Asphalt Junkies Spring 2013 - Closed (Page 85)

This is a very good question.  I'm certainly no swim pro, but have racked my brain for years now trying to figure out why swimmers train differently from other endurance athletes.  In other sports the bulk of your training is zone 2-3 for long periods of time....why don't swimmers train this way?

I read something that an expert wrote probably 2 or 3 years ago now that basically said that it was just due to tradition and the fact that endurance swimming is a niche sport (the closest thing is the 1500 in long course).  The real endurance swimming (such as the open water events) are actually quite new.  This expert swimmer DID advocate that triathletes train like they run...sort of.  We do far more slow running as a concession to injuries and overtraining.  It's almost impossible for one of us to get overtrained in the pool, so we are free to swim our long sets, or one long continuous swim, as hard as we can...  But if you do, I suggest you start slow and build throughout...or put in surges and rests just without stopping.

I think what Tracy suggested is reasonable...do one of those swims every 4 weeks, or maybe every 2?

Definitely ride more and harder in your training.  But that's always a given.  The 'free' speed (by my definition) is any speed you can gain without improving your fitness...so it's often very expensive! 

Obviously, your position on your bike can be optimized for aerodynamic efficiency.  That way any extra power you put to the pedals gives you a higher increase in speed relative to a poor position.

After that, aero wheels and an aero helmet are helpful (and the wheels are expensive).

And let's not forget tires and tubes.  They can make a bigger difference than you may realize.  And also optimizing your tire pressure for the roads and your weight is a good thing to do.

And I really love the fact that riding technique itself has already been brought up.  That's so true! 

And CONGRATULATIONS on racing a race that makes you happy!  That is so rare that we ever have a race that lives up to our hopes!

Why didn't your IT band bother you?  Because you were running off the bike!  Plus, even if you run off the bike regularly, your effort on the bike was different (probably harder and shorter) which can leave your muscles looser when you dismount...and your run was at a different speed which can change the dynamics in the legs.   This is all a guess, but it's my best guess.

Jonathan, Warren and Jeff have provided insights into how much work needs to be done in order to get from 19 to 21 MPH...And there is a lot to do!

I would suggest getting really serious about interval work.  Work just below and above threshold HR for longer intervals.  These are intervals that you should feel a lot of pain and want to quit kind of intervals.  You can also become more consistent with you choice of cadence vs. leg strength.  You may very well be trying to muscle your way through a race, burning out, recovering, burning out, recovering and so on by the description you gave in a more recent post than I am currently posting.  ("I do not have any electronics on my bike but I tried to maintain a steady cadence but I was shifting gears some just to vary the cadence and give other muscles a chance to rest by going to a higher cadence and sometime a lower cadence in bigger gears.") 

Honestly, Jorge's is going to be the easiest, least confusing way for you to pick up speed from a working standpoint........

.....But the free speed gains of specific aerodynamic gains from gear are the easiest to get.  The first piece of gear to look for is an aero helmet. 

But!!!  Speed is about the engine!  Not the gear!  You will only get so fast by purchasing gear.  If you don't build the engine, you won't race at your potential.

Amen! I think this is all great advice by Warren, Jonathan, Jeff and Dirk. After 15 weeks of working hard with Jorge's winter cycling program and hopefully finishing up the final week this week I finally feel like my Cervelo P2 has a worthy engine. Last season I didn't feel so worthy of riding that bike but this year I can't wait to get outdoors and see how much I've actually improved. After killing myself all winter I better see some improvement.

Jen nice swim today especially after the layoff and good job staying composed as well. I know that happens to me as well on occasion. It seems like it's real easy to give in and panic when you get thrown off while swimming. I always try and resist that urge to give into that and just try and remain calm and let it pass.

