Two-beat kick timing question
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I was reading an article from "Swimming in a Nutshell" by Marty Gaal. In it he was describing how the entry of the hand at the beginning of the stroke cycle should be accompanied by a kick with the opposing leg. In my two-beat I'm pretty certain I've been kicking with the opposing leg as I'm "catching". I'm eager to try coach Gaal's method. For those of you that two-beat, others chime in too please, do you kick with the opposing leg as you're reaching and extending? Is this part of the missing link for me? Other links are missing too, but this seems significant. It also seems to me that it might be a position of weakness with no leverage?? I heard it described somewhere else that this is an often overlooked element in keeping the energy moving forward, in other words the act of propelling oneself forward with a timed kick and reach is just as important as the catch. Or do I have this all wrong - again! I consider myself a weak swimmer, and with an IM on the books this year, I would really appreciate some insight into this... jm out |
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![]() | ![]() I think kicking on the catch is too late. I kick about the time my opposite hand reaches the water. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I think about it more in terms of where my same-side hand is in the stroke. (Of course, that's correlated to an extent with where the recovering hand is.) I try to time the kick so that it happens when I'm in the powerful part of my stroke ('powerful' for weakling me, that is) Anyway, that's what I've been told to do, and it seems to be working. |
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Member![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I was reading an article from "Swimming in a Nutshell" by Marty Gaal. In it he was describing how the entry of the hand at the beginning of the stroke cycle should be accompanied by a kick with the opposing leg. My two beat is like that ^^^^^. I've always swum with a two beat kick from the beginning. That's how I really learned how to swim which was in the ocean. I'm not sure if that's correct way but to me it feels natural and I feel the glide also. When you kick from the opposite side your body should roll to the arm that's reaching and to me my body feels streamlined. I think if you do it the other way the body will be twisted or something. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I'm not a proponent of the two beat kick. But to do it, think about opposing forces to balance a body on the surface of the water. Draw a line through the middle of the body from head to toe and a line that bisects the body around the area of the waist. This establishes four quadrants. The arms pull in the two upper quadrants left and right, and the feet kick in the lower quadrants left and right. To maintain balance in the water, if the left arm is providing a rotational torque in the upper left quadrant then the right leg needs to create a rotational torque in the lower right quadrant. The relationship between the upper right quadrant and lower left quadrant is the same. Edited by MadMathemagician 2011-03-09 7:21 PM |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() In essence, kicking in a two-beat kick provides leverage for rotation, which sets up the entry. You could argue that the kick precedes the entry of the opposite hand, but in my experience, it's pretty subtle. However, the kick definitely should be happening before the catch with the opposite hand...it basically follows right onto the pull with the same-side hand, creating rotation to drive the entry (then the reach and catch) with the opposite hand...intuitively for me, I feel the kick initiating the drive forward with the opposing hand, with the next kick (other leg) starting the next sequence with the pull. I use a two-beat kick consistently and that's certainly both what I learned and what works for me...I'm not the fastest swimmer around, but definitely comfortable with the two beat form when executed like this. Might be instructive to do a comparison in terms of rotation and reach with and without a pull buoy to see the effect of the kick. As far as power goes, I'm pretty sure I've read (reputable source) that even for world class swimmers, the kick provides something like 10% of forward propulsion. It is arguably more critical for position and rotation than for the propulsion it provides. |
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Champion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I've been following the Finding Freestyle program and I've learned a lot about kicking. Poking around on the website you can learn a lot more. It is great program to explore kicking and let your body figure out how to make it efficient. |
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Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tcovert - 2011-03-09 6:24 PM In essence, kicking in a two-beat kick provides leverage for rotation, which sets up the entry. x 2 Rather than thinking about kicking as a front half/back half adventure (arms that pull, legs that kick & push), think about swimming as a right half/left half activity. The kick helps initiate rotation which moves the body from one edge to the opposite edge (right edge to left edge). tons more that could be written on this. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Like Suzanne said, it's not opposing forces. Your not trying to cancel your actions out by having an opposing force. The kick initiates the rotation. So when your leg is rotated the furthest (i.e. your bottom leg) it kicks about the time you begin to pull on that same side. The result is that you rotate to the other side. http://badig.com/2009/06/the-two-beat-kick/
Good luck. It's kinda tricky to learn. |
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Member![]() ![]() | ![]() I know next to nothing about swimming but I like this video of the two beat kick. www.swimtypes.com/swinger scroll down to Shell Taylor Smith. |
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Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tjfry - 2011-03-09 6:59 PM Like Suzanne said, it's not opposing forces. Your not trying to cancel your actions out by having an opposing force. The kick initiates the rotation. So when your leg is rotated the furthest (i.e. your bottom leg) it kicks about the time you begin to pull on that same side. The result is that you rotate to the other side. http://badig.com/2009/06/the-two-beat-kick/
