General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim Myth #9.....busted. Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
Show Per page
 
 
of 2
 
 
2010-06-16 11:05 PM
in reply to: #2926671

User image

Master
3858
200010005001001001002525
Overland Park, KS
Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
I have done the drill where I have one arm extended in front and one on my side.   I kick must faster in that position than with the kickboard.  I probably do have my head up/body down and most likely the board is sticking up out of the water.  I'll pay more attention in the next masters session and ask others to observe.

Thanks to all for your suggestions.


2010-06-17 8:07 AM
in reply to: #2926666

User image

Champion
5376
5000100100100252525
PA
Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
Fastyellow - 2010-06-16 6:52 PM

Just out of curiosity, are you guys kicking with the board breaking the surface...kind of like a boogie board? That can slow you down a ton.

Try depressing the board so that it is about 6"-1' below the surface and flat with a head down position....much more streamline....

Also keep in mind, kicking backstroke with NO BOARD offers much less resistance. Are you guys faster or slower if you do the same drill...ie, both drills in streamline with no board...that would be the true test.


YES!!!  I tried to mix in some kicking last night and gave up when it was taking so long just to get down the lane.  I was trying to just barely hold the board so I could put my face in the water.  I will try it as he is doing in the video below. 
Thank you!
2010-06-17 9:16 AM
in reply to: #2926587

Veteran
277
100100252525
Syracuse, NY
Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
triosaurus - 2010-06-16 5:14 PM

steves_training - 2010-06-16 6:15 AM
reecealan - 2010-06-15 11:07 PM my backstroke kick was faster than my freestyle kick with kickboard. 
It's probably because of your body position. Try getting rid of the kickboard and putting your face in the water. Better yet, try the one arm balance drills where you kick on your side with one arm extended, and work on your body position while you give your legs a workout!


Steve

Can I ask a question about these two exercises?

On the first one (putting face in the water w/o kickboard), what do the arms do? Where are they held? I assume both are out in front??

Second exercise, on the side... Same thing with the arms.What does the non-extended arm do? Is the kick now done 'sideways', with the hips now perpendicular to the water's surface?
Are there video links to examples of theses drills?

Many thanks
kelly


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QclQQc3w1Zg

Use the same exact position in the video except look down at the bottom of the pool with your head. Rotate your head up to breathe.

I know people love their kickboards, but why not work on your kick and your position at the same time?

Edited by steves_training 2010-06-17 9:17 AM
2010-06-17 10:22 AM
in reply to: #2924011

User image

Coach
9165
5000200020001002525
Stairway to Seven
Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
So Gary is advocating either a 2 beat or a 6 beat kick...these kicks only work the way they need to if timed with the arm strokes and body rotation. doing sets with a kickboard are not very helpful in practicing what gary is advocating for a number of reasons already mentioned in this thread, or at least alluded to...

Using kickboards
  • .. neglects balance
  • .. neglects rotation
  • .. neglects timing


  • Do any kick focused work without a kickboard, with your face in the water, head down, one arm extended in it's "railroad track" position (ie not directly in front of your head) and leaning into the open armpit on that side. There are so many t hings you can integrate into a "kick set" like this to help hone and tune your body proprioception that can't be done while using a kickboard.

    You can even work on breathing in this position by rotating your head to the side while staying in the extended, rotated position, training yourself not to pick your head up out of the water in order to breath.

    These sets can be valuable on soooooo many different levels to make the most use of limited pool time.

    2010-06-17 11:59 AM
    in reply to: #2927758

    Member
    28
    25
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    What about a 4 beat kick?  That's really all I can do.  2 beat feels way to slow and 6 beat way too fast.
    2010-06-17 12:37 PM
    in reply to: #2928152

    User image

    Coach
    9165
    5000200020001002525
    Stairway to Seven
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    mharms - 2010-06-17 10:59 AM

    What about a 4 beat kick?  That's really all I can do.  2 beat feels way to slow and 6 beat way too fast.


    How are you timing it? if you use R-L-R-L in an even patter for each R arm stroke then L arm stroke (eg R arm stroke as R kick, L kick and L arm stroke also has R kick L kick) then you won't get the timing benefit of using the kick to help rotate.

    If on the other hand you use a R kick L kick pause L kick R kick pause then you can still coordinate opposite hand/arm and leg/foot to assist with rotation.

    I am trying to find a video to demonstrate, but the coffee shop connection I'm at is slow.


    2010-06-17 12:43 PM
    in reply to: #2924011

    User image

    Master
    2356
    20001001001002525
    Westlake Village , Ca.
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    I use a kickboard mostly to build kicking strength....but I know that is a nono in TI...swimming exercises for fitness only that is.
    2010-06-17 12:43 PM
    in reply to: #2924011

    User image

    Extreme Veteran
    732
    50010010025
    Omaha, USA
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    A few other things I'd wish Gary would have clarified is how big the kick should be.
    For example, imagine your body swimming thru a straw, how far outside the straw should I be kicking?
    Is there any way a triathlete can increase their foot flexibility to reduce drag, despite a heavy toll from running?
    2010-06-17 2:50 PM
    in reply to: #2924011

    User image

    Veteran
    274
    1001002525
    outskirts of town
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    Does this mean that a 2 beat kick should only be used by those with a strong kick to begin with?

