Immigration Reform will die in Congress??? Thoughts??? (Page 2)

I get tired of hearing this... every single job ever held by an illegal alien, used to be held by a citizen. What, we never had farmers, construction workers, service industries, and laborers before illegal immigrations? The entire construction industry has been taken over. Those were all good honest livings for Americans, before other came over and accepted half because it was 10 times more than they were making at home.

Not a pro or con of anything, I just get tired of the statement. It's BS.

I believe rule #17 of COJ states that it is mandatory to not have any knowledge on a topic when replying. 
(I will now exercise this rule)

I'm kind of with powerman in that the "jobs nobody wants" always rubs me wrong.  However, I think it's probably more accurately stated as jobs nobody wants "at that pay level".  We'd get a lot of US field workers if they were paying $30/hr.

This phenomenon isn't just a matter of illegals coming to the US, it has to do with a lot of complex things.  For example, depending on where you look the actual unemployment rate in the US is anywhere from 10% to 15%, which puts that number of people between 31M to 44M people who do not have jobs in the US.  That's obviously a lot more people than there are illegals.  Now, why are there so many unemployed people that "don't want to do any of those jobs"?  IMHO it's because they don't need to have a job.  If they're getting a free ride from the government (or some other entity, like Mom/Dad, cousins, etc...) there is little incentive for them to take one of the $8/hr. jobs when they can make more money sitting on their fat butt living off of somebody else. 

I grew up in a family who did just this.  For many years when my parents were still married they would sit at home all day and do nothing but watch TV and eat.  We were on welfare, food stamps, and pretty much any other government program you could imagine.  My Dad trumped up a "disability" so he could get his Social Security early and there you have it.  Both of my parents were perfectly capable of working, but they chose not to because they could make more doing nothing and scamming the system.
My Dad had 3 brothers and 3 sisters and guess what?  They all did the exact same thing.  They knew which doctor to go to in order to get their disability and they all knew exactly how to game the system.

So, I'm really off on a totally different subject, but the whole immigration thing is very complex and has many facets to it that need to be looked at.  Rather than simply saying they're doing the "jobs nobody wants", I ask the question "why doesn't anybody want the jobs?"  My answer is simply because people make more money doing nothing.

I believe rule #17 of COJ states that it is mandatory to not have any knowledge on a topic when replying. 
(I will now exercise this rule)

I'm kind of with powerman in that the "jobs nobody wants" always rubs me wrong.  However, I think it's probably more accurately stated as jobs nobody wants "at that pay level".  We'd get a lot of US field workers if they were paying $30/hr.

This phenomenon isn't just a matter of illegals coming to the US, it has to do with a lot of complex things.  For example, depending on where you look the actual unemployment rate in the US is anywhere from 10% to 15%, which puts that number of people between 31M to 44M people who do not have jobs in the US.  That's obviously a lot more people than there are illegals.  Now, why are there so many unemployed people that "don't want to do any of those jobs"?  IMHO it's because they don't need to have a job.  If they're getting a free ride from the government (or some other entity, like Mom/Dad, cousins, etc...) there is little incentive for them to take one of the $8/hr. jobs when they can make more money sitting on their fat butt living off of somebody else. 

I grew up in a family who did just this.  For many years when my parents were still married they would sit at home all day and do nothing but watch TV and eat.  We were on welfare, food stamps, and pretty much any other government program you could imagine.  My Dad trumped up a "disability" so he could get his Social Security early and there you have it.  Both of my parents were perfectly capable of working, but they chose not to because they could make more doing nothing and scamming the system.
My Dad had 3 brothers and 3 sisters and guess what?  They all did the exact same thing.  They knew which doctor to go to in order to get their disability and they all knew exactly how to game the system.

So, I'm really off on a totally different subject, but the whole immigration thing is very complex and has many facets to it that need to be looked at.  Rather than simply saying they're doing the "jobs nobody wants", I ask the question "why doesn't anybody want the jobs?"  My answer is simply because people make more money doing nothing.

One other thing for the "Jobs no one else will do" crowd.  Remember growing up and having a job as a teenager.  Usually, lame crappy jobs that taught work ethics, and left you with great memories of your first jobs?  I worked the following:  Golf Caddy, Driving Range Attendent, Bus Boy, Waiter, Banquet Set-up, Construction Laborer, Grocery Store Cart Guy, Hotel Front desk clerk, etc.  Low paying jobs where I met some fun people and had some good times.  Ask kids today, and they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get a summer job because the only thing available is retail, and there are tons of kids applying for those.  

