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Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions....
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| General Discussion | Triathlon Talk » Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... | Rss Feed  |
 2009-08-07 9:43 PM |
Master 1963    |  Subject: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions....So this is something has perplexed me for a little. I definitely ignored to a large extent the "intensity" portion of my planning. I think I would go out too hard too often during training. I am trying to learn and train with HR. Question 1: So first off, I'm off to do a threshold test to calculate my zones. I understand that part. Next, I am looking into setting up my plan. So if a plan calls for say a Z4 run. I get that I want my Avg. HR for the run to fall in my Z4 range but what am I supposed to be looking for in terms of standard deviation? Do I want my HR to be relatively flat (after warm-up), in other words a flatter curve. Or do I want my HR to constantly build throughout such that at the end I might be somewhere in Zone 5 but on average I am staying Z4? Question 2: Another question. I don't have a power meter but am looking to calculate an intensity factor IF for my workouts on the bike and the run. WKO+ calculates IF's based on on FTP. From what I understand it calculates the RUN IF on FTP where "P" is pace and on the bike it calculates BIKE IF where "P" is power. Can I calculate a rough IF for both bike and run using my HR as an indicator. I would also like to derive some form of a TSS. I understand how important power is in the equation versus straight HR (hot weather, fatigue, stress, etc, etc) but I figure if I use a consistent calculation (perhaps factor in my RHR that morning) I can get some form of intensity measurement out of my data, even if not perfect. Anyone? p.s. JorgeM, I know you love intensity! Help me out  |
| 2009-08-07 10:15 PM in reply to: #2335349 |
Master 1826 | Subject: RE: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... #1 Most run workouts with say something like 10 min w/up 3x 5min Z4, Z2 recovery or the like.. Don't worry about std deviation etc.. just get your HR to Z4 for the interval.. as you run you will have cardiac drift.. lower paces will have higher HRs #2 The ideas of TSS on the bike are modeled on a HR based model called TRIMPS (Training Impulse Score or something like that) .. If you want to do training based on a TSS/CTL/ATL a good resource in SportsTracks combined with the Training Load plugin . It will use your HR zones for the run and your zones for the bike to create a TSS for each of the workouts.. the plugin has info to display your ATL/CTL much like WKO+.. and in my opinion a little better for including both run and bike. (all this is assuming you have a HR monitor like a forerunner that u can download the data). |
| 2009-08-07 10:17 PM in reply to: #2335385 |
| Master 1963 | Subject: RE: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... Thanks very much for the reply. I use a Forerunner 305. I download all the data all the time. I just downloaded the sporttracks pluggin, I need to try it. I know what you're talking about with the drift. I did intervals today with the garmin and I had a hard time getting my HR up and down in time, I need to lengthen the intervals I think. |
| 2009-08-07 10:20 PM in reply to: #2335386 |
Master 1826 | Subject: RE: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... merlin2375 - 2009-08-07 11:17 PM Thanks very much for the reply. I use a Forerunner 305. I download all the data all the time. I just downloaded the sporttracks pluggin, I need to try it. I know what you're talking about with the drift. I did intervals today with the garmin and I had a hard time getting my HR up and down in time, I need to lengthen the intervals I think. HR coming down after a hard effort is also tied to overall aerobic fitness. At least for me.. the fitter I got the faster the recovery (HR returning to Z2 for example).. also you may surprised by the pace you may have to run to drop the HR
FYI.. The plugin is only useful once you have the proper zones in sports tracks for run and bike Edited by FeltonR.Nubbinsworth 2009-08-07 10:20 PM |
| 2009-08-07 11:20 PM in reply to: #2335349 |
Champion 7595   Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... I agree with the others. I'll add (on the SD question) that once I've hit the zone, if I'm doing well, HR fluctuates by only a few bpm (unless there is a major hill). For example, if I'm supposed to do 20 minutes warmup followed by 30 minutes at a specified zone, it may take me a few minutes at that zone for the HR to settle into a consistent number, but once it does, it stays pretty constant (plus or minus just a few bpm, if I'm doing well), though I do still have to monitor constantly to achieve that result. (I've only been at this for a year.) I do find it difficult to bring HR back down after a long hard run; this requires seriously slowing the pace. |
