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2011-06-14 2:50 PM


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Subject: Quite a few questions, looking for advice

I'll try to keep this organized to make sense.  At the same time, I may be asking these questions for advice too soon since I've only been officially tri training for a week and a half to two weeks.  My training logs are completely up to date.

As you can see, I picked up running (again, I started last year after completing P90X, did too much too quickly and injured my knee) towards the end of April.  Because of fear of repeating last year, I decided to take a very slow and steady approach to running this time around.  Started at 15 minutes and have slowly increased to now where I'm able to run 40 minutes non stop.  I've heard that working on endurance first.  Once you have the endurance, then start working on speed (intervals, tempo runs, etc.).  Is this a good approach?  Or am I missing something that would help me improve endurance AND speed together?  I'm fairly pleased with my pacing, so far, but realize that soon I will want to improve on speed for races.  Or should I just keep going at a nice and comfortable pace for a few months, maybe many months, until my body is completely acclimated to running?

Also related to running, but will be important as bike and swim training progresses, what distance or time should you start to include some type of refueling during your workouts?  For example, now that I'm up to 40 minutes for a run, would it be a good idea to have a little runner bottle with a nutritional type drink?  I guess, in general, at what point (other than just listening to your body, but I would rather not have a negative experience) should refueling be added into your exercises?

Next, Triathlon training.  About 4 weeks ago a Triathlon piqued my interest and I decided to start up bike and swim training to do a Sprint first (August 6th :D ).  I have no previous experience in these two other than recreational growing up.  I have a training program leading up to the Sprint, but I have been doing more time biking and swimming than the program calls for.  I know a lot of things can be answered by simply listening to your own body, but I'd like a little input.  Too much too soon?  Slow it down and increase gradually like I have been with running?  With what I've done so far, my legs are slightly tired.  They haven't felt completely recovered for any exercise, but I've just chalked that up to my legs adjusting to doing more in general with the added swimming and biking.  Should I be giving my body a bit more rest time in the beginning to allow it time to fully recover and build stronger before amping up to 7 workouts per week?

Some Triathlon training schedules I have seen include a rest week halfway (like 12 or 13 week training programs) through them.  In your trainings, do you take those rest weeks in addition to a taper one to two weeks leading up to race day, or have you found a rest week doesn't really benefit much?  If you take a rest week, what do you do from going crazy not taking the time to get out and train?

Anyway, I still have other questions, but I think this will do for now.  Thanks in advance for your feedback/input.



2011-06-14 3:07 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
Not much time... in regards to the running question... yes, start with endurance then work on tempo. Would help if you know your Zone 2/3 HR.

You need to up your overall run distance/volume by 10% per week, and do your long run by only 10% per week. If you have only been at it two weeks you have gone from 15 to 45 minutes... I hope you are running SLOW and EASY in your HR zones 2/3. BTW- 220- your age is not accurate.

Gotta get back to work... but be careful on the running. It's the easiest way to get injured.

2011-06-14 3:09 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
I will address the running-specific questions, as that's all I know about.

Firstly, congrats on getting back into things. It takes guts and perseverance to get out the door.

Now, as to your questions regarding getting faster, here's the "secret" answer:

Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard.

What you are currently doing is, by my opinion, a good way to go about things for long-term improvement. What I'm seeing in your post is that beginning path to trouble, namely wanting to "improve on speed for races". Getting faster, in general, can almost always be tied to being consistent with running over long stretches of time. And the best way to be consistent is to get out the door as often as possible, day in and day out, week after week. And the best way to be able to do that is to not run very hard on most days. Sure, you gotta push the effort sometimes. But most days should be fun, relatively easy, and leave you feeling refreshed, invigorated, ready to turn around and do the whole thing again on a dime with no problem.

