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2011-06-14 2:19 PM
in reply to: #3548829

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Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer
jldicarlo - 2011-06-14 3:01 PM

valpodad - 2011-06-13 9:50 AM

Let's talk about suffering - and no, I do NOT mean suffering due to lack of training.  I am talking about suffering from pushing your pace to your limit - and in particular, during short races.

I am in my third season of tri's and have raced Sprints to HIM's.  I really like Sprints because I feel that it is a much simpler race (nutrition, pacing, etc are less of a factor).  I like going out and pushing as hard as (I think) I am able.  But the "I think" gets in the way.  It is a boundary.  I am breathing really hard - "I think" this is as hard as I can go.  My legs are burning like crazy.  "I think" I better back off or I won't be able to run.  What ever...

My questions for discussion:  How does one learn to access their current physical capabilites?  What really happens if you push it too hard?  How many races/years does it take to learn to push beyond our mental limits?  Must one be prepared to fail in order to improve?

Go through basic training.

OR, run high school cross country.

I attribute my ability to push myself to my limits to those two things.   I kind of go bananas when I see people taking their PT test and they are "dying" and they are barely going anywhere.  I definitely think it's more of a mental issue of not understanding just how hard you CAN push yourself without really dying.



Yep. It becomes a little easier to push beyond your currently perceived limits when you have a drill instructor dogging you, or are racing other kids and trying not to let you friends down.


2011-06-14 2:30 PM
in reply to: #3546712

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Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer
Experior - 2011-06-13 2:02 PM

Of course, we are all familiar with more spectacular examples of elite races that are 'jog-and-kick'.

I've always wondered what it took for Billy Mills to kick in that last 100m, though the race up until then really wasn't a "jog" in the sense that some can be. 

Anyway, back to the topic - which is a good one.

2011-06-14 2:32 PM
in reply to: #3548871

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Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer
Scout7 - 2011-06-14 2:19 PM
jldicarlo - 2011-06-14 3:01 PM
valpodad - 2011-06-13 9:50 AM

Let's talk about suffering - and no, I do NOT mean suffering due to lack of training.  I am talking about suffering from pushing your pace to your limit - and in particular, during short races.

I am in my third season of tri's and have raced Sprints to HIM's.  I really like Sprints because I feel that it is a much simpler race (nutrition, pacing, etc are less of a factor).  I like going out and pushing as hard as (I think) I am able.  But the "I think" gets in the way.  It is a boundary.  I am breathing really hard - "I think" this is as hard as I can go.  My legs are burning like crazy.  "I think" I better back off or I won't be able to run.  What ever...

My questions for discussion:  How does one learn to access their current physical capabilites?  What really happens if you push it too hard?  How many races/years does it take to learn to push beyond our mental limits?  Must one be prepared to fail in order to improve?

Go through basic training.

OR, run high school cross country.

I attribute my ability to push myself to my limits to those two things.   I kind of go bananas when I see people taking their PT test and they are "dying" and they are barely going anywhere.  I definitely think it's more of a mental issue of not understanding just how hard you CAN push yourself without really dying.

Yep. It becomes a little easier to push beyond your currently perceived limits when you have a drill instructor dogging you, or are racing other kids and trying not to let you friends down.

Ha! I have almost doubled my mile running splits since I was in the army back in 93, that's good right? right?

Back then I could all out sprint 2 miles and have a gratuitous puke-fest when I was done for a 10:15sh time.

My first Squad leader was all army cross country team. I thought 12.5 mile Friday mornings at a 6:30-7 min pace made me a god amongst men.   The 8 Mile ruck runs ending with a couple reps of cherry hill on Ft Lewis was good times. 

I wish I knew about triathlons back then.

/cool story bro

2011-06-14 3:04 PM
in reply to: #3545988

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Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer
valpodad - 2011-06-13 9:50 AM

Let's talk about suffering - and no, I do NOT mean suffering due to lack of training.  I am talking about suffering from pushing your pace to your limit - and in particular, during short races.

I am in my third season of tri's and have raced Sprints to HIM's.  I really like Sprints because I feel that it is a much simpler race (nutrition, pacing, etc are less of a factor).  I like going out and pushing as hard as (I think) I am able.  But the "I think" gets in the way.  It is a boundary.  I am breathing really hard - "I think" this is as hard as I can go.  My legs are burning like crazy.  "I think" I better back off or I won't be able to run.  What ever...