    I use what I would consider a sloppy 2 beat and have become accustomed to it. Whenever I revert to a 6 beat, I get gassed quickly! I guess that would be the argument to improve ones kick. I love the relaxed feeling of 2 beats!
    2010-06-17 3:39 PM
    in reply to: #2928275

    Member
    28
    25
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    AdventureBear - 2010-06-17 12:37 PM
    mharms - 2010-06-17 10:59 AM What about a 4 beat kick?  That's really all I can do.  2 beat feels way to slow and 6 beat way too fast.
    How are you timing it? if you use R-L-R-L in an even patter for each R arm stroke then L arm stroke (eg R arm stroke as R kick, L kick and L arm stroke also has R kick L kick) then you won't get the timing benefit of using the kick to help rotate. If on the other hand you use a R kick L kick pause L kick R kick pause then you can still coordinate opposite hand/arm and leg/foot to assist with rotation. I am trying to find a video to demonstrate, but the coffee shop connection I'm at is slow.


    It's the former-- my kick isn't really coordinated with my strokes.  So I guess I should try to switch to a 2-beat kick--but if I did that without a wetsuit, my legs would sink like a rock.  And I can't quite kick fast enough for 6 beats.
    2010-06-17 5:10 PM
    in reply to: #2928839

    User image

    Coach
    9165
    5000200020001002525
    Stairway to Seven
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    mharms - 2010-06-17 2:39 PM

    AdventureBear - 2010-06-17 12:37 PM
    mharms - 2010-06-17 10:59 AM What about a 4 beat kick?  That's really all I can do.  2 beat feels way to slow and 6 beat way too fast.
    How are you timing it? if you use R-L-R-L in an even patter for each R arm stroke then L arm stroke (eg R arm stroke as R kick, L kick and L arm stroke also has R kick L kick) then you won't get the timing benefit of using the kick to help rotate. If on the other hand you use a R kick L kick pause L kick R kick pause then you can still coordinate opposite hand/arm and leg/foot to assist with rotation. I am trying to find a video to demonstrate, but the coffee shop connection I'm at is slow.


    It's the former-- my kick isn't really coordinated with my strokes.  So I guess I should try to switch to a 2-beat kick--but if I did that without a wetsuit, my legs would sink like a rock.  And I can't quite kick fast enough for 6 beats.


    It's all about timing. if your kick is not coordinated with your pull, in other words if you are not swimming with your full body in a coordinated fashion, you are better off not having your legs do any work at all. Work on getting the timing of the 2 BK down...coordinating opposite arm & leg moving at teh same time...the kick helps initiate teh core rotation which creates a platform from which to leverage the arm pull. Propulsion then comes from teh core and not from the arms.

    Move away from the idea that swimming divides the body into a front half or "arms department" and a back half or "legs department". Instead, swimming should be a "right half" streamline and "left half" streamline department, with the objective to move from one to the other as briskly as possible, staying in each streamline position until the last reasonable moment before switching to the other by shifting your weight and initiating rotation with a kick. 2 sides of the body = 2 beat kick.


    2010-06-17 8:17 PM
    in reply to: #2925925

    User image

    Regular
    52
    2525
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    There really isn't a true 4 beat kick. You either use a  two beat (one kick per each arm stroke) or a 6 beat kick (3 kicks per each arm stroke). However, for the mathematicians, there are some swimmers who alternate between a 2 beat kick on one cycle and a 6 beat kick on the next cycle....so if one averaged it out, it would be a 4 beat kick.

    I really am disappointed that I got all of you to agree on this thread. I'll have to do better next time with #10.

    Gary 
    2010-06-17 8:28 PM
    in reply to: #2928292

    User image

    Regular
    52
    2525
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
    Overbending the knee is a common mistake many kickers make. Like so many other aspects of swimming, kicking is a compromise between the greater power you can generate by bending the knee more and the increased drag that the same motion creates. Drag generally over-rules power, so opt for the smaller bend  (or as Skip Kenney, coach at Stanford says) "kick as if your feet are inside a bucket". 
    For increased flexion of the ankle, try Finis' The Rack. It is torture device for runners. Or try my infamous freestyle squat pushups which are just as bad. 

    Gary 
    2010-06-17 8:30 PM
    in reply to: #2924011

    User image

    Expert
    2852
    20005001001001002525
    Pfafftown, NC
    Subject: RE: Swim Myth #9.....busted.
     if your kick is not coordinated with your pull, in other words if you are not swimming with your full body in a coordinated fashion, you are better off not having your legs do any work at all.

    With all due respect.....my bet is (if I'm wrong - I'm wrong)....body type for some would make this statement FALSE.  If I don't kick "at all", I'm peein' in the wind in the water, trying to go slow.  My legs WILL sink me like a rock.
    New Thread
    General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Swim Myth #9.....busted. Rss Feed  
    Show Per page
     
     
    of 2