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2011-05-17 2:16 PM


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Subject: running twice a day?

I'm moving into a run focused phase, and I always have a tendency to overdue things and get injured. Do you think spreading your shorter runs and speed sessions into twice a day would prevent injury.

Maybe a week would look like this:

D1: LDS 14-18 miles

D2: 4-6miles easy

D3: Morning: 3X mile repeats slightly faster than 5K pace with 1:1 rest

Night: 3-4 miles easy

D4: Morning 4 miles easy

Night: 3 mile run with 1.5miles at 10K race pace

D5: 8-12 miles at HM pace

D6: speed work/ Hill work

D7: rest

 

Any thoughts or suggestions



2011-05-17 2:20 PM
in reply to: #3504427

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Subject: RE: running twice a day?
Nothing wrong with running doubles, I'd be much more concerned about the amount of quality runs you're trying to squeeze into a week.
2011-05-17 2:27 PM
in reply to: #3504427


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Subject: RE: running twice a day?
ya I'm not set on anything...maybe subtract a speed workout here or there. Limit to two a week or something. I would like to get a seed/endurance workout (mile repeats) with a track workout a week.
2011-05-17 2:40 PM
in reply to: #3504427

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Master
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Subject: RE: running twice a day?

I'm in the fourth week of a 21 week marathon program, and I've already done a few doubles, but more because of time issues with longer runs. I'll definitely do more as my program progresses. I based my plan on Jack Daniels' 'Running Formula' book with a peak of around 65 miles.

As was said before, I'd watch your 'Quality' run sessions (speed days) per week. Two is probably plenty, and a long run can sometimes count. I'm currently doing these days on Tuesday and Thursday with every other Wednesday as my break day. If you have a race, that will count as a speed day for the week.

Are you following a plan or kind of 'winging' it?

2011-05-17 3:30 PM
in reply to: #3504427

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Subject: RE: running twice a day?
coopermorgan111 - 2011-05-17 2:16 PM

I'm moving into a run focused phase, and I always have a tendency to overdue things and get injured. Do you think spreading your shorter runs and speed sessions into twice a day would prevent injury.

Maybe a week would look like this:

D1: LDS 14-18 miles

D2: 4-6miles easy

D3: Morning: 3X mile repeats slightly faster than 5K pace with 1:1 rest

Night: 3-4 miles easy

D4: Morning 4 miles easy

Night: 3 mile run with 1.5miles at 10K race pace

D5: 8-12 miles at HM pace

D6: speed work/ Hill work

D7: rest

 

Any thoughts or suggestions

 

I wouldn't do LDS....I'm not in to Mormonism.  

Here's what I would suggest:

D1: LSD 5 miles, LSD 10 miles

D2: 4-6miles easy

D3: 3X mile repeats slightly faster than 5K pace with 1:1 rest then 3-4 miles easy (one workout)

D4: Morning 4 miles easy

Night: 3 mile run with 1.5miles at 10K race pace

D5: 5 miles EZ morning,  5 miles at HM pace evening

D6: 5 miles EZ morning,  5 miles EZ evening

D7: rest

I don't think you are doing it right by cutting up the INTENSE days in to 2 runs...I think you need to cut up the LONG days in to 2 runs.    Your intense days are relatively short in terms of miles.  They still count as to overall training load of course.  The idea is to even out your training load day to day (because your stated goal is to minimize injury risk).

 

2011-05-17 4:52 PM
in reply to: #3504427

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Subject: RE: running twice a day?
coopermorgan111 - 2011-05-17 3:16 PM

I'm moving into a run focused phase, and I always have a tendency to overdue things and get injured. Do you think spreading your shorter runs and speed sessions into twice a day would prevent injury.

Maybe a week would look like this:

D1: LDS 14-18 miles

D2: 4-6miles easy

D3: Morning: 3X mile repeats slightly faster than 5K pace with 1:1 rest

Night: 3-4 miles easy

D4: Morning 4 miles easy

Night: 3 mile run with 1.5miles at 10K race pace

D5: 8-12 miles at HM pace

D6: speed work/ Hill work

D7: rest

 

Any thoughts or suggestions

What is your running background?  (I mean it must be decent given this plan)  If you have a tendency to overdue things, this seems really intense. I feel like you are opening yourself up to all sorts of potential injuries.

Splitting the workouts into two-a-days are good for time purposes, but, let's also consider quality of the work outs.  From my perspective (full disclosure: I'm not the fastest runner on the block and I'm a conservative runner), this is a very ambitious plan and the evening run workout quality could suffer.  You can get away with weaker form on a bike if you're tired, but when you're running, form is paramount.  So, if I did a hard work out in the morning, then worked all day, and had to continue the second running part, I'd be pretty tired.  I work out twice a day, but runs always seem to be the most taxing on joints/tendons/ligaments.

Final thought, there is no such thing as a 'recovery' run.



2011-05-17 4:55 PM
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Subject: RE: running twice a day?
coopermorgan111 - 2011-05-17 3:16 PM

I'm moving into a run focused phase, and I always have a tendency to overdue things and get injured. Do you think spreading your shorter runs and speed sessions into twice a day would prevent injury.

