Creatine
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2012-02-19 9:20 AM |
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2012-02-19 9:47 AM in reply to: #4055273 |
Expert 906 Brookings South Dakota | Subject: RE: Creatine I vaguely remember hearing something about what you are asking. Unfortunately I believe it was mentioned that the extra water stored from the creatine was simply not available for hydration purposes during endurance sport. That could be incorrect, but I believe I remember reading that at some point in the past. |
2012-02-19 10:11 AM in reply to: #4055302 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Creatine ipull400watts - 2012-02-19 9:47 AM I vaguely remember hearing something about what you are asking. Unfortunately I believe it was mentioned that the extra water stored from the creatine was simply not available for hydration purposes during endurance sport. That could be incorrect, but I believe I remember reading that at some point in the past.
Fact. This is why cargo-loading is way more beneficial. With carb loading you store 3 grams of water per gram of carbohydrate you take in. So as you start to carb load, you are hydrating your body as well, and your body can use these fluids when need be. |
2012-02-19 10:14 AM in reply to: #4055327 |
Master 1793 Essex Jct, VT | Subject: RE: Creatine bcagle25 - 2012-02-19 11:11 AM ipull400watts - 2012-02-19 9:47 AM I vaguely remember hearing something about what you are asking. Unfortunately I believe it was mentioned that the extra water stored from the creatine was simply not available for hydration purposes during endurance sport. That could be incorrect, but I believe I remember reading that at some point in the past.
Fact. This is why cargo-loading is way more beneficial. With carb loading you store 3 grams of water per gram of carbohydrate you take in. So as you start to carb load, you are hydrating your body as well, and your body can use these fluids when need be. Doesn't sound very aero though. |
2012-02-19 10:14 AM in reply to: #4055327 |
Expert 906 Brookings South Dakota | Subject: RE: Creatine Right on about the glycogen and water link. Edited by ipull400watts 2012-02-19 10:15 AM |
2012-02-19 10:25 AM in reply to: #4055327 |
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2012-02-19 10:38 AM in reply to: #4055273 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Creatine FoggyGoggles - 2012-02-19 11:20 AM I recently read Macca's book and something jumped out at me when he covered fluid intake prior to races. He mentioned that a lot of people make the mistake of trying to up their fluids to properly hydrate their bodies a few days ahead of the race. His position was you needed to start two weeks ahead so the body stores the water at the intercellular level. Based on what I've read, most people just need to drink to thirst in order to be properly hydrated. After thinking about that (and signing up for my first 70.3) I looked back on my old bodybuilding days and remembered that creatine does that exact thing to a body. It also increases ATP levels and helps with protein synthesis. The one "hitch" is it can also increase total body mass due to the extra water retention. I started looking at different articles and found this interesting read from a Journal of Athletic Medicine and it now has my interest a little more piqued. Granted, the article is more positioned towards anaerobic sports, but I could see how it could also benefit the endurance athlete... more water at the intercellular and extracellular level means your body can function at higher demands. Increased ATP will also help output. So what am I missing? The increased body weight is a detriment to running and, to a lesser extent, cycling. Assuming that one started with more water in their system and could access this water for hydration, it would simply prolong the length of time it would take before one needed to consume water (drink to thirst) while racing. As to the increased ATP, this is unlikely to be the limiter in aerobic energy production. Shane |
2012-02-19 10:39 AM in reply to: #4055327 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Creatine bcagle25 - 2012-02-19 12:11 PM This is why cargo-loading is way more beneficial. Only if one plans to not consume any calories while racing. Shane |
2012-02-19 10:42 AM in reply to: #4055349 |
Expert 906 Brookings South Dakota | Subject: RE: Creatine FoggyGoggles - 2012-02-19 10:25 AM bcagle25 - 2012-02-19 10:11 AM ipull400watts - 2012-02-19 9:47 AM I vaguely remember hearing something about what you are asking. Unfortunately I believe it was mentioned that the extra water stored from the creatine was simply not available for hydration purposes during endurance sport. That could be incorrect, but I believe I remember reading that at some point in the past.