Jen, isn't it fascinating (read "annoying") how much our mind has to do with our performance in the water?  I really focus on staying positive and being aware of the effort I am putting in relative to when I am swimming during training.  When I race, I find myself getting winded quickly and not paying attention to the fact that I have just swam 200 yards probably harder than I have in training all year!  And I wonder why I can't breathe and everyone is now passing my lame a$$.  It's good that you are getting a handle on all of this before race season.  Nice work.  You may think you are slow....BUT IT'S MARCH WOMAN!!!  No worries.  Just keep swimming.  :-D

I finished my last 20 minute FTP test and to be honest I was very disappointed once I compared the numbers to the other 3 tests. It was the worse one on average that I have done. I tried to build my effort slowly over the course of the 20 minutes and I think I did a really good job of that this time the only problem was I didn't go hard enough.

The third test which was the last one I did I went very hard and when I finished I though I was going to pass out and die. This time I finished and I felt pretty good. So I know I had more in the tank and didn't leave it all out there. The last test I sort of faded out near the end so I really put more emphasis on pacing myself. Again I think I did a good job of that I just did push as hard as I could've.

I am going to have to this again next week because it really bothers me that I don't feel like I went all out. I was down 17 watts from the last test. I also put out 4 more watts on avg in my first test on average! The positive thing is I put in a really good effort and I was not dying or pushing as hard as I could've so I think this bodes well for me. I am definitely in much better shape on the bike this year.

Here's the numbers:

First test avg pwr 274, max pwr 314
Second test avg pwr 285, max pwr 375
Third test avg pwr 287 max pwr 392
Fourth test avg pwr 270 max pwr 380 - Tonight's test

Jo63 - 2013-03-19 6:43 AM  I ran 1 mile before hand to warm up then trained hard for an hr with him then ran another 4 miles, my second run was in zone 12 .......Except I wasn't breathing hard at all. So I got home had a protein drink and then was exhausted, I literally went to lay down, and could barely eat anything I tried to get down a salad but my stomach was saying no way. So my question is: I get that I should not of ran so hard HR wise, but if Iam not even breathing hard can I/should I push like I did?

Something isn't making sense to me.  If you weren't running all that hard it would seem to me that you wouldn't have had the type of reaction to the run that you are describing. 

However, the symptoms you are describing appear to be more related to the weight training.  I have many work outs with weights that have resulted in nausea and lack of appetite but these have been more related to a BP that was greatly elevated from the anaerobic effects of extreme weight training.  When this occurred to me I had been doing very high weights and very low reps with the sets close together (which is a bad idea for what I was doing).

What it appears might have occurred to you would be that you elevated your BP during the weight training and jumped right on the treadmill before you had an opportunity to allow your BP to regulate itself. 

1. Did you do a very fast circuit? 
2. How long from the time you stopped lifting until you got on the treadmill?
3. How was the pace and HR as compared to your normal runs?

You've been talking about being really tired lately.  Do you think you went into the test with too much fatigue?

Tony-

Thanks, means a lot to know that I am not the only one out there having these mental battles.

Thanks... I am guilty, guilty, guilty of pushing too hard and getting winded on race day. Just keep swimming.... just keep swimming....

Tracy I thought about that and don't think I am any more tired than I normally am. I took a recovery week last week after the big week I had the week before and I actually took yesterday off so I would be as fresh as I could be for this test. I am thinking my effort could have been a little harder from the start. So last test I went out too hard and this test I don't think I went out hard enough. I think I am going to try again next week and see if I can get my effort and pacing right because I feel like I can do better than my best test which was that third test.

What about your bike setup?  Did you check everything to make sure it was the same as the first three tests?  If you wheel was a little looser or tire inflation was different that could be part of the problem.  Since I started using Trainer Road I have been checking my tire pressure almost every ride to ensure everything is as close to the same as possible.

I knew it!  Someone had to go all "Nemo" on Jen's post.  Yes.  I was thinking the same thing truth be told.  I have seen Nemo several times since it is one of Lisa's favorite movies.

Tony, you have great power on the bike.  You have increased and like you said you are in better bike fitness than you were earlier.  I wish I had your bike fitness!

Jen, I wish I could swim like you.  I swam 35 minutes Monday before I had to leave and the 1st 30 minutes were a struggle, the last 5 I finally felt relaxed, then I had to go....

Hahahaha... thank you for the inspirational pep talk.

Karl - thanks for swimming compliment. We shall see if my hard work pays off at Red Hills in 10 days. I definitely need towork on my bike speed and get more familiar with some technical jaron when it comes to biking. One thing at a time.

