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Cross Fit Article in Triathlete (Page 9)
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 2011-01-23 9:26 AM in reply to: #3313684 |
New user  22 |  Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in TriathleteI've done three IMs in the last three years. LP08, LP09 and AZ10. For both LP IMs, I coached myself using the BeIronFit program and had good success. For Arizona this past year I knew I couldn't put in the time I had in the past due a new and way more demanding job and other life stresses. I worked with Max to prepare for Arizona using the CF/CFE. In addition to the CF workouts, I did plenty of s/b/r, but not as much as I've done in the past. It took some adjustment I will admit to go from long slow to short and intense. Most of my 2010 season was just working through this transition AND dealing with my busy work and personal life. But it got me to Arizona where I was able to achieve a 42 minute PR.
If I read this correctly, your 42 minute improvement is AZ compared to LP, is that correct? AZ is generally ranked below LP in "toughness" (average finish times, average splits, etc). Do you think you could put a percentage on how much of your improvement was due to course and race/weather conditions and how much was due to a new training protocol? I know that's a tough thing to quantify, but I've found the only thing that really works for me as an accurate gauge of improvement is to compare results from the same race year to year. Of course, I'd guess that 42 minutes is more than just a different course or better weather. ETA - you also posted a 37 minute improvement for LP in 09 over 08. Well done! The weather in AZ was not particularly ideal. It rained and hailed on the bike and there were significant wind gusts. My bike time was 6:17 versus 6:54 at LP. Riding a relatively flat course but dealing with high wind and bad weather render them fairly equivalent in my opinion (yes, we can start another debate around this AZ10 bike was pretty difficult. Yes its flat but that can be difficult. You are pedaling and down in the bars constantly which takes a toll on your body. Add in 30 mph gusts and hail and its a tough ride. The swim is one loop in very cold water. Harder to site on this swim course due to the weird curves of the "lake". The run is not that flat and lots of surface changes. I was able to do it with CE/CFE protocol. And I think I can leverage where that took me to get to a better place this season. I've done the training both ways. Either one can work. Working hard and being consistent is what gets you there. I enjoyed having more balance in my life with the CE/CFE protocol and I enjoyed achieving some new goals like stringing together 3-4 full pull ups in a row which is difficult for most females. Feel compelled to defend Max a bit here as I think some of you have put words in his mouth that aren't his.
Very interesting. How was your nutrition for the AZ10? I have heard many stories of those who have trained on CFE for an IM, but have had issues (dizziness, weak, etc) during their race due to not being adequately prepared for the long distance. |
| 2011-01-23 10:37 AM in reply to: #3316162 |
Master 1404   Saratoga Springs, Utah | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete kitkat724 - 2011-01-23 8:26 AM I've done three IMs in the last three years. LP08, LP09 and AZ10. For both LP IMs, I coached myself using the BeIronFit program and had good success. For Arizona this past year I knew I couldn't put in the time I had in the past due a new and way more demanding job and other life stresses. I worked with Max to prepare for Arizona using the CF/CFE. In addition to the CF workouts, I did plenty of s/b/r, but not as much as I've done in the past. It took some adjustment I will admit to go from long slow to short and intense. Most of my 2010 season was just working through this transition AND dealing with my busy work and personal life. But it got me to Arizona where I was able to achieve a 42 minute PR.
If I read this correctly, your 42 minute improvement is AZ compared to LP, is that correct? AZ is generally ranked below LP in "toughness" (average finish times, average splits, etc). Do you think you could put a percentage on how much of your improvement was due to course and race/weather conditions and how much was due to a new training protocol? I know that's a tough thing to quantify, but I've found the only thing that really works for me as an accurate gauge of improvement is to compare results from the same race year to year. Of course, I'd guess that 42 minutes is more than just a different course or better weather. ETA - you also posted a 37 minute improvement for LP in 09 over 08. Well done! The weather in AZ was not particularly ideal. It rained and hailed on the bike and there were significant wind gusts. My bike time was 6:17 versus 6:54 at LP. Riding a relatively flat course but dealing with high wind and bad weather render them fairly equivalent in my opinion (yes, we can start another debate around this :)). LP 08 was terrible weather. It rained heavily from start to finish and my bike was not operating properly. LP 09 showed improvement on the bike but most likely just due to my bike working properly and the weather being better. Had a great swim based on doing shorter, hi intensity swim workouts (per Max) rather than lots of long slow yardage. My run suffered due to higher humidity. AZ10 bike was pretty difficult. Yes its flat but that can be difficult. You are pedaling and down in the bars constantly which takes a toll on your body. Add in 30 mph gusts and hail and its a tough ride. The swim is one loop in very cold water. Harder to site on this swim course due to the weird curves of the "lake". The run is not that flat and lots of surface changes. I was able to do it with CE/CFE protocol. And I think I can leverage where that took me to get to a better place this season. I've done the training both ways. Either one can work. Working hard and being consistent is what gets you there. I enjoyed having more balance in my life with the CE/CFE protocol and I enjoyed achieving some new goals like stringing together 3-4 full pull ups in a row which is difficult for most females. Feel compelled to defend Max a bit here as I think some of you have put words in his mouth that aren't his.