Another thing I want to address is your statement that you would rather not have a negative experience. Personally, we'd all be happier if we could avoid negative experiences, but the reality is that they happen. And you know what? That's a GOOD THING. We learn from those negative experiences. Personally, I know that when I'm in good shape, I can do 14-15 miles in the summer without carrying anything with me; no sports drink, no gels, no nothing. Heck, I can do it without water, if necessary. But I know this from my personal experiences, and by dealing with runs where I wasn't prepared for it. I learned the signs, I learned the causes and effects, and I learned how to deal with it.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying go out and purposely look to do something that creates a bad situation for yourself, but some things you're going to have to experiment with to find out what works for you. I know most people think I'm pretty dumb for how I train, but hey. I've enjoyed it, and I have an idea of what works for me.

Keep it up, be patient, stay consistent with your training, and you'll see dividends soon enough. It takes time. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is an endurance athlete.
2011-06-14 3:10 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
kevkelsar - 2011-06-14 3:50 PM

As you can see, I picked up running (again, I started last year after completing P90X, did too much too quickly and injured my knee) towards the end of April.  Because of fear of repeating last year, I decided to take a very slow and steady approach to running this time around.  Started at 15 minutes and have slowly increased to now where I'm able to run 40 minutes non stop.  I've heard that working on endurance first.  Once you have the endurance, then start working on speed (intervals, tempo runs, etc.).  Is this a good approach?  Or am I missing something that would help me improve endurance AND speed together?  I'm fairly pleased with my pacing, so far, but realize that soon I will want to improve on speed for races.  Or should I just keep going at a nice and comfortable pace for a few months, maybe many months, until my body is completely acclimated to running?

6 months of easy -- and most important, consistent -- running, with gradual increases in weekly mileage is a great way to get started.  The endurance/speed dichotomy is a false one.  I bet you can sprint 100m in 20 seconds.  If you could hold that speed for a mile you'd be running a 5:20 mile (roughly).  So you have the top-end speed to go fast -- it's a matter of being able to hold a fast pace for a longer and longer time, and that mostly happens -- especially early on -- via consistent running.

 

Also related to running, but will be important as bike and swim training progresses, what distance or time should you start to include some type of refueling during your workouts?  For example, now that I'm up to 40 minutes for a run, would it be a good idea to have a little runner bottle with a nutritional type drink?  I guess, in general, at what point (other than just listening to your body, but I would rather not have a negative experience) should refueling be added into your exercises?

You don't need nutrition for a 40 minute run.  Many people go 90 minutes or more before nutrition enters the picture.  In general, I think that most people err on the side of too much nutrition during exercise, rather than too little.  Don't be afraid of a 'negative' experience (let's call it a 'learning experience') in the form of a workout in which you suffer at the end for lack of calories.  Just don't attempt something like a 4 hour bike ride with no nutrition -- that can lead to a more significant learning experience that you'd rather not experience.

As a general guideline, I'd start with 90 minutes as the point at which you start taking in nutrition.  Then experiment from there.

Next, Triathlon training.  About 4 weeks ago a Triathlon piqued my interest and I decided to start up bike and swim training to do a Sprint first (August 6th :D ).  I have no previous experience in these two other than recreational growing up.  I have a training program leading up to the Sprint, but I have been doing more time biking and swimming than the program calls for.  I know a lot of things can be answered by simply listening to your own body, but I'd like a little input.  Too much too soon?  Slow it down and increase gradually like I have been with running?  With what I've done so far, my legs are slightly tired.  They haven't felt completely recovered for any exercise, but I've just chalked that up to my legs adjusting to doing more in general with the added swimming and biking.  Should I be giving my body a bit more rest time in the beginning to allow it time to fully recover and build stronger before amping up to 7 workouts per week?

It is OK for your legs to feel slightly tired during training.  Fatigue comes and goes. Just what for incipient injuries and if you begin to get so tired that you cannot hit your key workouts, then you need to back off.

It is possible to increase bike more than run, and swim more than bike (in terms of percentage increase per week).  The risk of injury gets less as you move from run to bike the swim, the one caveat being that if you are swimming with poor form, you can end up with shoulder problems.

 

Some Triathlon training schedules I have seen include a rest week halfway (like 12 or 13 week training programs) through them.  In your trainings, do you take those rest weeks in addition to a taper one to two weeks leading up to race day, or have you found a rest week doesn't really benefit much?  If you take a rest week, what do you do from going crazy not taking the time to get out and train?

