General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Runner's knee? Rss Feed  
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2008-12-18 2:38 PM

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Subject: Runner's knee?

Hi, All. I'm wondering if anyone out there can share their experiences with runner's knee/chondromalacia patella.  Has anyone found a good remedy or series of exercises that helped them recover from it?  What changes did you make or activities did you do in PT?  What worked, what didn't? Did you stop running altogether while working out the issues or did you keep running lighter mileage?

I've been trying to work through ankle (I'm a big over-pronator) and knee stability issues that I think are both contributing to runner's knee (I get pain directly under the knee cap with longer runs and crunching when climbing stairs), but every time I go through PT it seems like months with only minor progress.  In fact, the biggest success I've had has been with yoga AFTER my PT was over.

I'm still going to give PT another shot (no luck with confident recommendations yet) but in the meantime, I'd be curious to hear others' experiences.

-r4b



2008-12-18 5:22 PM
in reply to: #1861755

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Modesto, California
Subject: RE: Runner's knee?

To help with knee flareups I would Ice immediately after,and wear knee wraps for compression overnight to help heal, if it got real bad I would get out the motrin.

I do not have a strong running background so I had to work up my milage very slowly, mostly a jog and walk routine for about two years. I cannot tell you how many times I would have to take a week off and start all over, the time off actually helped, each time I got a little stronger. I ran mostly when it was uncomfortable, I stopped and walked anytime it became painful(this was a bunch). I knew that I needed to gain run specific strength in my legs, so every time I ran I strived to improve my form and go just a little further and faster.

Things that helped along the way, switch surfaces you run on frequently,get two pairs of shoes that you love and switch them out during your weekly runs, loosing weight helps, have a plan and goals, do two runs a week and build up distance and days from that. Start with a run/walk program, there is plenty to choose from and try to stick with it, it gets better with consistancy and tons of patience!

2008-12-22 7:45 PM
in reply to: #1861755

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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?
I've battled kneecap problems alot.  Advil, ice, rest...all that stuff.  For the long term though, i found the more I cycled, the stronger my surrounding muscles became and that in turn helped with the running.  Until just recently I was pain-free.  But I trained for a marathon and stopped cycling altogether and now I'm having the knee issues again. 
2008-12-22 10:05 PM
in reply to: #1861755

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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?

GOt diagnosed with runners knee a little over a year ago... things that have worked for me to get it and keep it under control:

1 - rest and only do exercise that does not aggravate the knee initially - ice ice ice and tapping the knee cap

2 - Got fitted with custom orthotics and I was very concervative with breaking them in - use them for all flat and wo0rkout shoes

3 - Changed my bike cleats to Look Keo Reds instead of greys as they allow more float

4 - Strength work for my underlying muscle imbalances - in my case my glutes in particular.

5 - Sports massage initially and now regular stretching as I get over tight calves and archilles in particular which is messing up my biomechanics

6 - Working to re-learn how to run - all of the above issues have resulted in poor running biomechanics which were causing the runners knee. By first treating all the issues i then moved on to working on running to start from scratch. Step one was walking properly with a balanced action and mid to heel landing instead of walking on and running on my toes which is what i was doing... now Im working on learning to run little by little with small durations of pickups which will build up to longer sessions... 

Basically its been a combination of factors for me driven by the initial information aod work with a great physio. 

 

Best of luck

Cat

2008-12-23 8:01 PM
in reply to: #1861755

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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?
The reason that yoga helped with your knee is that it seems to focus a lot on hip flexibility and stability. As triathletes we tend to put a lot of pressure on our hip flexors while biking and running. When the hip flexors get too tight, the whole pelvis rotates anteriorly. This causes the knees to adduct inwards and the ankles to pronate. It can even cause your head to go forward a bit and put pressure on the shoulders. Doing Yoga helped balance those hips and in turn helped your knees. I love PT's but they have a tendancy to focus on the joint that is the problem instead of the cause of why the joint has the problem. Usually the problem is not the joint itself, but an imbalance in the muscles and/or joints above and/or below.

Keep up the Yoga. Get a foam roller and start using it daily. Start doing some hip exercises other than hip flexor ones. Generally, but not always, the culprit weak muscles are the glute maximus and glute medius.
2008-12-24 10:17 AM
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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?

Thanks for the input, everybody!

I'm surprised that I've got two votes for the glutes-- I honestly never thought that they would be a part of my imbalance, but being that I never think to include them in my strength training and it's a novel approach for me, I think I'll give that a shot.  In addition, working on stretch and strengthening hip flexors and hams seems like that could help-- they have always been superduper tight, mostly the hip flexors.  (Warrior poses kill me after a while!)