Fact. This is why cargo-loading is way more beneficial. With carb loading you store 3 grams of water per gram of carbohydrate you take in. So as you start to carb load, you are hydrating your body as well, and your body can use these fluids when need be. Interestingly enough, the latest issue of USA Triathlon had a spot (on page 48) that mentions carb loading as a misconception despite the years of people following it. (Yep, this was another article that made me dive a little deeper into the creatine angle.) Your post did prompt me to take a look further into this and found an article from marathontraining.com that supports it. It also mentioned carb loading should be done carefully as the carbs draw the water into the gastrointestinal tract and can cause upset stomach and diahrrea, which nobody wants! http://www.marathontraining.com/articles/art_39th.htm
Well, CHO loading does do what it is supposed to do. Is it the best idea? Maybe not. I find many do it incorrectly however. There are ways to cause your body to store more CHO, such as loading and fasted training. |
2012-02-19 3:39 PM in reply to: #4055349 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Creatine FoggyGoggles - 2012-02-19 10:25 AM bcagle25 - 2012-02-19 10:11 AM ipull400watts - 2012-02-19 9:47 AM I vaguely remember hearing something about what you are asking. Unfortunately I believe it was mentioned that the extra water stored from the creatine was simply not available for hydration purposes during endurance sport. That could be incorrect, but I believe I remember reading that at some point in the past.
Fact. This is why cargo-loading is way more beneficial. With carb loading you store 3 grams of water per gram of carbohydrate you take in. So as you start to carb load, you are hydrating your body as well, and your body can use these fluids when need be. Interestingly enough, the latest issue of USA Triathlon had a spot (on page 48) that mentions carb loading as a misconception despite the years of people following it. (Yep, this was another article that made me dive a little deeper into the creatine angle.) Your post did prompt me to take a look further into this and found an article from marathontraining.com that supports it. It also mentioned carb loading should be done carefully as the carbs draw the water into the gastrointestinal tract and can cause upset stomach and diahrrea, which nobody wants! http://www.marathontraining.com/articles/art_39th.htm
Yes indeed while all of your articles do make the claims that carb loading isn't the best way, they are all secondary articles. i.e. anyone can write anything and claim they are right, and maybe they are for that person. But if you look into more articles, that of primary research and look into in-depth studies the results will overwhelming point to carb loading as the main way to go. This is my one grip about people going to articles for training. If you are, go into the articles that are backed up with many studies and are scholarly articles. Any article in "xyz" magazine will say whatever they want about whatever claim they want to make. Here are some good links to do further research on the topic Performance Training Journal (NSCA) Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise (ASCM) International Journal of Sports Nutrition American Journal of Clinical Nutrition FWIW, I am currently studying a minor in sport nutrition and doing a semester long research project on carb-loading versus fat-loading, along with some of the myths and why fat-loading just does not work. I would love to gladly add more on this thread and answer any questions you may have. |
2012-02-19 4:06 PM in reply to: #4055273 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
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2012-02-19 10:33 PM in reply to: #4055273 |
Master 1793 Essex Jct, VT | Subject: RE: Creatine http://jap.physiology.org/content/95/2/584.short http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/4/1284.short I would say that the research seems to be conflicting at best. These are just two of several that I found via Google Scholar. |
2012-02-19 11:57 PM in reply to: #4056090 |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Creatine rsmoylan - 2012-02-19 10:33 PM http://jap.physiology.org/content/95/2/584.short http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/4/1284.short I would say that the research seems to be conflicting at best. These are just two of several that I found via Google Scholar. so we have a research study done with 8 women, and then 7 tt cyclists...what really does this prove? "Although we cannot completely discount the possibility that CHO loading has a worthwhile effect on the performance of competitive cyclists under conditions similar to our trial, our data suggest that this effect is small and, at best, only likely to rearrange the finishing order of the top cyclists in the field" this is all i need to know that this study really wouldn't gear me away from carb-loading. from a science point of view all signs point to yes that increasing your carb intake before exercise will delay the onset of fatigue, increase in performance, well that is a whole new issue really. |
2012-02-20 7:25 AM in reply to: #4056120 |
Master 1793 Essex Jct, VT | Subject: RE: Creatine bcagle25 - 2012-02-20 12:57 AM rsmoylan - 2012-02-19 10:33 PM http://jap.physiology.org/content/95/2/584.short http://jap.physiology.org/content/88/4/1284.short I would say that the research seems to be conflicting at best. These are just two of several that I found via Google Scholar. so we have a research study done with 8 women, and then 7 tt cyclists...what really does this prove? "Although we cannot completely discount the possibility that CHO loading has a worthwhile effect on the performance of competitive cyclists under conditions similar to our trial, our data suggest that this effect is small and, at best, only likely to rearrange the finishing order of the top cyclists in the field" this is all i need to know that this study really wouldn't gear me away from carb-loading. from a science point of view all signs point to yes that increasing your carb intake before exercise will delay the onset of fatigue, increase in performance, well that is a whole new issue really. Not trying to gear anyone away from anything. Just saying that research is showing mixed results. I've seen some studies that show a 2-3% increase in performance. Some things I took away from the plethera of information out there: 1. Proper Carb loading is difficult to do. 2. Requires a 1-4 day taper. 3. More difficult for wormen. 4. It doesn't always work. Plus it has been recommended to use simple sugars as the source of carbs. One can argue about the merits, or lack thereof of this kind of diet. Like I said, I don't have a horse in this race. I eat plenty of carbs leading into a race. It helps my mind, just as much as my body. Just pointing out that research is showing some mixed results. |