Some do.  Some don't.  I assume by 'rest week' you mean a week of lower volume, not completely off.  If I feel that I need to back off of the volume, I do so, but I do not plan ahead of time to do so.

2011-06-14 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
Others are addressing the technical parts of training well and I agree with them for the most part.  But I want to address the wanting to avoid a negative thing.  I hate to say it but no matter how well you plan, no matter how much you research you will have a negative training day.  Last summer I was building toward my first half marathon and out for my first 11 mile run ever.  I was seriously suffering (1 of 2 runs I've ever done that I can say was truly suffering).  I couldn't make myself function and at 10 miles I shut it down and walked back to where my running group was meeting for breakfast in tears.  I got back, sat down and my coach and friends asked how it went.  My response was "It sucked".  Their response?  "We were waiting for that."  HUH?!?!?!?!  Come again?  Well, they knew, as more experienced runners that eventually I'd have a bad long run and I'd had so many good ones that it was about time.  I wish they'd told me before hand, maybe I wouldn't have been so crushed out there.  It happens, it's normal. It's all a valuable tool.  Learn from it and move on. 
2011-06-14 3:45 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
Experior - 2011-06-14 3:10 PM

Some Triathlon training schedules I have seen include a rest week halfway (like 12 or 13 week training programs) through them.  In your trainings, do you take those rest weeks in addition to a taper one to two weeks leading up to race day, or have you found a rest week doesn't really benefit much?  If you take a rest week, what do you do from going crazy not taking the time to get out and train?

Some do.  Some don't.  I assume by 'rest week' you mean a week of lower volume, not completely off.  If I feel that I need to back off of the volume, I do so, but I do not plan ahead of time to do so.

I'm a beginner also, but this raises a question for me.  It's been repeatedly stressed to me that the rest week every 4-5 weeks is critical.  It lets your body recover and refresh for the next build phase.  Michael, are you saying you disagree with that?



2011-06-14 4:04 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
sdejan - 2011-06-14 4:45 PM

Experior - 2011-06-14 3:10 PM

Some Triathlon training schedules I have seen include a rest week halfway (like 12 or 13 week training programs) through them.  In your trainings, do you take those rest weeks in addition to a taper one to two weeks leading up to race day, or have you found a rest week doesn't really benefit much?  If you take a rest week, what do you do from going crazy not taking the time to get out and train?

Some do.  Some don't.  I assume by 'rest week' you mean a week of lower volume, not completely off.  If I feel that I need to back off of the volume, I do so, but I do not plan ahead of time to do so.

I'm a beginner also, but this raises a question for me.  It's been repeatedly stressed to me that the rest week every 4-5 weeks is critical.  It lets your body recover and refresh for the next build phase.  Michael, are you saying you disagree with that?



For some people it's necessary. For others it's not. Personally, I have never purposefully took a "rest week" in the middle of a specific training cycle for a race, unless it was forced upon me by outside circumstances. But that's me. I have found that my need for "rest" is based on two things: volume and intensity. I can do a lot of volume, a lot of intensity, but not a lot of both at the same time.

If you like rest weeks, if they work for you, then keep using them. There are no absolutes in training.
2011-06-14 4:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
Scout7 - 2011-06-14 3:04 PM
sdejan - 2011-06-14 4:45 PM
Experior - 2011-06-14 3:10 PM

Some Triathlon training schedules I have seen include a rest week halfway (like 12 or 13 week training programs) through them.  In your trainings, do you take those rest weeks in addition to a taper one to two weeks leading up to race day, or have you found a rest week doesn't really benefit much?  If you take a rest week, what do you do from going crazy not taking the time to get out and train?

Some do.  Some don't.  I assume by 'rest week' you mean a week of lower volume, not completely off.  If I feel that I need to back off of the volume, I do so, but I do not plan ahead of time to do so.

I'm a beginner also, but this raises a question for me.  It's been repeatedly stressed to me that the rest week every 4-5 weeks is critical.  It lets your body recover and refresh for the next build phase.  Michael, are you saying you disagree with that?

