What do you believe, or not? Another religion thread ... (Page 4)

If that is true,
then the claims of Christianity are false.

Jesus is the final revelation.
All of the true "revelations" since then have been about illuminating
the final revelation, not in being given a totally new one.
Any claim otherwise is false and is merely heresy. 

If Jesus is not the final revelation,
then again he was either a liar or lunatic
and the entire system of Christian belief falls apart.

To add on here to what I believe,
I believe that the Eucharist (communion that begins as bread and wine)
is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ.
Not a symbol or metaphor, but the actual physical presence of God.
If not, then again the entire system will fall apart.
It's what the early Church believed, it's what I believe.

As far as how I got here,
it's been a journey of faith and reason,
like two wings on the same bird flying toward truth.
Reason has informed my faith
and faith has illuminated my reason.

If not for the Church, we might well still be stuck in the dead end
the rationalists found themselves in back in the 12th and 13th centuries.
It was the Church that baptized Aristotle and in doing so
unleashed the explosion of scientific inquiry and understanding in the West.

The Church, the Body of Christ, has contributed the greatest good to humanity
of any single institution in history.
Nothing else even comes close. 

Let me disavow you of that distrust of tolerance, acceptance and respect for Christians on BT. I have never seen a thread where Christians were singled out or treated poorly. In fact, the vast majority of BT users are Christians. Fear not, nobody on BT is going to victimize you for your beliefs.

But I somewhat understand your trepidation. I read an article just a few days ago that cited a study that says that atheists are the least trusted people in the US, even on the same level as rapists. Still, I don't let other people's misgivings about my beliefs, or lack thereof, to silence my voice.

I do believe and expect that, at least within BT, respect for others is the rule of law. You should feel safe in assuming the same, even more so since I've never seen any user get offended when someone says "I am a believer in Christ."  It doesn't seem like the opposite is always true.

I tend to build on what Jesus himself supposedly said, and has to be taken with some poetic license due to language usage and translation. Most Bibles have him saying something to the effect of "I am the way, the truth, and the life". That is different from I am the only Son of God. Seems to me Jesus was a pretty smart guy and chose his words carefully. Too bad I wasn't there to hear what he actually said. I have a bit of trouble with other men's interpretations of what they've read. I also have trouble with various editors of the book over the centuries.

But, that's why they call it faith

Or it doesn't say much for man. Maybe we've gone way off from our creators intention for us. What with free will and all that silliness.

I fully confess in posting this thread that I was hoping to draw Don out of the woodwork. You have been my lamp and my teacher. I agree with everything he has posted so far, with two exceptions: I'm not sure about transsubstantiation, nor am I convinced that the Church (because I know by this he means the Catholic Church) is the authority of Christ in the world today.

I grew up believing in some sort of God or gods, the existence thereof. From the age of 8-13 I was a committed atheist, to the point of really coming down on and hashing it out with believers. God bless them for putting up with me. At 13, God, and by this I mean God as expressed through the Judeo-Christian traditions and canon, appeared to me.

Since then, there have been many tides and turns, although I've never recanted the Christian faith. At times, the best I could do was believe there was some kind of flow and direction in the universe. I have never ceased spiritual practices--prayer, meditation, reading, reflection--no matter what state of belief or unbelief.

I do believe Scripture is authoritative, although the history of construction of the Jewish and Christian canons (and the very plural) means to me some writings may have been omitted and some that are there perhaps should not be. Translations, ex post facto reporting and hand-copying present further difficulty. I am not certain which parts of the Bible are to be taken literally, allegorically, metaphorically, etc., but I continue to seek and pray for wisdom, discernment and direction every day.

If I had to boil my belief down simply, it is this: to love.

I have no idea where anyone else is going in this life or after; it's not my call and BOY AM I GLAD IT'S NOT. I would have already sent everyone to all the wrong places. Anyone who remotely knows me knows that I am completely incapable of understanding or following extremely basic instructions that a five-year-old couldn't possibly mistake, so it's a very good thing I'm not the judge of anything.

What you do and where you go is your problem. My problem, or responsibility if you will, is to bear witness of what I perceive to be the truth by SHOWING, DOING, and BEING ... love.

Do I suck at it? Sure. Often. I'm not who I ought to be, but I sure ain't who I was, either, and all I can do is try.