2012-02-20 7:27 AM in reply to: #4055273 |
Veteran 203 Traveling | Subject: RE: Creatine I used to take Creatine when lifting weights. It made ME stronger and really filled up the muscle bellies. For other people it did not work. It also made me feel less flexible and caused significant gastric distress. Back in the day you had to load the creatine with very high dosages for 2 weeks and then you could reduce it to a maintenance dose. Many of my friends who did not get the results failed to do this loading. I think things have changed with the various formulations of Creatine, but I would be cautious about taking something that could cause gastric distress on before a race. |
2012-02-20 7:34 AM in reply to: #4055273 |
Pro 4353 Wallingford, PA | Subject: RE: Creatine I happened to be doing some research for a class and remembered this thread... I just found this abstract that suggests that creatine + glycerol might be beneficial for runners in hot conditions.... I'm no expert, and this is just an abstract, so I would be curious what others think of this study. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22176668 |
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2012-02-20 8:03 AM in reply to: #4055637 |
Champion 9407 Montague Gold Mines, Nova Scotia | Subject: RE: Creatine bcagle25 - 2012-02-19 5:39 PM Yes indeed while all of your articles do make the claims that carb loading isn't the best way, they are all secondary articles. i.e. anyone can write anything and claim they are right, and maybe they are for that person. But if you look into more articles, that of primary research and look into in-depth studies the results will overwhelming point to carb loading as the main way to go. This is my one grip about people going to articles for training. If you are, go into the articles that are backed up with many studies and are scholarly articles. Any article in "xyz" magazine will say whatever they want about whatever claim they want to make. Here are some good links to do further research on the topic Performance Training Journal (NSCA) Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise (ASCM) International Journal of Sports Nutrition American Journal of Clinical Nutrition While I would love to think that most people could read and understand scientific articles, the reality is that this is just not the case. As such, many people will continue to rely on secondary articles in order to attempt stay abreast of research in exercise physiology. FWIW, I am currently studying a minor in sport nutrition and doing a semester long research project on carb-loading versus fat-loading, along with some of the myths and why fat-loading just does not work. I would love to gladly add more on this thread and answer any questions you may have. My biggest concerns with carb loading: 1) It's hard to do; 2) The research seems to indicate that it is effective only if the athlete plans to restrict carb intake during the event; 3) It results in weight gain. Shane |
2012-02-20 8:55 AM in reply to: #4055662 |
Master 1603 Connecticut | Subject: RE: Creatine Sharyn5 - 2012-02-19 5:06 PM While it causes water retention in the muscles, it has the potential to cause dehydration. I take jack3d on occasion as a preworkout stim, and that has creatine. I sometimes get bloated from the water retention, so it's not a product I steadily take. Interesting thoughts though on this. Be careful of various packaged supplement mixes if you aren't sure of the safety and efficacy of the various ingredients in them. Also, be aware that some products may contain ingredients that are banned by WADA for competitive athletes. I bring this up, because Jacked is a perfect example. It contains methylhexanamine, which is a stimulant on the banned substance list. |
2012-02-20 9:48 AM in reply to: #4055273 |
Regular 92 Jacksonville | Subject: RE: Creatine I've found, for me, creatine is great for 1-rep max strength gains but doesn't do anything for endurance sports. Beta-Alanine and L-Carnitine give me much better results for anything aerobic. I also like the Beta-Alanine tingles. |
2012-02-20 10:29 AM in reply to: #4055662 |
Champion 10668 Tacoma, Washington | Subject: RE: Creatine Sharyn5 - 2012-02-19 2:06 PM While it causes water retention in the muscles, it has the potential to cause dehydration. I take jack3d on occasion as a preworkout stim, and that has creatine. I sometimes get bloated from the water retention, so it's not a product I steadily take. Interesting thoughts though on this. The creatine in there isn't doing jack for you. As stated elsewhere in the thread, you have to load and then keep on a maintenance dose. |
2012-02-20 10:56 AM in reply to: #4056568 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
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2012-02-20 11:34 AM in reply to: #4056602 |
Elite 4048 Gilbert, Az. | Subject: RE: Creatine Sharyn5 - 2012-02-20 8:56 AM I guess being on the WADA banned list doesn't dissuade you either?Johnbriderdt - 2012-02-20 11:29 AM Sharyn5 - 2012-02-19 2:06 PM While it causes water retention in the muscles, it has the potential to cause dehydration. I take jack3d on occasion as a preworkout stim, and that has creatine. I sometimes get bloated from the water retention, so it's not a product I steadily take. Interesting thoughts though on this. The creatine in there isn't doing jack for you. As stated elsewhere in the thread, you have to load and then keep on a maintenance dose. you're so punny. i don't disagree, but it is enough to cause bloating at times. i don't take it often.
