General Discussion Triathlon Talk » OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming. Rss Feed  
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2011-05-19 12:30 AM

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Subject: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.

So I swam as a kid. All the really fast guys did freestyle... so I did breaststroke and got quite fast at that. Flash forward 30 years...

I decide to do Tris, sign up with a coach at the gym. Former pro triathlete. Figure I'm good at swimming, was shown different. Take direction, make BIG improvements. I'm at a 6 minute 400 now w/o flip turns. I'm happy.

Look up some stuff on you tube.... and appearantly I'm doing a lot wrong! I know I'm not Phelps, I realize there are a lot of variations out there to suit different bodies... but watching Phelps and Thorpes stroke I'm not close. Reference...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm-vSqlWmgs

So my coach told me 90% of swimmers do not rotate enough... I've tried hard to get sidways.. lots of rotation, of corse that does not hold up going all out... but these guys stay relatively flat. The video specifically says to be carful and not over rotate... to be flat by the begining of the pull.

Now I have always had high elbows, so that is not a problem, but a lot of rotation has felt wierd with other stuff. I get my shoulder and elbow high, but I rotate my body. The point is the Masters coach and the Tri coach both said to rotate the whole body, drive with the hips. Yet these guys do not rotate hips. It sort of screws up my kicks too.

NEXT... what is the deal with crossover??? So from what I understand, I was doing it... coaches correct me. Tell me my arms need to be straight with where they are. Straight out from the shoulder. Think of my body as a canoe and that the orrs never go in the canoe... so keep my arms outside of my body. So I was actually crossing over (L. arm on right side of head).... but every swimmer I look at has their arm either enter directly in front of their head (not across), or to the side of the head at the most. 

And LAST... what is the deal with pressing the bouy??? I do the drills and can feel my hips rise. So I swim "down hill", look down, keep the back of my head just out of the water, try to keep my chest pressed and the hips up.... Then I see Thorpe keeping his face looking forward. Specifically say that stable head keeps from over rotating and blah blah...

So in my short time I can see a lot of variations to strokes. Hard to even begin to pick a "band wagon" to jump on. But how can you trust your instruction with such wildly contradictory instruction out there????



2011-05-19 6:53 AM
in reply to: #3507360

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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.

Disclaimer:  Not a coach or a pro ....  but thoughts anyways

1.  Phelps and Thorpe are swimming different races than you are.  I'm betting if they swam a 1500m race while they would still win but their stroke would be a little different.

2.  The head down thing is to keep your hips up.  When I started swimming with a coach my head was very down to get the body position correct.  As my form got better I could pick my head up a little and not lose it.  You're not going to see where you're going in a lake anyways so I'd say just swim what's comfortable as long as the body position is good.  I prefer my head up a little more than straight down.  But as you can see on youtube there's more than 1 way to skin a cat.

Again, just my thoughts..

2011-05-19 7:32 AM
in reply to: #3507360

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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.

1 - You are not Phelps and you never will be, so forget about watching what he or any other top swimmer does.

2 - One thing at a time.  Focus on one aspect of your swim at a time and spend at least 8-10 sessions working on it.  Then move on to another aspect.  It can take years to truly develope a "good" stroke/rotation/body position/etc.  IOW, you are trying to do too much too fast.

3 - 600 minute 400 is solid.  Improvements from this point will be fractional and take lots & lots & lots of time.

2011-05-19 7:44 AM
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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.
I only manage 300 in 6 minutes so I can't help much.  But since you have a coach you might as well try what he/she recommends.  If you don't agree then get a new coach.  One thing you'll learn here is that not everyone agrees on the best way to swim.  I think you need to do what works best for you.  You said that you were happy with your swim, most of us aren't so we try new things or continue to work on old things we haven't gotten right yet.  Lately I've been working on stroke length and that seems to be improving.  Yesterday I tried pushing my head down a little more than usual and I could feel my hips rise a bit, so I'll work on that for a while and see what happens.  And then....???
2011-05-19 8:18 AM
in reply to: #3507360

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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.

Yeah, I'd be pretty satisfied with a 6:00 400 as well.  It's early, and I'm no math major, but I think that comes out to 1:30 per 100.  Not bad in my book.

As for the stroke specifics, if you're confident in your coaches, I'd listen to what they have to say and not worry too much about the on-line videos.  Your coaches presumably know what they're doing.  They've seen you swim and are offering tips specific to your stroke.  That, in my mind, is worth far more than the YouTube instructions you're relying on. 

