Learning to Suffer (Page 3)
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2011-06-14 2:19 PM in reply to: #3548829 |
Runner | Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer jldicarlo - 2011-06-14 3:01 PM valpodad - 2011-06-13 9:50 AM Let's talk about suffering - and no, I do NOT mean suffering due to lack of training. I am talking about suffering from pushing your pace to your limit - and in particular, during short races. I am in my third season of tri's and have raced Sprints to HIM's. I really like Sprints because I feel that it is a much simpler race (nutrition, pacing, etc are less of a factor). I like going out and pushing as hard as (I think) I am able. But the "I think" gets in the way. It is a boundary. I am breathing really hard - "I think" this is as hard as I can go. My legs are burning like crazy. "I think" I better back off or I won't be able to run. What ever... My questions for discussion: How does one learn to access their current physical capabilites? What really happens if you push it too hard? How many races/years does it take to learn to push beyond our mental limits? Must one be prepared to fail in order to improve? Go through basic training. OR, run high school cross country. I attribute my ability to push myself to my limits to those two things. I kind of go bananas when I see people taking their PT test and they are "dying" and they are barely going anywhere. I definitely think it's more of a mental issue of not understanding just how hard you CAN push yourself without really dying. Yep. It becomes a little easier to push beyond your currently perceived limits when you have a drill instructor dogging you, or are racing other kids and trying not to let you friends down. |
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2011-06-14 2:30 PM in reply to: #3546712 |
Master 2372 | Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer Experior - 2011-06-13 2:02 PM Of course, we are all familiar with more spectacular examples of elite races that are 'jog-and-kick'. I've always wondered what it took for Billy Mills to kick in that last 100m, though the race up until then really wasn't a "jog" in the sense that some can be. Anyway, back to the topic - which is a good one. |
2011-06-14 2:32 PM in reply to: #3548871 |
New user 78 Rochester NY | Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer Scout7 - 2011-06-14 2:19 PM jldicarlo - 2011-06-14 3:01 PM Yep. It becomes a little easier to push beyond your currently perceived limits when you have a drill instructor dogging you, or are racing other kids and trying not to let you friends down.valpodad - 2011-06-13 9:50 AM Let's talk about suffering - and no, I do NOT mean suffering due to lack of training. I am talking about suffering from pushing your pace to your limit - and in particular, during short races. I am in my third season of tri's and have raced Sprints to HIM's. I really like Sprints because I feel that it is a much simpler race (nutrition, pacing, etc are less of a factor). I like going out and pushing as hard as (I think) I am able. But the "I think" gets in the way. It is a boundary. I am breathing really hard - "I think" this is as hard as I can go. My legs are burning like crazy. "I think" I better back off or I won't be able to run. What ever... My questions for discussion: How does one learn to access their current physical capabilites? What really happens if you push it too hard? How many races/years does it take to learn to push beyond our mental limits? Must one be prepared to fail in order to improve? Go through basic training. OR, run high school cross country. I attribute my ability to push myself to my limits to those two things. I kind of go bananas when I see people taking their PT test and they are "dying" and they are barely going anywhere. I definitely think it's more of a mental issue of not understanding just how hard you CAN push yourself without really dying. Ha! I have almost doubled my mile running splits since I was in the army back in 93, that's good right? right? Back then I could all out sprint 2 miles and have a gratuitous puke-fest when I was done for a 10:15sh time. My first Squad leader was all army cross country team. I thought 12.5 mile Friday mornings at a 6:30-7 min pace made me a god amongst men. The 8 Mile ruck runs ending with a couple reps of cherry hill on Ft Lewis was good times. I wish I knew about triathlons back then. /cool story bro |
2011-06-14 3:04 PM in reply to: #3545988 |
Champion 10471 Dallas, TX | Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer valpodad - 2011-06-13 9:50 AM Let's talk about suffering - and no, I do NOT mean suffering due to lack of training. I am talking about suffering from pushing your pace to your limit - and in particular, during short races. I am in my third season of tri's and have raced Sprints to HIM's. I really like Sprints because I feel that it is a much simpler race (nutrition, pacing, etc are less of a factor). I like going out and pushing as hard as (I think) I am able. But the "I think" gets in the way. It is a boundary. I am breathing really hard - "I think" this is as hard as I can go. My legs are burning like crazy. "I think" I better back off or I won't be able to run. What ever... My questions for discussion: How does one learn to access their current physical capabilites? What really happens if you push it too hard? How many races/years does it take to learn to push beyond our mental limits? Must one be prepared to fail in order to improve? Have you done V02 testing for the bike and run? Do you know your LT? You could use your HR measurement to tell you, "I'm not at LT... I can keep at this pace and not fall apart anytime soon". ???? But yes, it's hard to turn off that "Slow down" mechanism in our brains. Our bodies are smart, they tell us to slow down when we still have gas left in the tank... just like our car's gas light comes in before we are completely on E. You can get use to pushing past that point in training. |
2011-06-14 5:11 PM in reply to: #3548892 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer sand101 - 2011-06-14 12:30 PM Experior - 2011-06-13 2:02 PM Of course, we are all familiar with more spectacular examples of elite races that are 'jog-and-kick'. I've always wondered what it took for Billy Mills to kick in that last 100m, though the race up until then really wasn't a "jog" in the sense that some can be. Anyway, back to the topic - which is a good one. Finish every run with an up tempo 200 or so. Doesn't have to be a sprint, but get used to the last bit of every run being up tempo (Even off of a cooldown). Then when you are racing, you have that mental "Oh yeah, time to kick". John |
