prevent this awakening, or other ideas so this does not occur. Finally, when I do wake up with this carbohydate craving, what do others eat that is nutritious and satisfies this hunger? |
| 2011-02-16 11:50 AM in reply to: #3358015 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED jimmyb - 2011-02-16 12:28 PM Late night meal cravings..... As my training is picking up, I have been waking up around 2-3 AM, very hungry!! Craving sweets in particular. Looking for ideas for foods that my prevent this awakening, or other ideas so this does not occur. Finally, when I do wake up with this carbohydate craving, what do others eat that is nutritious and satisfies this hunger? I guess the first question is are you eating enough? Having some late night cravings may not be all that unusual, but waking up due to hunger is. "Solutions" are probably all over the map and may be individual. I'd start by making sure you are fueling yourself appropriately throughout the day. Perhaps schedule an evening snack, but try to keep it mostly on the healthy side (some nuts, yogurt with fruit, carrot sticks, etc.). Also, while I know some people believe in avoiding sugar (or at least added sugar) altogether, I find that if I allow myself appropriately portioned "treats" it doesn't affect my weight much, makes it easier to eat healthy most of the time and keeps me happy. |
| 2011-02-16 12:15 PM in reply to: #3282504 |
New user 7 | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED John, a question of ethics? I walk around at about 193 -196. I do alot of strength training as it is important to my job. I also take pride in being able to bench press 300lbs and still do endurance events. My question is this..would it be wrong for me to add a couple more pounds of mass to become a clidesdale? I have a buddy who says that clidesdales are trying to become age group not the other way around. My main motivation for this is to be able to start in the same wave as my training partner, plus I could probably place in some local events in that category. |
| 2011-02-16 1:25 PM in reply to: #3282504 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Late night cravings (i.e. middle of the night) mean you are underfed. YOu need to eat more my friend. Try to stack your dinner and/or snack with a bit more low glycemic foods and a litttle more protein. Right before i go to bed I down 25g or 100% pure isolate whey in 8oz of water. Being underfed will dramatically affect your recovery and can, over time, begin to increase your exposure to injury. |
| 2011-02-16 2:06 PM in reply to: #3358173 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED dscott158 - 2011-02-16 1:15 PM John, a question of ethics? I walk around at about 193 -196. I do alot of strength training as it is important to my job. I also take pride in being able to bench press 300lbs and still do endurance events. My question is this..would it be wrong for me to add a couple more pounds of mass to become a clidesdale? I have a buddy who says that clidesdales are trying to become age group not the other way around. My main motivation for this is to be able to start in the same wave as my training partner, plus I could probably place in some local events in that category. Clydesdale is just a race category. Not all races have them and some have slightly different requirements than others. I don't really see any kind of "ethical" issue, myself (many will debate who "truly" belongs as a Clyde or Athena, but I just don't see it as that important). Of course, I also have a hard time seeing how trying to add weight while training for an endurance event is a great idea either--it certainly won't help your finish time. My suggestion would be to do the work you do (tri training & strength training), eat well, and let your weight falls where it falls. But, really, that's more just what I would do. |
| 2011-02-16 2:13 PM in reply to: #3358459 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED JohnnyKay - 2011-02-16 2:06 PM dscott158 - 2011-02-16 1:15 PM John, a question of ethics? I walk around at about 193 -196. I do alot of strength training as it is important to my job. I also take pride in being able to bench press 300lbs and still do endurance events. My question is this..would it be wrong for me to add a couple more pounds of mass to become a clidesdale? I have a buddy who says that clidesdales are trying to become age group not the other way around. My main motivation for this is to be able to start in the same wave as my training partner, plus I could probably place in some local events in that category. Clydesdale is just a race category. Not all races have them and some have slightly different requirements than others. I don't really see any kind of "ethical" issue, myself (many will debate who "truly" belongs as a Clyde or Athena, but I just don't see it as that important). Of course, I also have a hard time seeing how trying to add weight while training for an endurance event is a great idea either--it certainly won't help your finish time. My suggestion would be to do the work you do (tri training & strength training), eat well, and let your weight falls where it falls. But, really, that's more just what I would do. x2 on JK. think of it this way....is it "unethical" for a fighter to drop weight before weigh in for the fight? is it "unethical" for a wrestler to do the same? if you are in a weight class you are in a weight class. nothing unethical about being in the class. Just my opinion. |