"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27

Calvin & Hobbes:

C: Do you believe in the devil? You know, a supreme evil being dedicated to the temptation, corruption, and destruction of man?

H: I'm not sure that man needs the help.

Well, that was just one example.
Plenty more.

Take for instance Jesus' claim that he could forgive sin.
It was understood that only God can do that.

As far as being comfortable with the historical accuracy of scripture,
remember that the New Testament is a cross reference from various communities.
You have the three synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke,
each being written in a different community.
Then you have the gospel of John coming out of another unique community.
Then of course you have the letters of Paul.

Throw in the writing of the early Church Fathers  many of whom knew the Apostles,
and then for good measure add the Jewish/Roman historian Flavius Josephus
who lived at the time and independently confirms several historical facts about Jesus
and you have probably the most complete historical record of any person in ancient history
and of the early Church community that he established.

Of course, you still might not believe Jesus' claims.
That's different though then believing that the early believers didn't believe Jesus' claims.

Yes, this has always confused me as well.

A good place to start is to read John 6.

Ask yourself why many of Jesus' disciples could not accept this teaching and left him.

Read the history of the Early Church Fathers regarding the Eucharist.

Find a Catholic church, chapel, or monastery, and sit in front of the Tabernacle,
or in front of the exposed host in Eucharistic Adoration,
for an hour or so and preferably alone.

Rinse and repeat.

If "Heaven" and "Hell" are just labels...  Then I'll gladly go to the place that has Albert Einstein, Niels Bohr, Jonas Salk, my friends & relatives and many others are, instead of the place that has Jeffrey Dahmer and other "saved" rapists/murderers.  If that place is called "Hell"...  OK by me.

I'll have no religious regrets in life and I doubt I'll have any in death as well.

Thank you, as always, for the guidance and suggestions.

I would bet a box of Pop Tarts none of that will change my mind, but I remain, as always, teachable and open to conviction.

OK.

I like strawberry ones.

Can't. Stop. Raffing.

Such a great thread!  So many different ideas.  I use to be Lutheran.  I did some soul searching in my mid twenties because I was looking so hard for something that was missing and in all honesty, I was hiding behind religion, hoping it would change me or protect me from what I feared I was.  Once I accepted myself, I found I did not believe in the religion (notice I didn't say God) anymore, and the more I looked and listened to other people, the more I believed religion was man made.  I do believe in Gods, as an abstract, more of a force of nature.  I worship the Earth and earth bound energies.  I believe we are all interconnected and we are all part of the whole.  Very similar to what Renee put in her original post.   I call my self Wiccan / Shamanism...but I also see some truths in eastern thought.  

I have loved reading everything (including yours) and am most of all impressed (though not at all surprised) by the grace and politeness shown on this thread.

Now, I'm not writing this just because you showed up , but ...

I cannot be part of a faith (or really any other) community that discriminates in service to others (leadership and teaching I consider service) on the basis of gender, orientation, ethnic origin, etc. Unfortunately, this tends to exclude most of the communities who otherwise believe, observe, and worship exactly as I do.

This comes from a place of deep conviction, not PC, cultural trendiness, or anything else.

Even some of the 12 didn't always get what Jesus was saying, and they were there.

Many of my LOL moments in reading the Gospels have come from what the apostles supposedly said or did in response to Christ's teachings and miracles. Generally, it boils down to, "Duh! Eh ... what?"

I believe that God sent his only son Jesus Christ to Earth to die for all the sins of mankind. I also believe that the only way into Heaven is to have a relationship with Jesus Christ. I believe there is a hell. I believe that we all have the "free will" or choice to choose what we believe or we don't believe. I believe in an afterlife and I also believe that there has to be more than the life on this Earth.  I believe the Bible.

I am not the poster child for Christianity, no one is, but that is what I believe.

and yes, I say Merry Christmas to all!

Cookies are God!  believe me, I am at the altar now, and am gearing up (by eating them by the dozen...and bakers dozen at that) for the cookie fast that starts in January, when I start training again.  

I have been thinking much about what you posted, but it all keeps coming back to Pop Tarts. In fact, I just bet the body and blood of Christ against a box of Pop Tarts in this thread.