Good luck. It's kinda tricky to learn. TJ, I followed the link in your article to this article: http://badig.com/2009/02/improving-your-flutter-kick/ And studied those 3 pics at the beginning. While I do use a 2BK, I'm aware that I get lazy and don't use it as effectively as I coudl in terms of connecting my rotatoin with the kick...Frequently I'll just nudge or loosly let my body rotate as I kick. Today I used the image in my mind from those 3 pics to incorprate into the actual kick...and it felt awesome. Some of the nicest, cleanest smoothest swimming I've done ot this point. I've made a lot of little changes and improvements and the image of your kick will be one I'll come back to frequently. It was a shade more tiring than my usual 2BK, but I'm curious to time myself in 100 & 500 yd TT and see if it makes a significant improvement. Thanks. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Some good info here! It's obvious to me now that I've been fighting with myself underwater! Tj's video, and the Swimsmooth video of Shell Taylor-Smith really drove it home that my timing is off. I am looking forward to my swim tonight and working on this technique. My current two-beat kick timing is so ingrained (sp?) in me that it's going to take some concentration to break it. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() My experience with 2BK - both teaching it to 100s of students, and practicing/improving it with one (me) - is that it can take up to 3 steps to learn, then imprint, a highly effective 2BK. I've been a 'natural' 2-beater since I began competing in HS in 1965 (attempts to use a 6-beat felt discombobulated and made my legs feel rubbery within 30 sec), but my experience was always that it didn't seem to help much, yet made my legs tired late in races. It wasn't until my early 40s that I solved the tiring-legs problem - by learning balance. And I didn't solve the not-much-help problem until my mid-50s - by improving lateral stability and learning to coordinate leg beats with a Tempo Trainer. Two weeks short of 60 I still feel I'm improving it. How do I define a highly effective 2BK? One you can use with virtually no energy or power output to sustain a tireless pace for any distance -- including in my case up to 40k or 25 miles. Or you can use it to considerably increase your pace by applying integrated power. I've used the former approach to 1) swim longer pool repeats or series 2) or the earlier portions of descending pool repeats - i.e. start the series easy and finish faster. 3) swim some portion of longer pool or OW races - e.g. first 1000 of a 1500 pool race or first 2k of a 3k OW race race. 4) Any pool or OW practice where I'm particularly focused on improving balance. I've used the latter approach to: 1) Swim a relatively quick 100 yds or meters, either in a Masters race or in the closing stages of a longer race - pool or OW. (For a 50-yd race I'll switch to 6-beat). 2) To swim an even shorter (25 or 50-yd) max pace repeat in training. 3) By dialing down the power I can use it for a longer race - say 500-1000 yds in the pool, or a mile in open water. Integrated power means the work of the kick is done primarily by more powerful and fatigue resistant core muscles, and only secondarily by fatigue-prone thigh muscles. The three steps: 1) Calm 'busy' legs by improving fore-aft balance. This reduces turbulence, energy expenditure and increases comfort. 2) Streamline legs that tend to splay by improving lateral stability. This reduces drag and power output. 3) Learn to coordinate kick with weight shift. I coordinated in three ways 1) Synchronize downbeat (which I think of as a toe-flick to avoid overdoing it) to opposite hand spear. 2) Synch downbeat to same leg mid-pull. 3) Synch downbeat to tempo trainer beeps. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Edited by Dave Luscan 2011-03-11 2:11 PM |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() I'm MOP/BOP swimmer whose fav DVD is TI's "Easy Freestyle". Despite very limited pool time this yr, focus on Terry's 'coordination way' #2 improved my typical 400M swim time by ~30 sec vs last Spring (8:10 vs 8:40). My 2bt kick was badly mis-timed. Coordinating kick to early/mid pull seems to have helped my balance significantly, resulting in better streamline & speed with lower overall effort. But still working on more fully engaging those core muscles. Check out ~0:50-1:10 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJpFVvho0o4 Or early in this clip of Phelps http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_M7P_jmgBE&feature=related Edited by Oldteen 2011-03-11 2:32 PM |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() focus on Terry's 'coordination way' #2 improved my typical 400M swim time by ~30 sec vs last Spring (8:10 vs 8:40). I mistyped in coordination key #2. Meant to write Coordinate toe-flick with same ARM mid-pull. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Total Immersion - 2011-03-11 5:47 PM focus on Terry's 'coordination way' #2 improved my typical 400M swim time by ~30 sec vs last Spring (8:10 vs 8:40). I mistyped in coordination key #2. Meant to write Coordinate toe-flick with same ARM mid-pull.No worries. Knew what you meant. Thanks again for all your insightful comments. |
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Coach ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() THe first 45 seconds of this video discusses the timing of the hip drive...the 2 beat kick timign can be clearly seen. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnrSr9tYCko |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Swimming is becoming the new golf swing for me!! I'm challenged by the technical aspect of it, but love it! I went for my swim the other night, and was disappointed to learn that my kick timing isn't as bad as I thought. For some reason sitting on the couch I pictured my kick out of whack! I was hoping for a huge break through. The missing link so to speak! Looking at some of these videos I see that while my timing appears close, there are some finer points to consider. I'm getting tired (literally) of powering my way through the water! I have big plans to break through my 2:00/100 metre!! |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Hope you will see this TJ, or someone who can help. I watched TJ's video on how to do the 2 beat kick and thought, ok that's easy, but actually doing it is a lot harder than I thought. I'm am uncordinated, the kind of person that can't carry a tune, or even dance lol. Currently I basically have no kick, sure my legs move, but thats just it. I tried applying the 2 beat kick and found it difficult, my legs ride high in the water which is a good thing, but when I would kick my feet would come out of the water and make a splash. I think I need to kick more from the hips and less from the knee. Another thing is on the timing, after a couple strokes I would be off and my kick would be more towards the end of the pull. Before I started I would say my kick, or rather, my leg movement since I really didn't have a kick was actually 100% opposite of your video. Long post short, I hope, any tips or ideas to try. Any drills? I'm not a drill person but would do them for this, but even a drill I'm not sure there are any for the timing issue, sure i could do kick drills to solve the kicking from the knees problem, but I think the biggest problem is timing. Hard to relearn something you've been doing the wrong way for 25 years though lol. |
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Elite ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Suzanne mentioned this above but I will repost the link. I had watched the videos, read a bunch of descriptions but I just couldn't "get it". Then I looked at the pictures and descriptions here and suddenly it made sense and I can now do a two beat kick for more than about 5 strokes. Good luck with it!