| 2011-02-17 5:26 PM in reply to: #3358015 |
Expert 1023 , | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED jimmyb - 2011-02-16 12:28 PM Late night meal cravings..... As my training is picking up, I have been waking up around 2-3 AM, very hungry!! Craving sweets in particular. Looking for ideas for foods that my prevent this awakening, or other ideas so this does not occur. Finally, when I do wake up with this carbohydate craving, what do others eat that is nutritious and satisfies this hunger? I agree with John and Steve; make sure you are eating enough. I know when I increase my training I really need to eat more. I will have a night time snack about an hour before bed of mainly protein pretty frequently. Usually just a little leftover from dinner, or cottage cheese or ricotta if there is some in the fridge. I don't know about everyone else, but I am really psyched to get the season started. I just added a sprint du to my schedule for April, so now I have a good race each month from March through September. Can't wait!! Now I just need to find something for October... Anthony |
| 2011-02-17 9:00 PM in reply to: #3282504 |
Expert 866 | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Thanks for the advice on nutrition. I will give it a go and see how it makes a difference. I too am getting excited for tri season this year. I'm thinking about adding an indoor triathlon to my schedule next month, basically 20 min each discipline. I've never done an indoor triathlon before but it sounds like it will be lots of fun. My first IM of the season is this May in Texas. I'm getting pretty close to matching my training plan and things overall are going well. I am concerned about the heat in Texas as I will only be there about 5 days prior to the race so being able to acclimate will be a challenge. I will be heading out west in April and will get some hot weather training at that time, but unless it's really hot in May in Michigan I will be at a disadvantage come race day. This is not going to keep me from doing the race, but it will be a challenge (but then again, it's Ironman and anything can happen!). I remember one year doing IM MOO in 90 degrees hot and humid, then doing the same race again in '07 when it was low 50's, windy and rainy all day. |
| 2011-02-18 9:24 AM in reply to: #3360990 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED It's been too long since I last raced. I NEED to do it again soon! This morning I had a good ride on the trainer. Really shelled myself. Haven't had that want-to-roll-off-the-bike feeling and the shaking legs on the way upstairs in awhile. I miss that. As you noted, you never know what kind of weather you are going to get. But, if you expect heat/humidity, there are some strategies some people use to force their body to acclimate. In the 2-3 weeks prior to race day, do more of your sessions wearing excess layers. Or do more indoor work (on the bike & run) where you restrict cooling. If nothing else, it may help mentally. But if you do that and wake up to 50 degrees on race day, you may be bummed. If it is very hot or humid, just remember to reset your expectations and pace yourself appropriately (slower). This would be especially true if you weren't fully acclimated to those conditions. |
| 2011-02-18 9:29 AM in reply to: #3282504 |
Not a Coach 11473 Media, PA | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Any plans for the weekend, crew? I'm probably going to have a tough time doing much in the way of workouts. My sister is getting married on Sunday, so we have the wedding and some surrounding events plus the usual handful of kids' games to make both mornings & afternoons. But I'm off on Monday and can hopefully make up for some then. |
| 2011-02-18 9:32 AM in reply to: #3282504 |
Elite 3498 Chicago | Subject: RE: JohnnyKay's HIM & IM focused Group - CLOSED Yeah, trying to project weather on race day and train for it is such a crap shoot, especially in May in TX where it has been know to vary widely. I end up putting my chips on the table and just go with that and hope race day weather isn't too far off from my "guess" Trouble always is (as we all know) that you continually have that inner fight with yourself: train for the heat at the expense of quality workouts or train quality at the expense of unexpected heat on race day. As you've experienced, very few people were "trained" for 65 degrees and rain/wind all day at IMWI that year. The benefit of the heat at IMWI 2005 was that in the midwest that year the summer was so hot that many were "acclimated" to it because the summer heat was so bad for months leading up to that day. Good luck in whatever number you choose on your roulette wheel, we know you'll improvise, adapt, and overcome; whatever is thrown at you in TX. |
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