Maybe a week would look like this:

D1: LDS 14-18 miles

D2: 4-6miles easy

D3: Morning: 3X mile repeats slightly faster than 5K pace with 1:1 rest

Night: 3-4 miles easy

D4: Morning 4 miles easy

Night: 3 mile run with 1.5miles at 10K race pace

D5: 8-12 miles at HM pace

D6: speed work/ Hill work

D7: rest

 

Any thoughts or suggestions

 

Most of that seems decent to me. I do wonder about 1 or 2 things.

D4 you split the day, which is ok, but what is your reasoning behind 1.5mi at 10k pace?

D5 you really plan on running 8-12mi at HM pace? so you will essentially be racing a HM every week?

D6 If you do plan on D5 then I am thinking you are not going to be up to speedwork or hills on this day. If you change D5 to something more like 4 or 5mi at ~6:20 pace then make D6 a relaxed 6mi with strides after.

 

Just my 0.02 cents

2011-05-17 6:29 PM
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Subject: RE: running twice a day?

Based off your logs, I'd advise against running doubles until you build  your base a bit more...That being said, I don't know how current your logs are.

Between April and May, you've run about 140 miles, but for the year, your logs have you at a total of 230 miles...did you only run 90 miles from January to March? If that the case, it seems as though you've really bumped up your mileage...rather quickly. That's a recipe for an injury.

BUT, based off your run paces, I'd have to think you have some type of running background. If you have a decent base, then I'd say go for it...if not, then I'd say run more often, but keep it to one run a day...for now. That's just me thinking out loud, though. Maybe there is a benefit to running twice a day with little to no base.

Good luck!

2011-05-17 7:39 PM
in reply to: #3504427


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Subject: RE: running twice a day?

I've only been on this sight for a couple of months so I haven't recorded everything. I trained for a marathon in the fall and winter, until I got injured. I actually ran 30 miles for my longest distance(...dumb I know). I have been running consistently in the 25-30MPW the last few months.

I have been running consistently for 5 years (3-5X per week) with mainly shorter runs (4-7 miles). I have really focused my run training in the last couple of months, with the addition of speed work and a strateg/planning. So my runnning background is an intermediate level.

My goal for the next few months is to improve my run game as that is what seperates me from an overall win. I'm not so concerned about motivation or energy when it comes to running, my limiting factor is getting injured.

As far as plan goes, I try to get a LDS run in a week, a speed workout, a medium day (8-10 miles) and a easy run. I'm not so structured on exact workouts but have a general guideline for what I am doing each day. My plan is to start running 6 days a week, get my MPW to the 50-60 range and try to work on speed a bit more. 

I know my plan is ambitious, but I am young, and have lots of time to train. Your imput is great.

 

2011-05-17 11:00 PM
in reply to: #3504427

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Subject: RE: running twice a day?
I see a big ol' disconnect between your plan, and your reality.

You have an ambitious plan, incorporating two workouts a day twice a week, and a total mileage north of 40 mpw.

And yet you state that you have a problem with overdoing things and getting injured, which causes you to miss workouts.

How about this idea:

Instead of trying to string together some spiffy workouts, you work on getting your consistency up. That means running often without getting injured. Once you can handle your proposed mileage from your initial plan, THEN you start looking at intervals and whatnot.

Of course, if you want to ignore the previous advice, I would say that you're not really going to gain a whole lot speed-wise from doing 3 mile repeats or 3 miles with half at 10K pace. Those are not going to be very challenging, and you would be better off just running rather than doing those workouts.

If you want to improve your speed short-term, I'd say start doing strides, or straights-and-curves (hard effort on the straights, easy effort on the curves, focus on staying smooth and fluid), or progression runs (start out easy, get progressively harder). You will see more bang for your buck doing those workouts than you will what you've got listed so far.

But I still think you'd be better off scrapping those workouts for now and just getting in mileage.
2011-05-18 8:08 AM
in reply to: #3505244

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Subject: RE: running twice a day?
Or 30/40 drills... Wink


2011-05-18 8:25 AM
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Subject: RE: running twice a day?
Scout7 - 2011-05-17 10:00 PM

I see a big ol' disconnect between your plan, and your reality.

You have an ambitious plan, incorporating two workouts a day twice a week, and a total mileage north of 40 mpw.

And yet you state that you have a problem with overdoing things and getting injured, which causes you to miss workouts.

How about this idea:

Instead of trying to string together some spiffy workouts, you work on getting your consistency up. That means running often without getting injured. Once you can handle your proposed mileage from your initial plan, THEN you start looking at intervals and whatnot.

Of course, if you want to ignore the previous advice, I would say that you're not really going to gain a whole lot speed-wise from doing 3 mile repeats or 3 miles with half at 10K pace. Those are not going to be very challenging, and you would be better off just running rather than doing those workouts.

If you want to improve your speed short-term, I'd say start doing strides, or straights-and-curves (hard effort on the straights, easy effort on the curves, focus on staying smooth and fluid), or progression runs (start out easy, get progressively harder). You will see more bang for your buck doing those workouts than you will what you've got listed so far.