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2012-02-20 1:06 PM in reply to: #4056515 |
Expert 1121 Chicago | Subject: RE: Creatine Ghostfacekiller - 2012-02-20 9:48 AM I've found, for me, creatine is great for 1-rep max strength gains but doesn't do anything for endurance sports. Beta-Alanine and L-Carnitine give me much better results for anything aerobic. I also like the Beta-Alanine tingles. I haven't read up on this in a while, but my recollection is consistent with yours that Beta-Alanine is effective for endurance. In addition to the handful of comments that creatine won't help with endurance, I also recall that in at least some studies creatine was shown not only to be ineffective for endurance, but also potentially dangerous to the kidneys or liver. |
2012-02-20 1:30 PM in reply to: #4055273 |
Expert 2547 The Woodlands, TX | Subject: RE: Creatine FoggyGoggles - 2012-02-19 9:20 AM I recently read Macca's book and something jumped out at me when he covered fluid intake prior to races. He mentioned that a lot of people make the mistake of trying to up their fluids to properly hydrate their bodies a few days ahead of the race. His position was you needed to start two weeks ahead so the body stores the water at the intercellular level. After thinking about that (and signing up for my first 70.3) I looked back on my old bodybuilding days and remembered that creatine does that exact thing to a body. It also increases ATP levels and helps with protein synthesis. The one "hitch" is it can also increase total body mass due to the extra water retention. I started looking at different articles and found this interesting read from a Journal of Athletic Medicine and it now has my interest a little more piqued. Granted, the article is more positioned towards anaerobic sports, but I could see how it could also benefit the endurance athlete... more water at the intercellular and extracellular level means your body can function at higher demands. Increased ATP will also help output. So what am I missing? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155510/
Hyper hydration isn't new. A number of pros/elites in various sports do this in some form or fashion. I try and do it before any of my hot races, although sometimes I fall short with travel/kids etc getting me off schedul. While you do gain some weight from fluid, it more than compensates for itself since the fluid in sitting in the muscles ready to be used versus in your throat/stomach/intestines waiting to get processed. (Glycerol was a big product a few years back for this very reason. It helped the body retain water. I don't remember if they banned it or not, but I want to say it got classified as a performance enhancer for this reason. ) In conditions like Kona, staying hydrated is one of the biggest factors for anyone on the course, and for someone like macca, it's the difference between winning and not. And weight on the run is of little consequence there too as a net loss in water starts right way, so by the run most have lost weight. The creatine angle has been along for a long time as well. Usually for what we do it just ends up with cramping of some sort. creatine is part of the immediate energy that is stored right in the muscle. For those who are about to bust out their biology books, ATP-CP is Adenosine Tri Phosphate - Creatine Phosphate. It's the energy system that lasts for about 5 seconds or so, used for explosive or emergency energy. (Throwing a punch, sprinting out of a burning building or exploding on benchpress). Your body doesn't have time to break down sugar through glycolysis and get it to the muscle in time, so this is immediate energy. In our zone 1/2/3 exercise it's pretty much never used or trained for. It helps grow muscle size, but its the wrong kind of muscle so it's not useful for what we do. That's more of a Usain Bolt type of energy system. Would I recommend a prerace hydration strategy? Heck yes. Would I use creatine? nope. my 2 cents |
2012-02-20 3:57 PM in reply to: #4055273 |
34 | Subject: RE: Creatine for what it's worth. if you are caught with Creatine at BUD's (Navy Seal school) You will be kicked out. Cramping out the wazoo....don't do it. |
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