Fact is if the jobs are there, someone will do them, or the employer will have to pay a little bit more to fill them.

One other thing for the "Jobs no one else will do" crowd.  Remember growing up and having a job as a teenager.  Usually, lame crappy jobs that taught work ethics, and left you with great memories of your first jobs?  I worked the following:  Golf Caddy, Driving Range Attendent, Bus Boy, Waiter, Banquet Set-up, Construction Laborer, Grocery Store Cart Guy, Hotel Front desk clerk, etc.  Low paying jobs where I met some fun people and had some good times.  Ask kids today, and they'll tell you it's almost impossible to get a summer job because the only thing available is retail, and there are tons of kids applying for those.  

Fact is if the jobs are there, someone will do them, or the employer will have to pay a little bit more to fill them.

Ya... first real job I had was grocery bagger at the store they opened out in the sticks. I lied about my age and said I was 16. Made minimum wage at $3.10. Then I waxed planes for a charter airline... that was hard... got it by putting out flyers of me and my friend. Mostly my friend and I had our own Summer business cutting grass, landscaping, and shovelling what ever was dumped in the drive way. Can't tell you how many wheelbarrows I have pushed.

In the meantime I worked with my Dad painting in the Winter, and plastering pools in the Summer. I worked with him since I was 10. I stopped all that when I went in the Navy... and had plenty of crappy jobs, sometimes 2 or 3, until I got to where I am now. I always earned my own money. I can't even tell you of a teenager I know today that does that.

I'll agree with you on that. Why do you think he couldn't make it into the Cal. uni system?

So I will follow suit, and explain. My father plastered pools in Vegas. They all knew each other. He started his own business.... then, everyone startedusing illegals and undrcut him on everything. No way to compete, except to hire illegals. That isn't the fault of the illegals, they were just filling a spot... it was the Americans hiring him... but now, you pretty much can't find a english speaking person on a construction site.

Now I live in Colorado, I have a couple of friends that are roofers... there are no roofers pretty much that are not illegal. American's get business, and illegals do the labor... but they almost get paid going rate. They make good money... difference is, they have no rights and no legal standing. And their pay is under the table, so they keep it all. American's can't compete, because they "take home" less money, and they have legal protection and may have to have benefits. There was one crew that worked for my friend... they came up every Summer... worked Sun up to Sun down. Every penny was sent home. One guy finally worked long enough he was going to go home and retire and live like a King. Had nothing to do with building a life here.

Just a small example of how it works sometimes. There are many many American's that would happily do the work... but American's have a cheap source of labor that have no legal standing to complain about anything. Employers can pay them a good wage because it is under the table, and Employers get rich doing it because they do not have to fear legal actions or benefits and "time off". They just take the next guy in line. American workers get screwed... they have to take the truely "menial" jobs at minimum wage if they do not have an education.... because it is the only thing that can get.

It's hosed all the way around. I've said it once, I'll say it again... we have illegal immigration, because we WANT illegal immigration. But we are cutting our own throats.

Or that they were not handed one with their diploma? We were, and still sort of are, in a severe economic down turn. Things change. College is a business decision. What is the ROI? Some did not do their homework in their chosen fields. But that is not a blanket statement applied to all... get a degree, don't get a degree... but a bright, well rounded, motivated hard working person will always come out on top compared to those around them.

Even in the tech industry... that shed good high paying jobs... but not EVERYBODY stayed unemployed for 99 weeks. Many had brief stints without work, many did not. There are usually reasons for that. And I am not taking a hand out from anyone... yes I understand reality of bills and making more on unemployment that a crappy job... but then I would have got two. The people that stayed employed, are the ones that are ahead today. Even if it was a crappy interim job.

Fact is.. Many teens nowadays are often unreliable with poor work ethic. They will just .. not show up. I know someone that has to schedule 3x the number of employees he'll need because only 1/3 of them will show.. the others don't even bother to call in. 

Agreed... but if I am reading you right.... I do not find justifications to why hard work does not pay (not saying you do that personally). That's the difference. If that is the mentality of the young today, then the only thing ahead of us is continued decline.