My questions for discussion:  How does one learn to access their current physical capabilites?  What really happens if you push it too hard?  How many races/years does it take to learn to push beyond our mental limits?  Must one be prepared to fail in order to improve?



Have you done V02 testing for the bike and run? Do you know your LT?

You could use your HR measurement to tell you, "I'm not at LT... I can keep at this pace and not fall apart anytime soon". ????

But yes, it's hard to turn off that "Slow down" mechanism in our brains. Our bodies are smart, they tell us to slow down when we still have gas left in the tank... just like our car's gas light comes in before we are completely on E.

You can get use to pushing past that point in training.

2011-06-14 5:11 PM
in reply to: #3548892

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Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer
sand101 - 2011-06-14 12:30 PM
Experior - 2011-06-13 2:02 PM

Of course, we are all familiar with more spectacular examples of elite races that are 'jog-and-kick'.

I've always wondered what it took for Billy Mills to kick in that last 100m, though the race up until then really wasn't a "jog" in the sense that some can be. 

Anyway, back to the topic - which is a good one.

Finish every run with an up tempo 200 or so. Doesn't have to be a sprint, but get used to the last bit of every run being up tempo (Even off of a cooldown). Then when you are racing, you have that mental "Oh yeah, time to kick".

John

2011-06-15 11:12 PM
in reply to: #3545988

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Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer

Different context but same theory:

In Stephen Pressfield’s classic “War of Art”, he mentions that the high performers, the creatives, those who produce, those who are effective, etc. eventually have to learn to “be miserable”.

“The artist must be like that marine. He has to know how to be miserable. He has to love being miserable. He has to take pride in being more miserable than any soldier…because this is war, baby. And war is hell.” (68)

I believe this is a powerful idea and one every man, every leader and every change agent must learn in order to perform and push through tough seasons of life and leadership.

Navy Seals teach this...one of my friends at dinner mentioned how two-a-days football practices taught him this...another friend added how Medical school Residency taught him this...I threw in how that was my greatest lesson in training for and running a marathon…you can be miserable, and still move forward, produce and thrive.  God teaches this…see Abraham, Moses, Joseph, David, Paul…take your pick.

What a powerful lesson we should all live!  Could there be a greater gift, on a practical level, to invest in our kids?  How can we train emerging leaders or church planters with this reality?

In our age of spoiled kids, privileged kids, over-indulgence, helicopter parenting, and the lies we tell kids and young men and women that they “can be and do anything they want to be and do”…many are launching “soft” young adults into the world who have no idea how to struggle well or thrive through misery…so they pout and quit and remain a taker, not a giver.

Couple that with ridiculous expectations that a perfect job is waiting on them along with a perfect boss in exactly the city they want to live in along with a paycheck that is more than they’ll need and you have a recipe for a disaster…check most 20-somethings.

The few truly understand, theologically, that we live in a fallen world, this is not heaven (thank God), life is hard, there is much pain, disappointment and misery…but in the midst of that, by God’s grace, we can learn to cultivate and create in the midst of circumstances that will rarely, if ever, be ideal.  

A friend once told me to pinch Gen 1 and 2 in one hand and Rev 19 and 20 in the other.  Those 4 chapters are perfection.  The other 1,185 chapters in the Bible teach us to contend in the midst of a fallen world.

Don’t be a whiner, quitter, or baby and quit pouting or being surprised about “how hard” it is to do what you are doing.  Of course it is.  You are limited as a fallen human in a fallen world.  Learn to cultivate and create…all the while, being miserable.  If you can thrive and stay on mission, especially through the worst of circumstances, you are preparing to be a game changer, a true leader, who can adapt, adjust, and endure.  

Jesus is still our perfect rescuer and our relentless pursuit of Him is still our greatest joy.



2011-06-16 7:40 AM
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Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer

I know when I'm gearing up for a marathon I actually look forward to that bad long run, the one where everything falls apart and you struggle for 15+ miles. I've learned that in any training season it's inevitable, so once it's happened I don't worry about it anymore.

But then you have those days where it seems effortless, and you know you're ready!