Very interesting. How was your nutrition for the AZ10? I have heard many stories of those who have trained on CFE for an IM, but have had issues (dizziness, weak, etc) during their race due to not being adequately prepared for the long distance. Part of the improvement from LP to AZ is just from transitions, 10 minutes of it. LP takes a lot longer to transition from one sport to the other as compared to AZ. The bike and run courses at LP are harder and I would guess add ~20 minutes to your time even more if you burn your matches to soon on hills. IMO a 42 minute improvement at AZ is close to the same performace as LP but was done on less time commitment. But then again it is not always the miles that matter but where you put those miles in a program that makes a difference. Not trying to diminish anyones accomplishment, just has to be in perspective. Edited by gerald12 2011-01-23 10:40 AM |
| 2011-01-23 10:55 AM in reply to: #3312646 |
Champion 9600   Fountain Hills, AZ | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete stumfossil - 2011-01-20 10:06 PM Just read through this entire thread and have to say I'm pretty disgusted with how it turns so ugly. Of course its all the usual suspects spewing off at something they know little about — clearly too much time on your hands (as evidenced by some of your training logs).Many of the most incendiary posts in this thread seem to come from some folks who train very little and have acccomplished very little... just sayin' Arrogant? Takes one to know one based on this little gem I was responding to.  I understand it's very seductive to try and ascribe our success to specific aspects of our training, but more often that not, we get better just because we train consistently over time regardless if volume was more or less one year vs. another. Improvements are cumulative over time and less likely because we do the latest and greatest get fast quickly scheme. I'm sure CF is a perfectly fine conditioning protocol, but like any very specific training protocol, efforts to attribute it to an individuals success is nebulous at best. Edited by bryancd 2011-01-23 11:03 AM |
| 2011-01-24 6:29 AM in reply to: #3316237 |
New user 22 | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete gerald12 - 2011-01-23 11:37 AM kitkat724 - 2011-01-23 8:26 AM I've done three IMs in the last three years. LP08, LP09 and AZ10. For both LP IMs, I coached myself using the BeIronFit program and had good success. For Arizona this past year I knew I couldn't put in the time I had in the past due a new and way more demanding job and other life stresses. I worked with Max to prepare for Arizona using the CF/CFE. In addition to the CF workouts, I did plenty of s/b/r, but not as much as I've done in the past. It took some adjustment I will admit to go from long slow to short and intense. Most of my 2010 season was just working through this transition AND dealing with my busy work and personal life. But it got me to Arizona where I was able to achieve a 42 minute PR.
If I read this correctly, your 42 minute improvement is AZ compared to LP, is that correct? AZ is generally ranked below LP in "toughness" (average finish times, average splits, etc). Do you think you could put a percentage on how much of your improvement was due to course and race/weather conditions and how much was due to a new training protocol? I know that's a tough thing to quantify, but I've found the only thing that really works for me as an accurate gauge of improvement is to compare results from the same race year to year. Of course, I'd guess that 42 minutes is more than just a different course or better weather. ETA - you also posted a 37 minute improvement for LP in 09 over 08. Well done! The weather in AZ was not particularly ideal. It rained and hailed on the bike and there were significant wind gusts. My bike time was 6:17 versus 6:54 at LP. Riding a relatively flat course but dealing with high wind and bad weather render them fairly equivalent in my opinion (yes, we can start another debate around this AZ10 bike was pretty difficult. Yes its flat but that can be difficult. You are pedaling and down in the bars constantly which takes a toll on your body. Add in 30 mph gusts and hail and its a tough ride. The swim is one loop in very cold water. Harder to site on this swim course due to the weird curves of the "lake". The run is not that flat and lots of surface changes. I was able to do it with CE/CFE protocol. And I think I can leverage where that took me to get to a better place this season. I've done the training both ways. Either one can work. Working hard and being consistent is what gets you there. I enjoyed having more balance in my life with the CE/CFE protocol and I enjoyed achieving some new goals like stringing together 3-4 full pull ups in a row which is difficult for most females. Feel compelled to defend Max a bit here as I think some of you have put words in his mouth that aren't his.
