General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Ethics? Rss Feed  
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2011-07-06 8:17 AM

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Subject: Ethics?
So lets say you had a friend who couldn't do their half ironman.  Why is it they don't allow a transfer of ID for the race?  Let's say you took that friends ID and went and did the race.  Seems like a waste to not have someone fill the spot.  Never mind that it cost $200 some dollars.  What would you do?


2011-07-06 9:00 AM
in reply to: #3582615

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Master
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Subject: RE: Ethics?
I don't have any issues with someone else taking another's spot, especially for the money there charging.  I'd be more then happy to pay a small transfer fee for there trouble but they would rather just pocket the money and charge you full price.
 
2011-07-06 9:00 AM
in reply to: #3582615

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Subject: RE: Ethics?

Depending on the event, that person may be able to transfer their entry to the following year.  This with what Jamie and I had to do for our Rev 3 CP HIM.  We were suppose to race with everyone last year, until I hurt my achillies.

 

2011-07-06 9:02 AM
in reply to: #3582615

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Subject: RE: Ethics?

maverickbassets - 2011-07-06 9:17 AM So lets say you had a friend who couldn't do their half ironman.  Why is it they don't allow a transfer of ID for the race?  Let's say you took that friends ID and went and did the race.  Seems like a waste to not have someone fill the spot.  Never mind that it cost $200 some dollars.  What would you do?

I agree that it seems like a waste to not fill it.  IMO, any race director that doesn't allow you to at least defer until next year isn't considering customer service.  However, I also see that directors need to have a policy on longer races, where folks may not train hard enough, then get cold feet, and want out at the last minute.  I think that having such a policy is simple enough.  Have a cut off date for it.  Or simply a transfer policy.  Elite Endeavors does a great job here, 3D is horrible about it.

Do I think its wrong to use another persons name?  Yes, without a single doubt.  Its cheating.  Consider qualifications for other events, USAT rankings, etc.  Even if you have no chance of placing, its still cheating.  The person that registered for the race agreed to the director's policy.  Its a legal contract.  If they didn't agree, they shouldn't have signed it.

2011-07-06 9:14 AM
in reply to: #3582708

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Subject: RE: Ethics?
matt3liv - 2011-07-06 11:02 PM

Do I think its wrong to use another persons name?  Yes, without a single doubt.  Its cheating.  Consider qualifications for other events, USAT rankings, etc.  Even if you have no chance of placing, its still cheating.  The person that registered for the race agreed to the director's policy.  Its a legal contract.  If they didn't agree, they shouldn't have signed it.

I agree. It's wrong. That doesn't mean I might not do it, though, if I felt the 'rightness' of the circumstances outweighed the wrongness of doing it.

Not that the length or "gravity" of the race should really make a difference in the ethics ... but a lot of training and planning goes into a HIM, I don't think I'd just up and say, heck he can't use his spot ... I'll take it.

I have done that for a half-marathon, though. Expensive, sold-out, absolutely no transfers ... I don't know, it's all justification, but I don't feel badly for doing it.

2011-07-06 9:17 AM
in reply to: #3582733

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Subject: RE: Ethics?
TriAya - 2011-07-06 10:14 AM
matt3liv - 2011-07-06 11:02 PM

Do I think its wrong to use another persons name?  Yes, without a single doubt.  Its cheating.  Consider qualifications for other events, USAT rankings, etc.  Even if you have no chance of placing, its still cheating.  The person that registered for the race agreed to the director's policy.  Its a legal contract.  If they didn't agree, they shouldn't have signed it.

I agree. It's wrong. That doesn't mean I might not do it, though, if I felt the 'rightness' of the circumstances outweighed the wrongness of doing it.

Not that the length or "gravity" of the race should really make a difference in the ethics ... but a lot of training and planning goes into a HIM, I don't think I'd just up and say, heck he can't use his spot ... I'll take it.

I have done that for a half-marathon, though. Expensive, sold-out, absolutely no transfers ... I don't know, it's all justification, but I don't feel badly for doing it.

No matter how you justify it to yourself, if you use the other persons ID and don't change the registration to your name, its cheating.  Are you a cheater?



Edited by matt3liv 2011-07-06 9:18 AM


2011-07-06 9:30 AM
in reply to: #3582744

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Subject: RE: Ethics?
matt3liv - 2011-07-06 10:17 AM
TriAya - 2011-07-06 10:14 AM
matt3liv - 2011-07-06 11:02 PM

Do I think its wrong to use another persons name?  Yes, without a single doubt.  Its cheating.  Consider qualifications for other events, USAT rankings, etc.  Even if you have no chance of placing, its still cheating.  The person that registered for the race agreed to the director's policy.  Its a legal contract.  If they didn't agree, they shouldn't have signed it.