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() tjfry - 2011-03-09 5:59 PM Like Suzanne said, it's not opposing forces. Your not trying to cancel your actions out by having an opposing force. The kick initiates the rotation. So when your leg is rotated the furthest (i.e. your bottom leg) it kicks about the time you begin to pull on that same side. The result is that you rotate to the other side. http://badig.com/2009/06/the-two-beat-kick/
Good luck. It's kinda tricky to learn. Thanks for the great video, TJ. It's helped a ton with my timing! I've been using a 'random' 6-beat kick without purpose but this helps me keep my whole body in sync and I feel much more powerful in my swim. |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Glad I could help! |
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Expert ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() cstoulil - 2011-03-23 10:53 AM Hope you will see this TJ, or someone who can help. I watched TJ's video on how to do the 2 beat kick and thought, ok that's easy, but actually doing it is a lot harder than I thought. I'm am uncordinated, the kind of person that can't carry a tune, or even dance lol. Currently I basically have no kick, sure my legs move, but thats just it. I tried applying the 2 beat kick and found it difficult, my legs ride high in the water which is a good thing, but when I would kick my feet would come out of the water and make a splash. I think I need to kick more from the hips and less from the knee. Another thing is on the timing, after a couple strokes I would be off and my kick would be more towards the end of the pull. Before I started I would say my kick, or rather, my leg movement since I really didn't have a kick was actually 100% opposite of your video. Long post short, I hope, any tips or ideas to try. Any drills? I'm not a drill person but would do them for this, but even a drill I'm not sure there are any for the timing issue, sure i could do kick drills to solve the kicking from the knees problem, but I think the biggest problem is timing. Hard to relearn something you've been doing the wrong way for 25 years though lol. I wish I had a simple, clear answer for you. The fact that your feet come way out of the water tells me that you are swimming a bit flat. rotate a bit more so that the bottom foot is the one that kicks. As to timing, I wish I knew of a good drill that forced a 2 beat, but there isnt' that I know of. try kicking with fins and a pull buoy. Sounds weird but it will give your body the proper position (which is why most triathletes kick so much) and allow you to emphasize excatly when to kick. And with the fins you will really notice each kick. Then drop the buoy and keep the fins. If that works then lose the fins. If none of this works then try and find some spots in your stroke to use as a trigger, i.e. as soon as my hand gets to X then I kick. Hope this helps. Like I said, getting the timing down isn't all that easy. Good Luck. |
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Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() 2BK is difficult to target with drills, since most drills sort of encourage steady kicking. You really sort of need the rhythm/momentum of whole-stroke swimming to maintain the non-fatiguing,yet propulsive, kick you're seeking with the 2B. Here's one way we teach it in Total Immersion: Start with Superman Glide. Repeat several times for a short distance. Don't kick. Streamline legs instead. When you lose momentum or body position, stand up for a breather. While gliding focus on the sense of gliding *Without Needing to Kick." Segue from gliding only to gliding briefly then stroking 4 or 5 times. Maintain that sense of *Not Needing to Kick* even if briefly. Add strokes if you keep that feeling. Don't add if you feel you need to kick. Repeat 6 to 8 times. Then try a few 25s and see if you have a more relaxed, quiet and streamliined leg action. Reducing your need to kick -- by improving Balance - is the first step and likely more beneficial to most triathletes (considering that you often race with a wetsuit) than spending time TRYING to kick, even if it's a 2-Beat. I do focus on kicking, but (1) I don't wear a wetsuit while racing and (2) I don't have to bike or run after I swim. Edited by Total Immersion 2011-03-23 9:10 PM |
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