Very interesting. How was your nutrition for the AZ10? I have heard many stories of those who have trained on CFE for an IM, but have had issues (dizziness, weak, etc) during their race due to not being adequately prepared for the long distance. Part of the improvement from LP to AZ is just from transitions, 10 minutes of it. LP takes a lot longer to transition from one sport to the other as compared to AZ. The bike and run courses at LP are harder and I would guess add ~20 minutes to your time even more if you burn your matches to soon on hills. IMO a 42 minute improvement at AZ is close to the same performace as LP but was done on less time commitment. But then again it is not always the miles that matter but where you put those miles in a program that makes a difference. Not trying to diminish anyones accomplishment, just has to be in perspective. Gerald- OOPS! I quoted/replied incorrectly. I was asking " Very interesting. How was your nutrition for the AZ10? I have heard many stories of those who have trained on CFE for an IM, but have had issues (dizziness, weak, etc) during their race due to not being adequately prepared for the long distance." I was asking a previous poster about their races. |
| 2011-01-24 6:38 AM in reply to: #3301021 |
Master 1343 Minneapolis, Minnesota | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete titeloops - 2011-01-15 7:25 AM Wait,wait,wait,,,,,ok, now I have popcorn, continue! Hee hee hee... ahem. I like the IDEA of crossfit, and a gym just opened next door to my office building. I need to build strength but I'm not sure I'm fit enough to not injure myself in there. I also detest loud pounding music so... probably not for me. But it LOOKS fun and kind of kick-arse. Anyway, everyone is different, if it works for you, fantastic. |
| 2011-01-24 8:26 AM in reply to: #3316110 |
Veteran 195 NAF Atsugi Japan,Medford OR. | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete gsmacleod - 2011-01-23 9:38 AM bryancd - 2011-01-22 10:18 PM The above data is meaningless to the discussion. Agreed; I trained less in 2010 than in several years and yet I was close to my fastest time in one race, a few minutes slower in another and actually had a new best time at my final race of the season. Without any context, one might be able to conclude that by training less I was able to race faster. Shane That goes against what so many people have said in here, IOW you have to put in your time and log miles and the "Less is more" training foundation doesn't work as well. Or could it be that once you have built a strong endurance foundation, you can scale and focus on quality over quantity? |
| 2011-01-24 8:40 AM in reply to: #3300644 |
Regular 73 | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete 11 pages with good points made on both sides I think. For me, I train for and race triathlons for 3 reasons: I love to 1.) swim 2.) bike 3.) run Why would I want to train in a way that limits my time from what it is that I love about this sport? |
| 2011-01-24 8:42 AM in reply to: #3300644 |
Master 3022 | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete I will give Pam (stumfossil) a bit of credit for maintaining her fitness with a big reduction in volume. I think it is difficult to say that the crossfit allowed her to improve her fitness but it certainly didn't hurt it in my mind (from the limited info available). I think what Jorge and others are saying is correct in the end. If you want to improve your S/B/R times then you need to S/B/R. I assume an argument could be made that CFE can be a part of a training plan for those with less overall time to train. But, I suspect that you would still be better served by not spending time doing CF exercises but doing workouts that involve S/B/R at higher intensities. Of course everyone is entitled to their own choices and I am confident that CFE or CF is very good for overall fitness. If it makes you happy then go for it. |
| 2011-01-24 8:43 AM in reply to: #3317646 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete thecatch83 - 2011-01-24 9:26 AM gsmacleod - 2011-01-23 9:38 AM bryancd - 2011-01-22 10:18 PM The above data is meaningless to the discussion. Agreed; I trained less in 2010 than in several years and yet I was close to my fastest time in one race, a few minutes slower in another and actually had a new best time at my final race of the season. Without any context, one might be able to conclude that by training less I was able to race faster. Shane That goes against what so many people have said in here, IOW you have to put in your time and log miles and the "Less is more" training foundation doesn't work as well. Or could it be that once you have built a strong endurance foundation, you can scale and focus on quality over quantity? Yes. It's a balance. Both sides taken to extremes are not as effective as a balanced approach. You need to have lots of easy volume, but you also need harder efforts. You can't ignore either aspect of training. One of the reasons I've noticed people suddenly find the "less is more" approach work so well is because they have never done higher intensity work. Heck, some people just don't know how to push out of their comfort zones without some external force. For people that have spent a year or more doing nothing but lots of easy workouts, they are definitely going to see significant improvements by incorporating harder stuff. Which is what many of us have been stating repeatedly. And it's why seeing numbers alone is useless. You need to have an overall picture of the efforts/paces involved in the training, you need to see a breakdown of workouts types, you need to see how many training sessions in a week, a month, a year, you need to see how the athlete has cycled through different types of training, where it was done, how it was measured. Volume alone is a small part of the story. |