For some people it's necessary. For others it's not. Personally, I have never purposefully took a "rest week" in the middle of a specific training cycle for a race, unless it was forced upon me by outside circumstances. But that's me. I have found that my need for "rest" is based on two things: volume and intensity. I can do a lot of volume, a lot of intensity, but not a lot of both at the same time. If you like rest weeks, if they work for you, then keep using them. There are no absolutes in training.

To me this is key.  We all look for the right way to do things but since all of our bodies are different and we all  have different goals there is just simply no one answer to any question. 

2011-06-14 4:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice

KSH - 2011-06-14 2:07 PM Not much time... in regards to the running question... yes, start with endurance then work on tempo. Would help if you know your Zone 2/3 HR. You need to up your overall run distance/volume by 10% per week, and do your long run by only 10% per week. If you have only been at it two weeks you have gone from 15 to 45 minutes... I hope you are running SLOW and EASY in your HR zones 2/3. BTW- 220- your age is not accurate. Gotta get back to work... but be careful on the running. It's the easiest way to get injured.

Oh, no, I've been running for about a month and a half, now.  I've been increasing roughly 5 minutes per week.  However, once I get to 45 minutes I'm thinking I will switch to distances instead of times.  And the next item I get will be a heart rate monitor, I've been wanting one ever since I started running again.

Thank you all for the responses, very helpful!  So, in a nutshell, listen to your body, steady increases over a longer period of time, and let the "learning experiences" come. 

2011-06-14 4:46 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
Scout7 - 2011-06-14 4:04 PM

sdejan - 2011-06-14 4:45 PM

Experior - 2011-06-14 3:10 PM

Some Triathlon training schedules I have seen include a rest week halfway (like 12 or 13 week training programs) through them.  In your trainings, do you take those rest weeks in addition to a taper one to two weeks leading up to race day, or have you found a rest week doesn't really benefit much?  If you take a rest week, what do you do from going crazy not taking the time to get out and train?

Some do.  Some don't.  I assume by 'rest week' you mean a week of lower volume, not completely off.  If I feel that I need to back off of the volume, I do so, but I do not plan ahead of time to do so.

I'm a beginner also, but this raises a question for me.  It's been repeatedly stressed to me that the rest week every 4-5 weeks is critical.  It lets your body recover and refresh for the next build phase.  Michael, are you saying you disagree with that?



For some people it's necessary. For others it's not. Personally, I have never purposefully took a "rest week" in the middle of a specific training cycle for a race, unless it was forced upon me by outside circumstances. But that's me. I have found that my need for "rest" is based on two things: volume and intensity. I can do a lot of volume, a lot of intensity, but not a lot of both at the same time.

If you like rest weeks, if they work for you, then keep using them. There are no absolutes in training.


The typical tri training calendar is built with 3 build weeks and 1 recovery week. Are you talking about a recovery week? Or a full on rest week? Two different things.

You MIGHT do a full rest week if there is enough time between events, and you can fit it in.

I have a client who did a B race earlier in the season, and I gave her a rest week after it. Why? Mostly for mental health. She needed a week to do what "she felt like doing". I wanted her to do just hang out, have fun and do whatever workout she felt like doing. It was a nice break before her next block of building for her A race.

I have another client who will get a rest week after her HIM. I'm doing this because 1) she is a novice and needs it, 2) she needs a week to lay around after near 5 months of nearly 7 days a week training, 3) she has time before her next building block to do so.

But I'm also big on people getting breaks from the day in/out training routine. I think it helps people stay in the sport longer... when they aren't blowing it out training ALL the time. Just a different way of thinking. And some people can't imagine a day of not training. *Shrug*



2011-06-14 4:47 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
kevkelsar - 2011-06-14 4:24 PM

KSH - 2011-06-14 2:07 PM Not much time... in regards to the running question... yes, start with endurance then work on tempo. Would help if you know your Zone 2/3 HR. You need to up your overall run distance/volume by 10% per week, and do your long run by only 10% per week. If you have only been at it two weeks you have gone from 15 to 45 minutes... I hope you are running SLOW and EASY in your HR zones 2/3. BTW- 220- your age is not accurate. Gotta get back to work... but be careful on the running. It's the easiest way to get injured.

