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2012-09-17 6:03 PM
in reply to: #4333512

Master
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II

So let me rephrase:

SRM's prices don't reflect the value of the technology

 

Let's face it, this is strain gauges to get a torque average, and a computer doing a little math.  The crank manufacture might require a little creativity to make a unit that's both waterproof and user serviceable.  But otherwise, not rocket science.

I don't know what patents are out there on this stuff but that's the only thing that would sustain high prices.  Maybe this new product figured out a way to avoid treading on those.



2012-09-17 6:13 PM
in reply to: #4415526

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
spudone - 2012-09-17 1:03 PM

So let me rephrase:

SRM's prices don't reflect the value of the technology

 

Let's face it, this is strain gauges to get a torque average, and a computer doing a little math.  The crank manufacture might require a little creativity to make a unit that's both waterproof and user serviceable.  But otherwise, not rocket science.

I don't know what patents are out there on this stuff but that's the only thing that would sustain high prices.  Maybe this new product figured out a way to avoid treading on those.

I could be wrong on this, but I think the patent on some of SRM's design has recently expired.  Not sure when, but I think we could be scratching the surface on the expansion of power meter options and price reductions. 

In the past 5-10 years, there was a huge amount of R&D, and market penetration costs that had to be passed down to customers.  So the cost that was justifiable 10 years ago...I agree is no longer applicable today given what we know about strain gauges, and how many people are currently ready to buy a power meter.

The same goes for race wheels.  Most of the tough R&D work has been done, and the list of buyers has grown so big that we really shouldn't be seeing $2-3k wheelsets for much longer.  It's just a matter of time before other options arise, and consumers start speaking with their wallets.

 

2012-09-17 6:18 PM
in reply to: #4415537

Master
5557
50005002525
, California
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
tri808 - 2012-09-17 4:13 PM
spudone - 2012-09-17 1:03 PM

So let me rephrase:

SRM's prices don't reflect the value of the technology

 

Let's face it, this is strain gauges to get a torque average, and a computer doing a little math.  The crank manufacture might require a little creativity to make a unit that's both waterproof and user serviceable.  But otherwise, not rocket science.

I don't know what patents are out there on this stuff but that's the only thing that would sustain high prices.  Maybe this new product figured out a way to avoid treading on those.

I could be wrong on this, but I think the patent on some of SRM's design has recently expired.  Not sure when, but I think we could be scratching the surface on the expansion of power meter options and price reductions. 

In the past 5-10 years, there was a huge amount of R&D, and market penetration costs that had to be passed down to customers.  So the cost that was justifiable 10 years ago...I agree is no longer applicable today given what we know about strain gauges, and how many people are currently ready to buy a power meter.

The same goes for race wheels.  Most of the tough R&D work has been done, and the list of buyers has grown so big that we really shouldn't be seeing $2-3k wheelsets for much longer.  It's just a matter of time before other options arise, and consumers start speaking with their wallets.

Part of the price is licensing with crank manufacturers.  SRM uses Shimano, Quarq SRAM, for example.  Another chunk is for ANT+ and/or Bluetooth, each of which have their own license fees for any device that uses them.

But in general what you said still applies.  These companies are no doubt already brainstorming on cool new things they can build to stay ahead.  There'll be a "next big thing" we just don't know what it is yet.

2012-09-17 6:34 PM
in reply to: #4415546

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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
spudone - 2012-09-17 1:18 PM

Part of the price is licensing with crank manufacturers.  SRM uses Shimano, Quarq SRAM, for example.  Another chunk is for ANT+ and/or Bluetooth, each of which have their own license fees for any device that uses them.

I think the cool thing about this new product is that it should work with any crank since it's the left hand arm.  SRM and Quarq are measuring from the spider, so they can choose to be Shimano or SRAM specific if they want to be (Quarq used to be compatible with many more cranks such as FSA before being bought out by SRAM).

 

2012-09-17 7:48 PM
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2012-09-17 7:51 PM
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2012-09-17 8:18 PM
in reply to: #4415523

Elite
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
tri808 - 2012-09-17 8:00 PM

Fred, I agree with a lot of your comments about power.  Frankly, I would feel pretty confident about racing Oly and longer without power and simply using HR.  I feel this way because I have learned what it feels like to push X watts, and at the Oly distance or longer, you are largely capped off by your HR anyway.

