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2012-10-16 9:16 AM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
jkintn - 2012-10-16 7:26 AM

Maybe I should avoid reading/following this thread...I am training for my first marathon December 1.  I'm following the Hal Higdon Novice 2 plan.  So far, so good with staying on plan and completing the runs.  I'm currently in week 12 but swapped the long runs from weeks 11 and 12 to do a half marathon last weekend.  I do all my training in the morning so it's getting tough to knock out the 8 mile mid-week runs before work.  This is by far the most I've ever run in training as most my prior half marathon training weeks ranged from 18-24 mpw.  I've been battling some foot and knee pain and hoping to just get to the start line on race day without any injuries derailing the attempt.

On a positive note, I did PR my half marathon last weekend even without any sort of taper/rest leading into the race.  

My stretch goal is four hours.

 

I followed a similar path. Higdon's Novice 1 for me. I was training all summer before work, but as the bigger weeks approached I started to have more trouble squeezing it all in. Then my PF ended my 1st attempt sadly. I think the plan had me in good enough shape to finish though.



2012-10-16 9:38 AM
in reply to: #4454082

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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

I completed my first marathon on Sunday (Toronto Waterfront - a basically flat course).

I was training for a 4:25 to 4:30 finish.  Or, more accurately, I was hoping for a 4:25 to 4:30 finish, and training with that hope in mind, but my training was pretty inconsistent; I probably missed 20% of my scheduled mileage. 

I executed the first 13 miles according to plan, but slowed down by 15-20 seconds per mile through the next seven.  Even "virgin territory" miles 21, 22 and 23 were tolerable - actually, easier than the last mile in my longest training run, a 20 miler.  The last three miles, however, were a whole different story, and had a lot of walking.  I had the lungs, I had the energy, but I didn't have the leg muscles.  It wasn't so much that they were drained as that they were stiff.  I had to stop and stretch every few hundred yards. The range of motion in my knees felt like it had halved, and my "run" turned into more of a shuffle.

The collapse in the last three miles, with the walking and frequent stretch breaks, meant I crossed the line in 4:50.

Am I disappointed?  For a moment I was.  Then they gave me my finisher's medal, and I realized something: I FINISHED A MARATHON.  My perspective was skewed by reading so much about Ironmans, 70.3s and other races I've never done.  I did my first triathlon in June - a mini-sprint - and a proper sprint (750m/20k/5k) in July.  One year ago, I could not run for 90 seconds straight, was carrying around forty pounds more than I am today, and the thought of starting a marathon - never mind finishing one - was laughable.

So now I have a marathon PR - and a realistic chance of doing better next time.  I may have "failed" to meet my marathon goals, but taking a longer view of it, I've succeeded at doing something I once thought impossible, and so maybe one year from now, I will be reflecting on under-performing in an activity that I can't even conceive as possible today.

2012-10-16 10:07 AM
in reply to: #4455495


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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
JoshR - 2012-10-16 9:16 AM
jkintn - 2012-10-16 7:26 AM

Maybe I should avoid reading/following this thread...I am training for my first marathon December 1.  I'm following the Hal Higdon Novice 2 plan.  So far, so good with staying on plan and completing the runs.  I'm currently in week 12 but swapped the long runs from weeks 11 and 12 to do a half marathon last weekend.  I do all my training in the morning so it's getting tough to knock out the 8 mile mid-week runs before work.  This is by far the most I've ever run in training as most my prior half marathon training weeks ranged from 18-24 mpw.  I've been battling some foot and knee pain and hoping to just get to the start line on race day without any injuries derailing the attempt.

On a positive note, I did PR my half marathon last weekend even without any sort of taper/rest leading into the race.  

My stretch goal is four hours.

 

I followed a similar path. Higdon's Novice 1 for me. I was training all summer before work, but as the bigger weeks approached I started to have more trouble squeezing it all in. Then my PF ended my 1st attempt sadly. I think the plan had me in good enough shape to finish though.