2011-06-15 11:12 PM in reply to: #3545988 |
Veteran 213 indiana | Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer Different context but same theory: In Stephen Pressfield’s classic “War of Art”, he mentions that the high performers, the creatives, those who produce, those who are effective, etc. eventually have to learn to “be miserable”. |
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2011-06-16 7:40 AM in reply to: #3545988 |
Pro 5755 | Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer I know when I'm gearing up for a marathon I actually look forward to that bad long run, the one where everything falls apart and you struggle for 15+ miles. I've learned that in any training season it's inevitable, so once it's happened I don't worry about it anymore. But then you have those days where it seems effortless, and you know you're ready! |
2011-06-16 12:55 PM in reply to: #3547886 |
Extreme Veteran 1005 Sykesville | Subject: RE: Learning to Suffer Dave Luscan - 2011-06-14 8:55 AM Scout7 - 2011-06-14 7:18 AM I was thinking about this post again, because something has been nagging me. And I look it up this morning to see someone has already hit upon it: You shouldn't learn to suffer. This premise, that racing hard = suffering, is what holds most people back, I believe. They look at the discomfort of pushing their current known physical limits and think that they can't possibly deal with the suffering. And it is at that point that the decision has already been made; they will not go beyond that point, unless a significantly large enough outside motivating factor comes into play. Suffering is not enjoyable, by its very definition. However, racing SHOULD be enjoyable, training SHOULD be enjoyable. Of course, there may be stretches that are not as enjoyable as others; it is just the nature of things. But overall, you should be enjoying your training and racing. The mindset that pushing yourself physically equates to suffering takes the fun out of racing and training. Now, from personal study, I believe that the only to "train" this idea is to do the mental and physical work in training. That means that you have to go out and train hard sometimes. Not every day; not even every week. But you have to push yourself in training to be able to push yourself in races. You have to find a motivational factor that can force your mind to override the body's natural desire not to be worked. Finding that factor is up to you; I cannot say what motivates others, only speak for myself. I know that for me, I use everyone else out there on the course to push myself. I use the collective spirit of my competitors, all of them, to push my body. I want to pass people, not because I necessarily want to beat them, but because I believe I honor their efforts by giving my very best. That's my motivation; I do not want to let my competitors down by not pushing myself. I do not seek out suffering. I want to avoid suffering. I want to work hard, because I know that it is what is needed to be my best. I want to push my body and mind in order to be as well-prepared on race day as I can be. But I do not look upon this as suffering; rather I see it as a natural part of everything, something that should be embraced, appreciated, enjoyed. If you can break away from the idea of suffering in a race or training as something that you have to do, and separate the physical discomfort of pushing your body from the negative qualities of suffering, you'll find it much easier to actually try to push yourself beyond your limits. So awesome and surprising that anyone else feels this way. It is 100% true. Humans do not have to learn to suffer. We suffer so much in our daily lives that we are blind to most of it. What we need to do is stop looking for pain, suffering and discomfort in our training and racing. It is a matter of semantics but also a matter of shifting the mindset. Intense does not have to equal pain and suffering. Training and racing are some of the most physically intense things we do. That intensity can easily be labelled as pain and suffering as we do not really have a frame of reference or vocabulary to express it otherwise. Me, I just think of it as orgasmic, because it is far more similar. Maschists seek out true pain. Most people are not true masochists, therefor you are not seeking out pain and suffering. If training and racing were painful, not very many would participate. Training and racing is intense in a glorious and life affirming manner. It is really a bit of ego stroking to think of what you do in terms of pain and suffering and pushing through it. Not only ego stroking, but also limiting you from really finding how far you can go. Tunnel vision, dizzy, tasting blood, vomiting, blacking out? Great! You and 75% of the other ladies in the 60+ age groups as well. So now what do you do to set yourself apart? I've had a couple major suffer-fests. The two biggest ones where while I was training for a marathon and another during the marathon itself. Neither one was enjoyable and why there isn't another marathon on the horizon for me. I just don't feel the need to suffer through anything I don't have to. It's not fun. Not enjoyable. And just not necessary. Now don't get me wrong, I've had my share of tough workouts and disappointing races. When started running I always seemed to hit a wall around 5 miles. I just couldn't complete a longer run without walking. Later when I started adding tempo runs I was having trouble not slowing down or even finishing them at all. Both of these where hard. Neither was enjoyable. But I felt that getting through them were important for my goals. I realized my head was getting in the way and once I did I was able to suck it up and get through. Did I suffer through the workouts? At the time it sure felt like it. But looking back I believe I was just pushing out of my comfort zone. Doing so is certainly difficult but I want to learn how to push myself, not learn how to suffer. |
2011-06-16 1:39 PM in reply to: #3545988 |
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