Also agree with using power in training for shorter intervals (1-5 minutes).  That's my bread and butter during training and where I would miss it the most.

I have a friend who just bought an SRM (new, but second hand).  Got a great deal on it, but I still think he over estimates how much a power meter will actually do for him.  You still need to put in the hard work...if you weren't willing to do it before (as he would get dropped by me and other riders who chose to ride balls to the wall), a power meter isn't going to magically make you able to do it.

The bolded is interesting.  I got my wife a PT half way through last winter.  After using it for a while following Jorge's program, she made the comment once (and other times after) that she *thought* she already was working hard on the trainer before.  Having the numbers to chase on the PT for intervals showed her how much harder she really could push it.  So in some cases it's not a matter of not being willing to do the work, it's not understanding just how much you are capable of.  Now that doesn't apply to your friend who gets dropped because he has the carrot to chase and either doesn't or can't....  

2012-09-17 8:22 PM
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Elite
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
TSimone - 2012-09-17 9:51 PM

Front shot so Arend can mock my sticker...

Your legs aren't hairy enough and the sticker is too straight!

Those are some nice body marking numbers on your arms.  Stickers or stamps?

2012-09-17 8:23 PM
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Champion
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
TSimone - 2012-09-17 8:48 PM

OK, my turn in the barrel.  This is from last weekend at Cedar point.  On course pic, which is a pretty decent side shot.  I'm thinking get rid of the spacers, maybe flip the stem and if that doesn't work, get a new stem.  I'd even consider a new set of bars if it would help.  One surprise to me is the heel above the toe.  Don't be gentle, fire away.  Looking to change and acclimate over the winter.

 

Nice looking ride!

Your situation is a bit different from Neil's.  You've actually already accomplished what for many is the hard part -- getting your head in line with your back.  (This comes easier to some than others.)  Like him, though, you could stand to rotate counter-clockwise, and your seat is too high.  Crank is past its lowest point and you look like you're still reaching.  Your hip angle actually doesn't look horrible, and knee angle is OK, but it still does look like you are reaching, and I wonder whether your hip is dropped a bit (which would distort the angle in a still shot and is hard to detect there, but would be clear in person or in a video).

It is more clear for you than it was for Neil how to do the rotation.  You need to lower the front end a good bit (as he does), lower the seat a tad, and move the seat forward.  (Without some experiment, I think it's unclear about Neil's fore/aft seat movement.  I'd bet dollars to donuts that yours needs to come forward.)

None of this should change your overall body angles that much -- apart from the reaching with the left leg, they look OK (for an 'internet fitting').  I.e., you shouldn't lose any 'comfort' (same provisos apply here as those that I posted in response to Neil's pics).  For an IM position, I'd suggest focussing only on that rotation.  You don't want to get crazy for 112 miles unless you've got way too much time to devote to it.  For shorter distances you could consider turtling, shrugging the shoulders, and getting a little more extreme in front, but for IM I wouldn't recommend changing much about your overall position apart from rotation.

Well, there is one other thing, but it is very individual.  For many people (not all), the downward sloping forearms is worse (aerodynamically) than flat or even angled up slightly.  You cannot know for sure without careful (and as I said to Neil, race-relevant) testing, but if I had to bet (and I am a betting man...) I'd say you have some free speed to gain by getting them at least flat if not slightly angled up.

Oh, and shorten the straw and get that tube off the back and under your seat.  Wink

I should clarify at this point, lest anybody get the wrong impression (since I've commented on a few of these posts), that I am not a professional fitter.  (I'd take a huge pay cut, for one thing!)  My credentials are only those of someone who has done a lot of studying, asked too many questions of a few pretty good fitters, and done a good deal of fitting (for free or beer) of local triathletes.  So take this advice with a healthy dose of skepticism.  Hey, you get what you pay for...

2012-09-17 8:26 PM
in reply to: #4415676

Elite
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
TSimone - 2012-09-17 9:48 PM

OK, my turn in the barrel.  This is from last weekend at Cedar point.  On course pic, which is a pretty decent side shot.  I'm thinking get rid of the spacers, maybe flip the stem and if that doesn't work, get a new stem.  I'd even consider a new set of bars if it would help.  One surprise to me is the heel above the toe.  Don't be gentle, fire away.  Looking to change and acclimate over the winter.