2011-06-16 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer

Dave Luscan - 2011-06-14 8:55 AM

Scout7 - 2011-06-14 7:18 AM I was thinking about this post again, because something has been nagging me. And I look it up this morning to see someone has already hit upon it: You shouldn't learn to suffer. This premise, that racing hard = suffering, is what holds most people back, I believe. They look at the discomfort of pushing their current known physical limits and think that they can't possibly deal with the suffering. And it is at that point that the decision has already been made; they will not go beyond that point, unless a significantly large enough outside motivating factor comes into play. Suffering is not enjoyable, by its very definition. However, racing SHOULD be enjoyable, training SHOULD be enjoyable. Of course, there may be stretches that are not as enjoyable as others; it is just the nature of things. But overall, you should be enjoying your training and racing. The mindset that pushing yourself physically equates to suffering takes the fun out of racing and training. Now, from personal study, I believe that the only to "train" this idea is to do the mental and physical work in training. That means that you have to go out and train hard sometimes. Not every day; not even every week. But you have to push yourself in training to be able to push yourself in races. You have to find a motivational factor that can force your mind to override the body's natural desire not to be worked. Finding that factor is up to you; I cannot say what motivates others, only speak for myself. I know that for me, I use everyone else out there on the course to push myself. I use the collective spirit of my competitors, all of them, to push my body. I want to pass people, not because I necessarily want to beat them, but because I believe I honor their efforts by giving my very best. That's my motivation; I do not want to let my competitors down by not pushing myself. I do not seek out suffering. I want to avoid suffering. I want to work hard, because I know that it is what is needed to be my best. I want to push my body and mind in order to be as well-prepared on race day as I can be. But I do not look upon this as suffering; rather I see it as a natural part of everything, something that should be embraced, appreciated, enjoyed. If you can break away from the idea of suffering in a race or training as something that you have to do, and separate the physical discomfort of pushing your body from the negative qualities of suffering, you'll find it much easier to actually try to push yourself beyond your limits.



So awesome and surprising that anyone else feels this way.  It is 100% true.  Humans do not have to learn to suffer. We suffer so much in our daily lives that we are blind to most of it.  What we need to do is stop looking for pain, suffering and discomfort in our training and racing.  It is a matter of semantics but also a matter of shifting the mindset.

Intense does not have to equal pain and suffering.  Training and racing are some of the most physically intense things we do. That intensity can easily be labelled as pain and suffering as we do not really have a frame of reference or vocabulary to express it otherwise.  Me, I just think of it as orgasmic, because it is far more similar.

Maschists seek out true pain. Most people are not true masochists, therefor you are not seeking out pain and suffering. If training and racing were painful, not very many would participate.  Training and racing is intense in a glorious and life affirming manner.

It is really a bit of ego stroking to think of what you do in terms of pain and suffering and pushing through it.  Not only ego stroking, but also limiting you from really finding how far you can go.

Tunnel vision, dizzy, tasting blood, vomiting, blacking out?  Great!  You and 75% of the other ladies  in the 60+ age groups as well.  So now what do you do to set yourself apart?


I've had a couple major suffer-fests.  The two biggest ones where while I was training for a marathon and another during the marathon itself.  Neither one was enjoyable and why there isn't another marathon on the horizon for me.  I just don't feel the need to suffer through anything I don't have to.  It's not fun.  Not enjoyable.  And just not necessary. 

Now don't get me wrong, I've had my share of tough workouts and disappointing races.  When started running I always seemed to hit a wall around 5 miles.  I just couldn't complete a longer run without walking.  Later when I started adding tempo runs I was having trouble not slowing down or even finishing them at all.  Both of these where hard.  Neither was enjoyable.  But I felt that getting through them were important for my goals.  I realized my head was getting in the way and once I did I was able to suck it up and get through.  Did I suffer through the workouts?  At the time it sure felt like it.  But looking back I believe I was just pushing out of my comfort zone.  Doing so is certainly difficult but I want to learn how to push myself, not learn how to suffer. 

If you're really suffering I think you need to take a step back and look at what's causing you to suffer.  For example, last summer I was suffering a lot during my runs because it was so hot.  Sometimes I couldn't complete a run or I'd be reduced to run/walk. At one point I had to commandeer a garden hose during the middle of a run because I was overheated.  Initially I thought I needed to HTFU and suffer through them.  That's what you do if you want to get better, right?  Then I started to get a feeling that doing so was actually having a negative impact on my training.  What good was trying to suffer through my workouts if I was regularly unable to complete them?  So I made some changes (started tempering my pace zones with HR and changed the time I was running) and was able to complete my workout.  As a result I was able to continue to push myself and improve. 

The ability to push myself will help me improve.  Suffering won't help me meet my goals.  Suffering just sucks.

2011-06-16 1:39 PM
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