At what point did PF derail your attempt?  I had on the onset of it about 3-4 weeks ago.  It was mostly painful first thing in the morning and at the beginning of runs but then warmed up/loosened up and was ok to complete the run.  I went to a chiro for adjustments, ultrasound, cold laser, etc.  I also wear a night splint when sleeping.  My PF is mostly gone but now the pain has moved to top of foot on outside lateral edge.  Also some pain sneaking around outside of ankle.  I'm still getting treatment without ramping back my mileage at this point.  I don't want a major injury that will take months to recover from but I also am not ready to throw in the towel on the marathon attempt just yet.  I need a ton of swim/bike work this winter so I will be significantly ramping back my run miles if/when I get to the marathon.

2012-10-16 10:18 AM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

The son of my boss is running a marathon every month this year (actually two have been 50k Ultra's).

That is pretty impressive, might not be healthy though.

 

For me, I have not done a Marathon, but already signed up for a 50k in February.

I know it's crazy, goal is to finish in under 7.5 hours!

2012-10-16 10:23 AM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

No matter how you cut it, most successful marathoners run frequently. This is generally a minimum of 6 days a week. You can't fake marathon training. So far, I've done two marathons, and my third is NYC in just under three weeks. My first two marathons haven't gone as well as I would have liked, although my placing at Boston in April was about what I expected. However, I've learned from both of those races, and have a good idea of what to shoot for and what to expect in New York.

A big part of the marathon is correct pacing and being strong mentally. Based on training and prior races, most people have a general idea of what pace to run. However, there are many people who go out too hard, thinking 'this feels easy.' The first half of a marathon should feel easy, and ideally you should then build from there through the finish. Everyone hurts in that last 10k, including pros. This is where the mental game comes in. Are you one who gives in to the pain, or do you trust your training and know that your body can handle the pace even if you have to endure your legs screaming at you?

My goal for NYC is to take Jens Voigt's advice in the last 10k, just thinking 'SHUT UP LEGS!'

2012-10-16 10:39 AM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
Marathons are very humbling!  I ran my first marathon back in 1987.  Before gels and power bars.  Yeah, I'm old.  Anyway, I was a decent runner back then but never though much about nutrition (actually, most runner's didn't).  My goal was to break 3-hours.  I was at mile 20 at around 2:15...finished around 3:45.  90-minutes for the final 10K...though much of of I was sitting on a curb wondering what happened.  While I continued running and racing I did not run another marathon until 1995. 


2012-10-16 10:58 AM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
jkintn - 2012-10-16 9:07 AM
JoshR - 2012-10-16 9:16 AM
jkintn - 2012-10-16 7:26 AM

Maybe I should avoid reading/following this thread...I am training for my first marathon December 1.  I'm following the Hal Higdon Novice 2 plan.  So far, so good with staying on plan and completing the runs.  I'm currently in week 12 but swapped the long runs from weeks 11 and 12 to do a half marathon last weekend.  I do all my training in the morning so it's getting tough to knock out the 8 mile mid-week runs before work.  This is by far the most I've ever run in training as most my prior half marathon training weeks ranged from 18-24 mpw.  I've been battling some foot and knee pain and hoping to just get to the start line on race day without any injuries derailing the attempt.

On a positive note, I did PR my half marathon last weekend even without any sort of taper/rest leading into the race.  

My stretch goal is four hours.

 

I followed a similar path. Higdon's Novice 1 for me. I was training all summer before work, but as the bigger weeks approached I started to have more trouble squeezing it all in. Then my PF ended my 1st attempt sadly. I think the plan had me in good enough shape to finish though.

At what point did PF derail your attempt?  I had on the onset of it about 3-4 weeks ago.  It was mostly painful first thing in the morning and at the beginning of runs but then warmed up/loosened up and was ok to complete the run.  I went to a chiro for adjustments, ultrasound, cold laser, etc.  I also wear a night splint when sleeping.  My PF is mostly gone but now the pain has moved to top of foot on outside lateral edge.  Also some pain sneaking around outside of ankle.  I'm still getting treatment without ramping back my mileage at this point.  I don't want a major injury that will take months to recover from but I also am not ready to throw in the towel on the marathon attempt just yet.  I need a ton of swim/bike work this winter so I will be significantly ramping back my run miles if/when I get to the marathon.

 

I made it about 22 miles in and by then I couldn't put a lot of weight on my foot. Thankfully someone took pity on me and offered me a ride back to the finish because I don't know if I could have walked the last 4 miles.