But I still think you'd be better off scrapping those workouts for now and just getting in mileage.


This is sort of what I was thinking. You in your very first line about your past training said you got hurt over 30 miles a week. That is a big red flag in a jump in mileage and quality workouts. This does not mean you cannot work up to it, but i'd be very careful in doing so and would do it slowly. Work on getting your number of runs/distance of runs up before you think about trying to tackle a week like that. The volume will do more for you speed wise than trying to sprinkle in a 1600m interval at 10k or 3x1mi.

Also, unless you are strapped for time i'd say at the 40-50mi a week range you may want to still think about trying to run those all on one run per day, or at least as soon as you get used to the mileage.
2011-05-18 8:29 AM
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Subject: RE: running twice a day?

As you say, you have a tendency to overdo things...

To answer your original question:  There's absolutely nothing wrong with doubles.  In fact, it can be a useful way to increase mileage with lower risk of injury.  At least, it works that way for me.

But there is no rhyme or reason to your plan.  The 1.5 miles at 10K pace will do nothing for you except make you tired.  The mile repeats would make sense during some phases of your training, for some races, but it doesn't make sense as a regular 'staple' in your week.  And most glaringly, as someone else pointed out, 8-12 miles at HM is suicide.

You have ambitious aspirations, and that's great.  IMO you need to do three things:

1.  Increase mileage sensibly

2.  Pick a goal race and adopt a reasonable plan aimed at that race

3.  Increase mileage sensibly.

Numbers 1 and 3 are the most important.  Don't worry about speedwork.  Just run.  If you feel particularly good one day, then make it a progression run.  Or go hard up the hills on a hilly run.  Or do some strides.  Occasionally.  As in maximum once per week.  Otherwise, you will sabotage you primary goal, which is to increase mileage (sensibly).

As for Number 2, for your next race, aim to get to 40mpw consistently (at least 4-8 weeks in a row), then add some race-specific speedwork and go nail it.  Then pick another race and aim for 50mpw consistently, again add race-specific speedwork, and race.  Depending on your ambition and ability, repeat this process many times, adding 10 miles each cycle, until you are able to get up to X miles per week for some high number X (like 80, or 100).

My 2c. 

2011-05-18 8:32 AM
in reply to: #3505244

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Subject: RE: running twice a day?

Scout7 - 2011-05-17 10:00 PM I see a big ol' disconnect between your plan, and your reality. You have an ambitious plan, incorporating two workouts a day twice a week, and a total mileage north of 40 mpw. And yet you state that you have a problem with overdoing things and getting injured, which causes you to miss workouts. How about this idea: Instead of trying to string together some spiffy workouts, you work on getting your consistency up. That means running often without getting injured. Once you can handle your proposed mileage from your initial plan, THEN you start looking at intervals and whatnot. Of course, if you want to ignore the previous advice, I would say that you're not really going to gain a whole lot speed-wise from doing 3 mile repeats or 3 miles with half at 10K pace. Those are not going to be very challenging, and you would be better off just running rather than doing those workouts. If you want to improve your speed short-term, I'd say start doing strides, or straights-and-curves (hard effort on the straights, easy effort on the curves, focus on staying smooth and fluid), or progression runs (start out easy, get progressively harder). You will see more bang for your buck doing those workouts than you will what you've got listed so far. But I still think you'd be better off scrapping those workouts for now and just getting in mileage.

As a follow up to some of the points Scout made, do you know why you do particular speed workouts?  Do you know what physiology it's working to change or improve?  Just throwing in random speed workouts doesn't necessarily make for a stronger/better runner.  Personally, I know I couldn't come up with a plan on my own including speedwork that would progress properly.  I have a lot of speedwork in my plan and logs but it's all written by an experienced professional coach who works with athletes at my level (ie SLOW) and incredibly fast athletes doing sub 17 min 5ks.  And let me tell you, we're seeing results at all levels.  PR's are a dime a dozen with our group these days.  But, on top of that, my coach is protective of our health and she will force rest if injuries are threatening.  I heard her threaten to sit on someone yesterday when they asked if they could do an extra run.  She even managed to coach one of our athletes through back injuries to a 5 minute marathon PR last month.  Her previous PR was from 1995. 

All of this to say intense plans can be great but if they are not designed with experience, skill and a knowledge of what the signs of inviting injury are they can be recipes for disaster and it sounds to me that you've battled that more than once. 

2011-05-18 3:19 PM
in reply to: #3504427


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Subject: RE: running twice a day?

thanks for all the replys...I didn't get injured on 30 MPW but a 30 mile run. My goal is to first increase my milege slowly, from my current 25-35 range to closer to 40-60. And the proposed week I layed out was thought up in about the time it took to type it, so I understand the flaws.

One of the major reasons I would like to do two a day is because I am in a position where I can't cycle or swim as much, so I have much more time to run. I figured instead to doing a 20 mile ride or swim session, I could run instead. I'm just worried about getting hurt

so what I am hearing is:

1. skip the two a day until my milege is built up

2. work on total milege first then speed

 

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