| 2011-01-24 9:23 AM in reply to: #3317646 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete thecatch83 - 2011-01-24 10:26 AM Without any context, one might be able to conclude that by training less I was able to race faster. That goes against what so many people have said in here, IOW you have to put in your time and log miles and the "Less is more" training foundation doesn't work as well. Or could it be that once you have built a strong endurance foundation, you can scale and focus on quality over quantity? I've highlighted the key part of my post - without more information about how I trained in the years leading up to 2010, how I trained in 2010 and information about the races that I did, no meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Building fitness is about managing training load and training load is a function of volume, intensity and frequency. You can manipulate any of the variables to increase or decrease training load but athletes perform best when the frequency is high and and volume and intensity are manipulated daily to progressively overload the system. So instead of training hard every day, some days are hard, some days are easy but all have a role in building fitness. OTOH, training easy everyday is not the answer which is why you will see that the vast majority of posts have said that both volume and intensity are important and will allow an athlete to move closer to their potential. Shane |
| 2011-01-24 10:03 AM in reply to: #3317682 |
Master 1699 Malvern, PA | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete valpodad - 2011-01-24 9:40 AM 11 pages with good points made on both sides I think. For me, I train for and race triathlons for 3 reasons: I love to 1.) swim 2.) bike 3.) run Why would I want to train in a way that limits my time from what it is that I love about this sport? nicely said... and that pretty much sums it up! all this back and forth and really that's what it all comes down too... why would we want to s/b/r less? |
| 2011-01-24 11:05 AM in reply to: #3317443 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete stephsprint - 2011-01-24 6:38 AM titeloops - 2011-01-15 7:25 AM Wait,wait,wait,,,,,ok, now I have popcorn, continue! Hee hee hee... ahem. I like the IDEA of crossfit, and a gym just opened next door to my office building. I need to build strength but I'm not sure I'm fit enough to not injure myself in there. I also detest loud pounding music so... probably not for me. But it LOOKS fun and kind of kick-arse. Anyway, everyone is different, if it works for you, fantastic. Steph, if you have access to weights at home or at another gym just do the workouts on your own. If I'm in the mood to do a WOD I'll do it on my own because I don't like people yelling at me to "keep going" when I know that I need to take a break. |
| 2011-01-24 11:25 AM in reply to: #3300644 |
| New user 48 Cincinnati | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete i am a newbie, so consider that when i say...it took me longer to read this thread than to do my workout......wow....given my age (54) and being fat and being out-of-shape...I had to do strength training for 1 year to help build "muscles" (not body building) and lose 38 pounds just so i can now start to tri-train this year . I can now run and bike without pain and part of it is due to the strength training....i did not do CF for the strength training but if it works for you go do it.......heck I will probably do CF Endurance next year so i can TELL you how it went versus arguing over theories and speculation and old beliefs. Heck, this year I have had FIVE different swim coaches tell me "how to breath" and they were all different - who said there is agreement on how to train!!!!!!! |
| 2011-01-24 12:52 PM in reply to: #3300644 |
Expert 1743 Glen Burnie, Maryland | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete |
| 2011-01-24 3:28 PM in reply to: #3318151 |
| Elite 2608 Denver, Colorado | Subject: RE: Cross Fit Article in Triathlete jcrrankin - 2011-01-24 11:25 AM The harsh reality of the fitness industry is that there really isn't anything new under the sun. So, trainers and coaches resort to gimmicks to differentiate themselves from the competition. Doing a one-arm dumbbell press while standing on a wobble board looks hard and is hard. Thus, it must be better, right? I mean, look at all the muscles that have to stabilize your body! But the research suggests otherwise, and the reality is that recreational athletes, and I would say most elite and professional athletes, will get a better training effect using a slightly heavier dumbbell (you can't use much weight on an unstable surface) with their feet firmly on the ground. |
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