 

I'm far from a fitter.....  

I think flipping the stem will go a long way.  I will also hazard a guess that your seat is a tad to high but not extreme.  What is in the pocket if your tri shorts?  That looks like a potential aero no-no!

2012-09-17 8:34 PM
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2012-09-17 8:40 PM
in reply to: #4415160

Elite
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
mndymond - 2012-09-17 4:52 PM
axteraa - 2012-09-17 12:25 PM
marcag - 2012-09-17 1:52 PM
axteraa - 2012-09-17 8:39 AM

I always enjoy reading analysis of other's bike positions.  I have learned a lot (I think) from reading them.  On that note, any comments on mine?  These pics are from IMMT and maybe aren't ideal as they aren't 100% front on or side on but I can't make myself put the bike on the trainer just yet.  

T

 

You're pretty low. I'm not sure I would change anything, maybe try to get the shoulders/upper arms a little narrower but you seem like your a big guy ? If so, you are like me and it's hard to reduce that upper body area

Yeah, I've got swimmer's shoulders.  I think going a touch narrower is my only option.  I will likely give it a try and see how it feels over the winter.

I have the swimmer shoulder issue as well. When I first started riding aero my bars were too narrow. I immediately was more comfortable once I widened them. For me it is probably a bit of a flexibility issue as well. I will never be the person who rides with elbows basically kissing one another.

I had the arm pads way narrower when I first got the bike.  I was following the ST aero or die mantra.  I would get a lot of tightness across my upper back and neck.  When I got a semi fit by a fitter (it was free because my wife bought a bike....), he opened me up some and it made a huge difference in comfort.

2012-09-17 8:48 PM
in reply to: #4333512

Elite
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II
Ok now I'll ask a question about Tom's setup because I don't know the answer.  What are the thoughts on not having the shifters right at your fingertips?  Personally I think that would drive me crazy but I have a friend who is setup the same as Tom and said he prefers it that way.
2012-09-17 8:53 PM
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2012-09-17 9:21 PM
in reply to: #4333512

Master
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Mechanicsburg, PA
Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II

 

Here are 2 pictures of me at IMLP 2010 in aero.  My Thumbs are on the tips of the shifters.
 
The first picture is me going around a corner in aero you can see how my shoulders are pulled out and rolled down.  I am 6’ 170lbs in these pics. 

 

2012-09-17 9:35 PM
in reply to: #4415748

Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II

axteraa - 2012-09-17 3:48 PM Ok now I'll ask a question about Tom's setup because I don't know the answer.  What are the thoughts on not having the shifters right at your fingertips?  Personally I think that would drive me crazy but I have a friend who is setup the same as Tom and said he prefers it that way.

I need my fingertips around the shifters.  In fact, when I got my new front end last year, we had to cut my extensions about 4 times before we got it right.  I originally told my mechanic where I wanted it, and he didn't believe me as it was basically cutting the extension in half (I have short arms/forearms).  So he said he would cut it, put the shifters on, then make sure I wanted to go shorter before he cut it again.  Rinse, repeat.  He said I probably shaved a lot of weight...LOL.



2012-09-17 9:39 PM
in reply to: #4415748

Champion
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Subject: RE: Fred D Mentor Group - Part II

axteraa - 2012-09-17 9:48 PM Ok now I'll ask a question about Tom's setup because I don't know the answer.  What are the thoughts on not having the shifters right at your fingertips?  Personally I think that would drive me crazy but I have a friend who is setup the same as Tom and said he prefers it that way.

FWIW I recently got some return-to-center shifters, and I was immediately in love with them.  I was able to pull the bars back so that the shifters are entirely in my hands, and because they never change position (except momentarily during the actual act of shifting) you can position them so that they fit comfortably in your hands for the long haul.  They have to be carefully calibrated, but I've (finally) found a local mechanic that can do that sort of thing reliably.  I feel like I got at least 95% of the benefit of Di2 (with no worries about battery failure!) at 10% of the cost.

2012-09-18 4:57 AM
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2012-09-18 5:03 AM
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2012-09-18 5:07 AM
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Edited by Fred D 2012-09-18 5:07 AM
2012-09-18 5:09 AM
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2012-09-18 5:10 AM
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2012-09-18 5:14 AM
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Edited by Fred D 2012-09-18 5:17 AM
2012-09-18 5:58 AM
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