I agree. It's wrong. That doesn't mean I might not do it, though, if I felt the 'rightness' of the circumstances outweighed the wrongness of doing it.

Not that the length or "gravity" of the race should really make a difference in the ethics ... but a lot of training and planning goes into a HIM, I don't think I'd just up and say, heck he can't use his spot ... I'll take it.

I have done that for a half-marathon, though. Expensive, sold-out, absolutely no transfers ... I don't know, it's all justification, but I don't feel badly for doing it.

No matter how you justify it to yourself, if you use the other persons ID and don't change the registration to your name, its cheating.  Are you a cheater?

I've done it for a half marathon and wore the bib but not worn the chip. Is that still cheating? I was told that there is a usat rule that doesn't allow bib transfers between athletes. I just went through this with the race directors of the Patriot HIM. I asked them if they could pay my bib forward to someone on their waiting list (small list, in case of injury deferment). They were able to do that. I am still out the money but some triathlete got a gift and was able to legally use my entry.
2011-07-06 9:48 AM
in reply to: #3582615

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Subject: RE: Ethics?

Let's not forget safety. The body marking is not just because it looks cool.

Also, financially, it is the races best interest for people to pay then not show up.

 

Reference: I was an alter boy.



Edited by Detroit Dan 2011-07-06 9:49 AM
2011-07-06 11:03 AM
in reply to: #3582708

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Subject: RE: Ethics?
matt3liv - 2011-07-06 10:02 AM

maverickbassets - 2011-07-06 9:17 AM So lets say you had a friend who couldn't do their half ironman.  Why is it they don't allow a transfer of ID for the race?  Let's say you took that friends ID and went and did the race.  Seems like a waste to not have someone fill the spot.  Never mind that it cost $200 some dollars.  What would you do?

Do I think its wrong to use another persons name?  Yes, without a single doubt.  Its cheating.  Consider qualifications for other events, USAT rankings, etc.  Even if you have no chance of placing, its still cheating.  The person that registered for the race agreed to the director's policy.  Its a legal contract.  If they didn't agree, they shouldn't have signed it.

I'll come out pretty strongly on this one, in line with Matt:

1) It's cheating. Messes with USAT rankings, AG results, etc. This is the least important aspect, but started the thread. 

2) It invalidates any insurance or liability claim against the race you might have had. You misrepresented yourself.  Like if there's glass on the swim exit. If a kayak runs you over and drown. If someone steals your bike out of transition. If you get run over on course. Or struck by lightning.

3) If you hurt someone else, the race insurance might have picked it up if it is a normal racing incident. Now YOU will be liable.

4) In the case of an accident or death, the wrong people could be contacted, or wrong treatment given.

5) You're taking schwag and sustinence. Grazing on-course, post race feed, t-shirts, etc. That was someone else's. Not yours.

6) Why does anyone feel that when they enter into a contract willingly, accept the terms, that they can change them because they want to?  Airlines, hotels, courts, phone companies all have their terms. We accepted them when we buy from them. We play by them.  The terms are: if you sign up for a race, you need to race. If you don't sign up and pay for a race, you don't get to race. Just because someone else didn't comply with their terms, or worse yet, you see the opportunity to steal a race entry from them that you would have normally paid to race the event doesn't mean you should.

7) And lastly, it's not right. And if anyone needs to ask an internet forum what's right and what's not, they already know the answer.

There's a simple solution: if you don't like the terms, don't sign up. And if you don't want to pay for the race, do another one. You can always vote with your feet. That's the right solution.      

2011-07-06 1:00 PM
in reply to: #3582615

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Subject: RE: Ethics?

I completly understand the insurance and liability side of this. 

It truely seems crazy to me that given enough notice they can't transfer the information and have someone else sign a contract.  Although like DD pointed out it is in the races best interest to not have you show up, but all the stuff is already bought and paid for. 

I bet this happens much more than people will admit.

2011-07-06 8:23 PM
in reply to: #3582615

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Master
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Subject: RE: Ethics?

Hmmmm.  

  If you die or end up injured in a 70.3, IM, independent race your family will sue regardless if you signed any BS waiver on Active.  That's how our country works now.  If you hit someone, that's your concern being covered by some BS USAT coverage won't cover you.  USAT is there to serve there own litigation, not the racers.  Try collecting on there insurance if your injured. 

Road ID will more then cover you if you crash.  I'll be buying one through Team Ben after my crash at Mountain Mayhem.  I'm lucky I didn't end up dead, or paraylized.  I'll take my separated shoulder though I'm doubtful I'll ever swim easily again.