2011-05-19 8:21 AM
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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.
jamgam - 2011-05-19 5:53 AM

Disclaimer:  Not a coach or a pro ....  but thoughts anyways

1.  Phelps and Thorpe are swimming different races than you are.  I'm betting if they swam a 1500m race while they would still win but their stroke would be a little different.

2.  The head down thing is to keep your hips up.  When I started swimming with a coach my head was very down to get the body position correct.  As my form got better I could pick my head up a little and not lose it.  You're not going to see where you're going in a lake anyways so I'd say just swim what's comfortable as long as the body position is good.  I prefer my head up a little more than straight down.  But as you can see on youtube there's more than 1 way to skin a cat.

Again, just my thoughts..

Thanks. Number 2 makes sense. Right now I have not been concentrating on keeping hips up. I mean I try, but figured wet suit will help that aspect a bit so been working on others. I certainly tell a difference when I work on it.



2011-05-19 8:26 AM
in reply to: #3507555

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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.
bhc - 2011-05-19 8:32 AM

1 - You are not Phelps and you never will be, so forget about watching what he or any other top swimmer does.

I'd disagree to an extent.  You can learn a lot from watching the best.  I wouldn't necessarily try to emulate their stroke perfectly, what works for them may not work for you, but you can still pick up some good pointers here and there from their technique.  Like any other technique sport, such as golf, for example, you can learn a lot by watching the pros.  They all have different styles, but there are a lot of common points that you draw off of to better your own technique. 

Although, you also run the risk of doing something completely wrong by trying emulate them.  Just because you feel/think you are moving your body in the same manner they are, doesn't mean you actually are.

2011-05-19 8:29 AM
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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.
bhc - 2011-05-19 6:32 AM

2 - One thing at a time.  Focus on one aspect of your swim at a time and spend at least 8-10 sessions working on it.  Then move on to another aspect.  It can take years to truly develope a "good" stroke/rotation/body position/etc.  IOW, you are trying to do too much too fast.

3 - 600 minute 400 is solid.  Improvements from this point will be fractional and take lots & lots & lots of time.

Certainly not the first time I heard that. I'm not special or gifted, but I have always been at home in the water and can pick up stroke pretty easy. Right now I think I have the gross movements down to be "comfortable". It isn't "natural" yet and things can easily fall apart.

2011-05-19 8:31 AM
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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.

Sounds like you're overwhelming yourself with information.

Trust what instruction your coach tells you and follow that. You will muddy up your thinking and stroke by throwing in different elements from outside sources. There could be different circumstances as to why one top level swimmer swims the way they do compared to what you have been taught (body type is one, uniquely fast but odd/poor technique is another).

Listen to what you've been taught. For now, to clear your mind, shut out the rest of the noise. If you still have doubts about what your learning, find another coach.

2011-05-19 8:34 AM
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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.

blynott - 2011-05-19 6:44 AM I only manage 300 in 6 minutes so I can't help much.  But since you have a coach you might as well try what he/she recommends.  If you don't agree then get a new coach.  One thing you'll learn here is that not everyone agrees on the best way to swim.  I think you need to do what works best for you.  You said that you were happy with your swim, most of us aren't so we try new things or continue to work on old things we haven't gotten right yet.  Lately I've been working on stroke length and that seems to be improving.  Yesterday I tried pushing my head down a little more than usual and I could feel my hips rise a bit, so I'll work on that for a while and see what happens.  And then....???

I only had the coach for 8 weeks. Of course she is a professional coach, but selling the house has tied up money and the rest goes to gear and races.

That puts some perspective on it. Perhaps I'm not as lost as I thought. I have no doubt I have room for improvement, but I have just been working on getting comfortable, getting stronger, and getting the basics down. Probably have plenty to work on in the Winter and might look for a coach then.

2011-05-19 8:42 AM
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Subject: RE: OK... now I'm suddenly lost with my swimming.

OK... I'm a shift worker. I love nights, but recently got a day job. Had to cover nights this week and have had about 16 hours of sleep in the last three days because of house showings. Perhaps watching you tube at 3 in the morning is not the best idea

I just figured fast was the most efficient... but ya, different strokes for different folks. PLENTY of basics out there that are the same, and that is what I have been working on. Friel gives them, my coaches gave them, and plenty of other triathletes use them. So I will stop melting down and go to bed.



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