2012-10-16 11:19 AM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
fishwallop - 2012-10-16 9:38 AM

 

Am I disappointed?  For a moment I was.  Then they gave me my finisher's medal, and I realized something: I FINISHED A MARATHON.  My perspective was skewed by reading so much about Ironmans, 70.3s and other races I've never done.  I did my first triathlon in June - a mini-sprint - and a proper sprint (750m/20k/5k) in July.  One year ago, I could not run for 90 seconds straight, was carrying around forty pounds more than I am today, and the thought of starting a marathon - never mind finishing one - was laughable.

So now I have a marathon PR - and a realistic chance of doing better next time.  I may have "failed" to meet my marathon goals, but taking a longer view of it, I've succeeded at doing something I once thought impossible, and so maybe one year from now, I will be reflecting on under-performing in an activity that I can't even conceive as possible today.

This... I was severely disappointed in my time but I did what a year ago I thought I would never do.  Maybe some day I will change my mind about marathon's and try again and next time I will know better what I have to do to prepare.  Or maybe I will be content with doing tri's.  we will see where life leads me.

I did a recovery swim this morning, felt good to be back in the pool. 

2012-10-16 12:41 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
jkintn - 2012-10-16 10:07 AM
JoshR - 2012-10-16 9:16 AM
jkintn - 2012-10-16 7:26 AM

Maybe I should avoid reading/following this thread...I am training for my first marathon December 1.  I'm following the Hal Higdon Novice 2 plan.  So far, so good with staying on plan and completing the runs.  I'm currently in week 12 but swapped the long runs from weeks 11 and 12 to do a half marathon last weekend.  I do all my training in the morning so it's getting tough to knock out the 8 mile mid-week runs before work.  This is by far the most I've ever run in training as most my prior half marathon training weeks ranged from 18-24 mpw.  I've been battling some foot and knee pain and hoping to just get to the start line on race day without any injuries derailing the attempt.

On a positive note, I did PR my half marathon last weekend even without any sort of taper/rest leading into the race.  

My stretch goal is four hours.

 

I followed a similar path. Higdon's Novice 1 for me. I was training all summer before work, but as the bigger weeks approached I started to have more trouble squeezing it all in. Then my PF ended my 1st attempt sadly. I think the plan had me in good enough shape to finish though.

At what point did PF derail your attempt?  I had on the onset of it about 3-4 weeks ago.  It was mostly painful first thing in the morning and at the beginning of runs but then warmed up/loosened up and was ok to complete the run.  I went to a chiro for adjustments, ultrasound, cold laser, etc.  I also wear a night splint when sleeping.  My PF is mostly gone but now the pain has moved to top of foot on outside lateral edge.  Also some pain sneaking around outside of ankle.  I'm still getting treatment without ramping back my mileage at this point.  I don't want a major injury that will take months to recover from but I also am not ready to throw in the towel on the marathon attempt just yet.  I need a ton of swim/bike work this winter so I will be significantly ramping back my run miles if/when I get to the marathon.

I have had these same symptoms after my PF (which I had had for 8 months) was getting better.  Ortho doc said I had the "trifecta" of foot problems.  The PF caused imbalance/stress elsewhere in the foot and caused shin splints (inside and top of ankle area) and tendonitis (side of top of foot) - didn't stop me from completing a 13.1 on Saturday.  Keep stretching, icing, sock, etc....

2012-10-16 12:51 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

I ran my first marathon this weekend (Wine Country Marathon) and I completely agree this was a very humbling experience. I didn't decide to run the race until very late (registered 9/24, race 10/14). A bit crazy but I wanted to feel what it was like to complete a marathon. Just prior to the race I was training intensely for Leadman 250k in Bend, which is more swim (3.1 mi) and bike (139 mi) focused, with "only" a 14 mi run - this was on 9/22. I wanted to up my running over the 3 weeks before the race, BUT I ended up being sick and only ran one 15 mi run after. During my Leadman training I only did 59 mi (July includes a two Oly's), 36 (Aug - includes a 10k race), and 54 (Sept - includes Leadman).  Needless to say, I was very undertrained for the marathon! Ran the marathon in a 4:07. I definitely need to up my mileage - next year's goal is to do 3:30 or less (would like to get 3:15).