I have one pair of custom insoles, but they seem far too expensive to have for ALL my shoes!  I have a pair of stability sneaks that are pretty supportive, but I can't wear those outside in the winter... maybe I'll see if my insoles also fit in my winter trainers.

More cycling is probably a good idea - it's my least favorite discipline at the moment so I tend to do much less of it, but it's prob because I still don't have the best muscle base for it.  I'm a super newbie and still don't have proper bike shoes - can you explain the difference between your old an new ones?... I'm not sure what about them gives you more float.

I've also been interested in trying taping before a run - any good resources on How-to?  I wouldn't know where to begin! 

 



2008-12-24 8:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?
Ork on your quad strength..stick with PT....you could try seeing Dr. Martha Murray..she is with harvard and is a sports trained ortho.  VERY VERY smart lady
2009-01-01 6:25 AM
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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?
  1. Stretching hamstrings and quadriceps.
  2. Ice after working out.
  3. Cross training on elliptical trainer to strengthen muscles surrounding the knee and stabilize the kneecap with low impact.
  4. Possibly get orthotics for your running shoes to improve alignment of your foot strike.
I've had runners knee for years.  I found elliptical training to be very helpful.
2009-01-05 8:20 AM
in reply to: #1871729

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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?

Socks - 2008-12-24 9:53 PM Ork on your quad strength..stick with PT....you could try seeing Dr. Martha Murray..she is with harvard and is a sports trained ortho.  VERY VERY smart lady

Thanks for the recommendation, Susan.  Have you had a good experience with Dr. Murray?  I need to get a new script for PT now that my office health plan just changed, but looking for someone who comes recommended and has experience with sport injury.  The first PT I went to was useless and the most recent was only marginally helpful.

2009-01-13 7:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?
I'm glad I did a search and found this thread.  I have suddenly begun experiencing tenderness in my kneecaps, BUT for me I only feel it after I cycle!!  Very strange.  However, let me add that I have increased my running miles recently as I prep for my first HIM.  (Don't know if that contributes or not.)  I have never had knee issues before and I have been cycling for years.  Is this still runner's knee?
2009-01-13 8:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?

kpar - 2009-01-13 8:55 AM I'm glad I did a search and found this thread.  I have suddenly begun experiencing tenderness in my kneecaps, BUT for me I only feel it after I cycle!!  Very strange.  However, let me add that I have increased my running miles recently as I prep for my first HIM.  (Don't know if that contributes or not.)  I have never had knee issues before and I have been cycling for years.  Is this still runner's knee?
Hey, Kpar - I'm actually finding that cycling is helping build up the muscles that support my knee cap and related structures (from glutes to calves) and the more I cycle, the less pounding the pavement effects my knees.  That is, once I realized my bike seat was too low and my cycling form was cruddy! 

You have increased your running miles, but have you increased your stretching as well?  I've always felt like I could get away with swiming and biking and walking as much as I liked without stretching, but once I got lazy with stretching when I started running I got myself into all kinds of trouble.

I'm no doc and I started this thread because of my own pains I'm having difficulty with - so take it with a grain of salt- , but I would have to say that "runner's knee" or patellofemoral syndrome could very well be what you're experiencing if it's pain under your knee caps.  It doesn't matter that you only feel it after cycling, and it could well be the increase in running miles that contributed to it.  After workouts, see if you can pinpoint the pain - above the kneecap it could be a tendonitis of the patellar tendon, to the medial or lateral knee cap something else.

Regardless of what it is -My suggestions: check your form, schedule more time stretching for everything from your hip flexors to your calves every time you run, double check your bike fit if you haven't done it recently, read up on patellofemoral syndrome and chondromalacia patella (when that pain leads to grinding of the underside of the patella) so you get an idea of what could be going on in those areas and some strenghening exercises that can help (or to get an idea if it is really something else going on), and a neoprene knee brace to help guide the patella into proper tracking- some folks say this works, others find no success from it, but it's a cheap easy thing so easy to try so worth it if it does anything.  There are definitely other great suggestions in the rest of this thread, too.  BT folks rock!

 

 



2009-01-18 6:09 PM
in reply to: #1904102

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Subject: RE: Runner's knee?
One comment about biking.  If you are having knee problems, try to keep a high cadence and avoid "mashing" in a high gear.  A higher cadence in a lower gear puts much less pressure on the knee.
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