Plug for team Ben Road ID Link:  team-ben.org/358/road-id/ 

Do you actually look at USAT rankings, where are those.  I don't know the poster but is he really going to throw off national rankings with one race.  If he's a fasty then maybe, if he's like the rest of us just trying to stay alive and workout this is yet another moot point.  

Your taking swag and other nutrition off the course, how?  The original racer isn't there taking it too, so there is no difference at all.  There's only one racer.  This guy isn't hopping on the course at the Boston Marathon as a Bandit and feeding.  He only took the original spot that was paid for.

Yep we all accept terms, yet when injuries happen and you paid hundreds and a buddy can take the spot I don't see the problem. 
   
I think the original poster wasn't asking because it was biting at him in his heart.  I think he was asking if it's been done or if other's have done it.  I know I sure in the heck wouldn't ask a public forum about right and wrong.  We all have that to answer that at some point in life.  Karma is a biotch and I don't think this violates that.

     
   

   

   

  



2011-07-06 10:11 PM
in reply to: #3582615


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Subject: RE: Ethics?

Amen Rottie,

I agree that the bullsh*$ waiver you sign is just that, bs! 

If someone paid and the RD won't transfer, then have at it. 

I see more sh#t with people cutting the course, drafting, starting in the wave ahead of them so their chip time is 3 minutes faster; is this really worse?  I think not!

ben

2011-07-07 7:18 AM
in reply to: #3584062

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Subject: RE: Ethics?
borsenik9 - 2011-07-06 11:11 PM

Amen Rottie,

I agree that the bullsh*$ waiver you sign is just that, bs! 

If someone paid and the RD won't transfer, then have at it. 

I see more sh#t with people cutting the course, drafting, starting in the wave ahead of them so their chip time is 3 minutes faster; is this really worse?  I think not!

ben

It shouldn't be a relative measurement of worse or not.  Its ALL cheating.  Just like signing a legal contract is an obligation to fulfill.  

Ben, aren't you sponsored by 3D?  Isn't it a little hypocritical to say what you do above, but race for a company that doesn't have a good transfer policy, doesn't use turnaround timing mats, and does not enforce drafting?

2011-07-07 10:22 AM
in reply to: #3582615

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Master
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Subject: RE: Ethics?

I don't see the 'cheating' side of it specifically (unless you are trying to... cheat), but I do see it as a violation of a contract.  When you sign up for an event, read the rules.  If you are not allowed a transfer or a default to the next year, sorry.

Bottom line is that racing is a business.  Some businesses are better on the organizational front than others but no matter the organization, if you sign up then you agree to the terms.

2011-07-07 10:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Ethics?

Yes Matt, I am a hypocrite!  I

have no influence or care really about 3D's, or any other RD's, policies regarding transfers.  All I'm saying is I see a lot of true CHEATING- saw it at Motor City with people starting in the wave before them to "shave" 3 MINUTES off their swim time, drafting on the bike, etc, etc, etc. 

Is racing as someone else an ethical violation- sure, but it depends on who you ask.  Is it cheating- I really don't think so, although I hope it would be same age so as not to be racing out of your age group unfairly. 

ben

2011-07-07 11:06 AM
in reply to: #3584690

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Subject: RE: Ethics?
borsenik9 - 2011-07-07 11:59 AM

 All I'm saying is I see a lot of true CHEATING- saw it at Motor City with people starting in the wave before them to "shave" 3 MINUTES off their swim time, drafting on the bike, etc, etc, etc. 

So, because some people see taking another person's race number as a lesser of the evils, its okay in their books....

I stand by all of my previous comments.  



2011-07-07 1:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Ethics?

Matt-  listen, my intentions were not to get into a match with any of you.  Trust me, I learned a lot from all of you on this forum when I first started triathlon in late 2008, and continue to do so.  I do respect what you are saying, and for the record, I wouldn't do it (race under someone else's name).

My only point is that there are a lot worse things that go on at most, if not all, tris that are much more dangerous, and are also clear cut cheating.  Does that make the lesser of the two any better- no, you are correct. 

peace

ben

2011-07-07 5:26 PM
in reply to: #3584972

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Subject: RE: Ethics?
borsenik9 - 2011-07-07 2:06 PM

Matt-  listen, my intentions were not to get into a match with any of you.  Trust me, I learned a lot from all of you on this forum when I first started triathlon in late 2008, and continue to do so.  I do respect what you are saying, and for the record, I wouldn't do it (race under someone else's name).

My only point is that there are a lot worse things that go on at most, if not all, tris that are much more dangerous, and are also clear cut cheating.  Does that make the lesser of the two any better- no, you are correct. 

peace

ben



Ben your a sweetheart .Even if you did race under someone else's name you would still be a sweety Can't wait to see you in Tawas.
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