Background info - last year I was hit by a car in July and took me out for almost 6 mos (was training for a full). I vouched to get back on my feet this year and more - completed 2 HIM, 2 Oly, 1 Ultra, 2 10k runs, 1 marathon, and scheduled to two HM (Twin Cities Fresno in two weeks, and Big Sur Half in November). Figure go big or go home! 



Edited by drgary 2012-10-16 12:55 PM
2012-10-16 12:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

I think that is what is so appealing about the marathon. You just absolutely can't fake it.

Very humbling, indeed. 



2012-10-16 1:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
robingray_260 - 2012-10-16 12:41 PM
jkintn - 2012-10-16 10:07 AM
JoshR - 2012-10-16 9:16 AM
jkintn - 2012-10-16 7:26 AM

Maybe I should avoid reading/following this thread...I am training for my first marathon December 1.  I'm following the Hal Higdon Novice 2 plan.  So far, so good with staying on plan and completing the runs.  I'm currently in week 12 but swapped the long runs from weeks 11 and 12 to do a half marathon last weekend.  I do all my training in the morning so it's getting tough to knock out the 8 mile mid-week runs before work.  This is by far the most I've ever run in training as most my prior half marathon training weeks ranged from 18-24 mpw.  I've been battling some foot and knee pain and hoping to just get to the start line on race day without any injuries derailing the attempt.

On a positive note, I did PR my half marathon last weekend even without any sort of taper/rest leading into the race.  

My stretch goal is four hours.

 

I followed a similar path. Higdon's Novice 1 for me. I was training all summer before work, but as the bigger weeks approached I started to have more trouble squeezing it all in. Then my PF ended my 1st attempt sadly. I think the plan had me in good enough shape to finish though.

At what point did PF derail your attempt?  I had on the onset of it about 3-4 weeks ago.  It was mostly painful first thing in the morning and at the beginning of runs but then warmed up/loosened up and was ok to complete the run.  I went to a chiro for adjustments, ultrasound, cold laser, etc.  I also wear a night splint when sleeping.  My PF is mostly gone but now the pain has moved to top of foot on outside lateral edge.  Also some pain sneaking around outside of ankle.  I'm still getting treatment without ramping back my mileage at this point.  I don't want a major injury that will take months to recover from but I also am not ready to throw in the towel on the marathon attempt just yet.  I need a ton of swim/bike work this winter so I will be significantly ramping back my run miles if/when I get to the marathon.

I have had these same symptoms after my PF (which I had had for 8 months) was getting better.  Ortho doc said I had the "trifecta" of foot problems.  The PF caused imbalance/stress elsewhere in the foot and caused shin splints (inside and top of ankle area) and tendonitis (side of top of foot) - didn't stop me from completing a 13.1 on Saturday.  Keep stretching, icing, sock, etc....

Yes - I kind of figured it was all related and compensating for the PF is stressing other areas.  I actually had some right knee pain for a while from compensating for my left foot PF.  So far I've run through it - even PR'd the half marathon distance last weekend.  Just hoping I can get through marathon and then rest it for a while.

2012-10-16 1:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

Ive only done one of each. One marathon and one Ironman. So I completed the distance twice. The first was in Feb and was basically a ramp up for the IM. I wanted to do the distance so it was not a mental block as running is my weakest discipline.

I am not sure if humbling was the word for me. I hit the all around 22-23 with 40mpw training. I didnt have the time so hit lots of hills and lots of intervals to try and fake some of the miles Laughing. It kinda worked and goal of about 4hrs i got 4:06. I was not disapointed nor relived nor exstatic about my accomplishment. It was weird and surreal. Just more than anything was happy it was over although I did enjoy the encouragement from friedns and family who came to see me race. I definitly could have used more mile in training although the hills and intervals helped some

The IM run is different IMO. For me it is about survival. I went in knowing my training was about the same as above and knowing I wold have some fatigue. Based on the above I gave myself between 4:30-5hr run time and I came in at 4:44 so I hit my goal in the middle but it was a death march. I couldnt run after mile 9 cause of bad ITBS that i developed shortly before. Only enjoyment came on the last 6 miles knowing it was almost over.