Oh, no, I've been running for about a month and a half, now.  I've been increasing roughly 5 minutes per week.  However, once I get to 45 minutes I'm thinking I will switch to distances instead of times.  And the next item I get will be a heart rate monitor, I've been wanting one ever since I started running again.

Thank you all for the responses, very helpful!  So, in a nutshell, listen to your body, steady increases over a longer period of time, and let the "learning experiences" come. 



Unless you plan on doing some sort of testing for your HR zones... the HR monitor is somewhat useless. Not completely useless, but you can't train in certain zones unless you have figured out exactly what those are.

Good luck! Keep at it!



2011-06-14 6:20 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
sdejan - 2011-06-14 4:45 PM
Experior - 2011-06-14 3:10 PM

Some Triathlon training schedules I have seen include a rest week halfway (like 12 or 13 week training programs) through them.  In your trainings, do you take those rest weeks in addition to a taper one to two weeks leading up to race day, or have you found a rest week doesn't really benefit much?  If you take a rest week, what do you do from going crazy not taking the time to get out and train?

Some do.  Some don't.  I assume by 'rest week' you mean a week of lower volume, not completely off.  If I feel that I need to back off of the volume, I do so, but I do not plan ahead of time to do so.

I'm a beginner also, but this raises a question for me.  It's been repeatedly stressed to me that the rest week every 4-5 weeks is critical.  It lets your body recover and refresh for the next build phase.  Michael, are you saying you disagree with that?

Yes, I disagree with that.  I agree with what Scout and others said.  It varies.

I've sometimes taken lower volume weeks only a couple of weeks apart, but also months apart.  It varies.

2011-06-14 7:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice

Echoing Michael and others - it varies. The key is to listen to your body, and to what it is telling you about its ability to recover from the stress that you're putting it under. If you're not recovering properly from workouts, such that you're getting progressively run down, slower, lethargic, etc., then it's time to dial things back a bit. If the body is not able to recover, then there is little benefit from the training. Guidelines like "take an easier week every 4-5 weeks" are designed to be safe for the generic athlete, but might not fit your needs, due to physiology, mental fatigue, or other work or lifestyle constraints.

I find that with easing up before races, plus work/life bottlenecks, the less intense weeks tend to take care of themselves, so they kind of build themselves into my training without any additional effort. 

2011-06-14 11:48 PM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice

1. in general yes gain your endurance first. to also gain speed do tempo runs in which you run slightly below race pace, approximately 75-80% effort. tempo runs will really help improve on your racing speed over distances.

2. in general for runs under an hour hydrate before, if you have a path with water fountains great!. generally runs over 45min-60min+ i make sure to take in heed to keep myself hydrated and replenished.

3. do what your body feels, if you feel that the amount your doing is good keep at it, if you can do more try, if its too much do less. always remember to rest, i personally take 1 day every week off. be sure to get plenty sleep too!

4.im actually coming off a rest week, i just lessen the distances and go easy during it

2011-06-15 7:05 AM
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Subject: RE: Quite a few questions, looking for advice
I want to chime in on the drink question.  The real answer is no, you don't need a drink for a run of 40 minutes.  Will it hurt?  Nope not at all.  One thing I have found is that there is no reason not to be comfortable when running.  Whether that means getting new shoes well before your old ones are dead, or taking water on even a short 3 mile run.  There is no reason why you have to be uncomfortable.  Generally, I will take water with me if I am out for more than 4 miles.  I figure most races (even 5k) will have a water stop, and why not train like you race.  If I don't have water, no big deal.  I do my lunch runs of 5-6 miles without water until it gets hot.  But on the weekends, I like to travel in style, so I'll bring some water and just sip when I get thirsty.  Nothing wrong with it. 

Rarely do I use any type of sports drink unless I am out for a multi-hour bike ride.  This is only because for anything more than 1 hour, I get tired of water.
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