| 2009-08-07 11:47 PM in reply to: #2335349 |
| New user 3 | Subject: RE: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... This is more of an additional question that I would like to throw into the thread, so I hope you no one minds. I'm kind of a rookie when it comes to training with a HR monitor and I've found that it's really hard to stick with. The main reason that I'm finding this hard to work with is because my HR zones seem really low compared to my perceived effort. Here's and example, if according to my training program I'm supposed to do some base runs in the Z2 and Z3 range it is practically impossible, since I can be at a brisk walk and be in Z2 and Z3. Now granted, I'm not a professional athlete, but I think that I'm in decent enough shape that I should be able to run under at 10 min pace in Z3, but according to my HR this is not possible. When I'm in Z2 and Z3 I feel like I'm not even breaking a sweat and I could go forever (probably because I could walk as fast as I'm running). When I was training last year this bothered me so much that I actually went and had a Dr. test my LTH and VOX to create my zones. They were right about where a typical 31 year old male would be. Nothing out of the ordinary. Any ideas on how I can fix this? I don't think I'll ever be able to be competitive in my age group until I get this figured out. It's kind of frustrating. |
| 2009-08-08 8:21 AM in reply to: #2335349 |
Champion 7558 Albuquerque, New Mexico | Subject: RE: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... Answer to question 1: If the plan calls for X time in Z4, then warm-up and spend X time in Z4. Don't worry too much if it varies within the Z4 band, but you should try to keep it in that band, not sagging into Z3 and not getting into Z5. If that means you have to slow down to stay out of Z5, slow down. |
| 2009-08-10 9:20 AM in reply to: #2335349 |
| Master 1963 | Subject: RE: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... Thanks very much for your help guys. I've read all of them, now going through to read them again |
| 2009-08-10 10:02 AM in reply to: #2335349 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Avg vs Standard deviation HR? Intensity? Training with HR questions.... Question 1: So first off, I'm off to do a threshold test to calculate my zones. I understand that part. Next, I am looking into setting up my plan. So if a plan calls for say a Z4 run. I get that I want my Avg. HR for the run to fall in my Z4 range but what am I supposed to be looking for in terms of standard deviation? Do I want my HR to be relatively flat (after warm-up), in other words a flatter curve. Or do I want my HR to constantly build throughout such that at the end I might be somewhere in Zone 5 but on average I am staying Z4? >>> Doing training intensity @ treshold sets or higher with a HR monitor can be tricky due to the fact that HR lags behind, it doesn't remain constant while you train (it tends to creep up the more you exert yourself in a session) and it can be affected by other variables hence you can either do those sets via RPE primarily or better yet, since you have a garmin do run training by pace! Do a short 20mi run test, get your avg pace, use the Daniel's VDOT calculator or other to define training paces and voila, you know what pace to hold when doing easy log runs, or short threshold runs. It is like training with power for the run and there is no much guessing! Question 2: Another question. I don't have a power meter but am looking to calculate an intensity factor IF for my workouts on the bike and the run. WKO+ calculates IF's based on on FTP. From what I understand it calculates the RUN IF on FTP where "P" is pace and on the bike it calculates BIKE IF where "P" is power. Can I calculate a rough IF for both bike and run using my HR as an indicator. I would also like to derive some form of a TSS. I understand how important power is in the equation versus straight HR (hot weather, fatigue, stress, etc, etc) but I figure if I use a consistent calculation (perhaps factor in my RHR that morning) I can get some form of intensity measurement out of my data, even if not perfect. >>> Yes you can use Dr Banister TRIMPS model to calculate a score for your training: TRIMPS = duration * AHR * a HR dependant intensity based weighting factor. You can do a Google search to learn more abour that though I would also consider using RaceDay a software by Philip Skiba which allows you quantify your training load using a power meter, HR, TRIMPS, RPE or GPS. In your case you could use your garmin to get a running load score and your HR using TRIMPS to get a score and based on that learn how much is too much for you. You can read more about race day and some of the stuff it calculates below: http://www.physfarm.com/bikescore.pdf http://www.physfarm.com/swimscore.pdf http://www.physfarm.com/inside/articles_training_govss.html http://www.physfarm.com/inside/raceday.html |
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