It most certainly is an experience but not for everyone. I dont think you need to do one to do the other but it can help will probably help more so than in swimming or cycling...at least for me who likes running the least

2012-10-16 3:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
The best way to never want to run another marathon is to undertrain for it.  I like the longer stuff, so ya marathon is a good distance as is HIM or IM.  Got to respect that distance and have solid weekly miles in addition to the long runs.  After you have a couple under your belt then the fun starts where you try to get much faster at them.  My 2nd mary was 30 minutes faster than my first.  More miles more 800 repeats.  And yes marathons are humbling, they take training, nutrition, hydration, execution and then it all comes down to heart. 
2012-10-16 4:08 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

Good days and bad days I suppose.

I did my first marathon with very little training (all things considered) and achieved my goal of going under 4 hours (3:58, those two minutes were everything to me!), but I failed horribly in my second marathon months later and had to quit after 34km. I felt so, so bad about giving up. Never again!

2012-10-16 9:23 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

I may be sorry that I read this thread. 

I completed my first HIM on 9-30, took two weeks off and am on day 6 of a Hanson marathon training plan getting ready for my first marathon.  Hanson plans are 6 days of running based on the idea of cumulative fatigue.  The longest long run is 16 miles, but long runs are never done after a rest day.  The philosophy is the 16 miler simulates the last 16 miles of the marathon rather than the first 16.

I used to suffer from PF before I got seriously back into running.  I swear by the Strassburg Sock.



2012-10-16 9:24 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
Nate's spot on.  Early part of marathon should feel very easy, 'cause things get harder exponentially towards the end.  My last one (April) I had 4hr goal & had trained well- inc 4 20mi long runs.  I was on pace (even 1min good) @ 20mi & feeling good.  Spirits soared as I thought I had good energy for last 10k.  Then cramp monster bit my calves ~21.3mi & I limped in @ 4:13.  The 26.2 sure has a way of keeping ya humble
2012-10-17 8:33 AM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
I talked to a guy last night that ran the same marathon as me.  He said he was feeling good and keeping up with the 3:45 pace group at mile 20 so he decided he would pick it up a little.  At the next water station a lady grabbed a cup of water and flat stopped right in front of the table, it caused him to have to stop and jump sideways at the same time.  That did something to his IT band and he said he could feel the pain all the way up from his knee to his head.  Had to lay down in the grass and do stretches and then limped in at 4:34.  So many miles gives you many chances for things to go wrong and sometimes they are out of your control.
2012-10-19 6:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
20-mile runs are humbling too. Ran my first 20-miler today (training for first full in Dec). Granted I wasn't supposed to run it until tomorrow and my legs are tired but damn did that hurt. Held 9:20 pace through about 16 miles and then wheels fell off. Managed to finish at 9:30 pace but it hurt.
2012-10-19 7:34 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling

jkintn - 2012-10-19 7:54 PM 20-mile runs are humbling too. Ran my first 20-miler today (training for first full in Dec). Granted I wasn't supposed to run it until tomorrow and my legs are tired but damn did that hurt. Held 9:20 pace through about 16 miles and then wheels fell off. Managed to finish at 9:30 pace but it hurt.

You should be treating those 20 milers as long slow runs.  If you hurt that much, seriously think about brining down your pace. Trashing your body doesn't build endurance, it just prolongs the time you need to recover.

2012-10-19 8:12 PM
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Subject: RE: Marathon's are humbling
JoePetto - 2012-10-19 7:34 PM

jkintn - 2012-10-19 7:54 PM 20-mile runs are humbling too. Ran my first 20-miler today (training for first full in Dec). Granted I wasn't supposed to run it until tomorrow and my legs are tired but damn did that hurt. Held 9:20 pace through about 16 miles and then wheels fell off. Managed to finish at 9:30 pace but it hurt.

You should be treating those 20 milers as long slow runs.  If you hurt that much, seriously think about brining down your pace. Trashing your body doesn't build endurance, it just prolongs the time you need to recover.

Yes I know. I was a little aggressive on my pace today especially given my last 6 days of running. My long slow runs are typically 9:35-9:40 pace with HR about 5 beats lower than today. I'm playing with my pace as I don't know what to run at for my first full. Ran a half marathon at 7:52 last weekend with no taper and still had gas in the tank at the end.


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