I did knock out my first ever 60-lap swim workout this morning, for a total of 3,000 yards. I was starving when I finished! On the last 5 laps, my pinky finger and ring finger on my right hand cramped up. Hilarious to get through those last 5 laps while trying to stretch and relax my fingers. Never had that happen before.

Dirk good point. I think the tension was about the same but I didn't check my tire pressure last night. I sort of started late and wanted to just get to it so may have been lower then what I normally have it. I am really thinking I just didn't push hard enough the first 10 minutes of the test. I'll try and redo the test next week with more attention to all the details and see how I do.

Jo63 - 2013-03-20 6:48 AM

DirkP - 2013-03-19 7:31 PM

Jo63 - 2013-03-19 6:43 AM  I ran 1 mile before hand to warm up then trained hard for an hr with him then ran another 4 miles, my second run was in zone 12 .......Except I wasn't breathing hard at all. So I got home had a protein drink and then was exhausted, I literally went to lay down, and could barely eat anything I tried to get down a salad but my stomach was saying no way. So my question is: I get that I should not of ran so hard HR wise, but if Iam not even breathing hard can I/should I push like I did?

Something isn't making sense to me.  If you weren't running all that hard it would seem to me that you wouldn't have had the type of reaction to the run that you are describing. 

However, the symptoms you are describing appear to be more related to the weight training.  I have many work outs with weights that have resulted in nausea and lack of appetite but these have been more related to a BP that was greatly elevated from the anaerobic effects of extreme weight training.  When this occurred to me I had been doing very high weights and very low reps with the sets close together (which is a bad idea for what I was doing).

What it appears might have occurred to you would be that you elevated your BP during the weight training and jumped right on the treadmill before you had an opportunity to allow your BP to regulate itself. 

1. Did you do a very fast circuit? 
2. How long from the time you stopped lifting until you got on the treadmill?
3. How was the pace and HR as compared to your normal runs?

Yes we did a fast circuit. It was Probably about 5 minutes from the time we stopped to the time we jumped on the treadmill My pace was little slower and my HR was higher my threashold is 164 and I averaged 166.... Ok so it wasn't zone 12 it just felt like it after I got home not during. Dirk I didn't feel sick during the circuit, as I sometimes do, and it never last as long as this did I guess that's why I was thinking I maybe pushed to hard during the run? I also have this issue during a hard training that when I get up from a ground or bent over position, I am very dizzy and lightheaded I almost always have to stop for a second I have been chalking this up to my thyroid, the Dr is having trouble getting me adjusted with this. Tony: could it be because you are getting stronger and you didn't push as hard as when you did your first 2, forgetting how much you had improved

Jo, this all sounds completely normal to me.  First of all, the lightheadedness....When you workout your blood vessels and arteries all relax to open up to flow more blood.  Upon stopping, even for a moment, your HR falls and that leaves the blood pressure too low.  You stand up quickly and your brain is momentarily starved of oxygen until the blood vessels quickly dialate again.

It's called syncopy.  It's also normal for endurance athletes because our HR can drop so stinking fast after an effort that the vessels don't keep up.  Happens to me after extremely hard rides (in the multi hour range).

Lifting weights will do exactly the same thing.

And about the heart rate...the strength training dramatically increased the muscle's need for oxygen even after you stopped (for recovery purposes) so your HR was upregulated to provide that extra oxygen.  Normally your body shunts blood away from the upper extremities and digestive tract while you run to maximize the amount of blood your legs can get, but after your whole-body workout it couldn't do that and so your heart beat faster to feed the other muscles it normally doesn't.

WARNING......DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU ARE HUNGRY!

Dirk....this means you! 

I had a crappy swim today.  I was tired so I just ended it.  I had a horrible sweet tooth, too!  We don't keep sweets in the house.  We make ourselves something if we want it.

I made apple crisp with some frozen home grown apple slices.  Yum!  Sure, I had to wait over an hour for my sweet treat!  It was worth it, though!  It would be really yummy with ice cream!

She's quite the catch.  No wonder you like her!