Other Resources The Political Joe » Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions Rss Feed  
Moderators: k9car363, alicefoeller Reply
Show Per page
 
 
of 3
 
 
2014-04-25 1:26 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Elite
6387
50001000100100100252525
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn I had a tough time with this one, because it is unquestionably true that there are barriers placed in front of minorities in many aspects of life that simply do not exist for the majority. It's unquestionable fact. Those barriers may not exist everywhere, or all the time, or for every minority group in every place, but they still exist. And we've gotten way too comfortable as a society with shrugging our collective shoulders and saying, "Meh. Everyone gets discriminated against in some way," or pointing at the race of the POTUS as proof that racism is dead. Having said that, I can't really justify affirmative action for college admissions. I still think that financial aid should be need-based, which will certainly benefit minority students disproportionately, but college admissions should be based on academic merit. Affirmative action always seemed arbitrary to me.

I can't believe I'm typing this, but "I agree completely"  ;-)

I've always felt that AA based simply on ethnicity was unfair because a poor white kid growing up in a rough hood is the same as a poor black kid in my mind.  They both have most of the same socioeconomic challenges to overcome in life.

No they're not, and no they don't. 

Thanks Tony.

I'm glad you went back to the original post.  I reqouted it here from the original to get rid of that massive quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blacks do not have socioeconomic parity with whites.

Here's a paper published in 2010 that addresses socioeconomic factors and black/white disparity.  Even if you don't have time to read the paper, take a look at the figures: http://nulwb.stage.iamempowered.com/sites/nulwb.iamempowered.com/fi... is a link from the American Psychological Association about race and its implications in socioeconomic factors:

http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-erm.aspx

I know people are sometimes resistant to clicking links, so a few of the highlights:

  • Discrimination and marginalization are sometimes barriers for ethnic and racial minorities seeking to escape poverty (Corcoran & Nichols-Casebolt, 2004).
  • African American children are three times more likely to live in poverty than Caucasian children. American Indian/Alaska Native, Hispanic, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian families are more likely than Caucasian and Asian families to live in poverty (Costello, Keeler, & Angold, 2001; National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • Although the income of Asian American families is often markedly above other minorities, these families also often have four to five family members working (Le, 2008).

  • Minorities are more likely to receive high-cost mortgages: African Americans (53 percent) and Latinos (43 percent), in comparison to Caucasians (18 percent) (Logan,2008).

  • Unemployment rates for African Americans are typically double those of Caucasian Americans. African American men working full time earn 72 percent of the average earnings of comparable Caucasian men and 85 percent of the earnings of Caucasian women (Rodgers, 2008).

Education
  • Despite dramatic changes, large gaps remain when minority education attainment is compared to that of Caucasian Americans (American Council on Education, 2006).
  • African Americans and Latinos are more likely to attend high-poverty schools than Asian Americans and Caucasians (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • In 2005, the high school dropout rate of Latinos was highest, followed by those of African Americans and American Indians/Alaska Natives (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • In addition to socioeconomic realities that may deprive students of valuable resources, high-achieving African American students may be exposed to less rigorous curriculums, attend schools with fewer resources, and have teachers who expect less of them academically than they expect of similarly situated Caucasian students (Azzam, 2008).

Physical Health
  • Systemic prejudices against ethnic minorities in the United States create additional barriers in health care that exist regardless of class.
  • In one study, one-fourth of American women of South Asian descent from affluent backgrounds did not have a Pap smear in over 3 years. Those from low socioeconomic status are even more at risk for not having this early detection test yearly (Chaudhry, Fink, Gelberg, & Brook, 2003).

  • Socioeconomic status and race/ethnicity have been associated with avoidable procedures, avoidable hospitalizations, and untreated disease (Fiscella, Franks, Gold, & Clancy, 2008).

  • Low birth weight, which is related to a number of negative child health outcomes, has been associated with lower SES and ethnic/minority status (Fiscella et al., 2008).

Psychological Health
  • Socioeconomic deprivation and racial discrimination have been implicated higher psychological distress.
  • Minority children in high-poverty areas are more likely to be exposed to alcohol and tobacco advertisements (Wallace, 1999) and drug distribution (Wallace, 1999); they are also more likely to use drugs and exhibit antisocial behaviors (Dubow, Edwards, & Ippolito, 1997).

  • The odds of being diagnosed with schizophrenia were significantly higher for African Americans than Caucasians in lower poverty areas (Chow et al., 2003).

  • African Americans are at higher risk for involuntary psychiatric commitment than any other racial group. African Americans and Latinos in low-poverty areas were more likely to be referred for commitment by a law enforcement official than any other racial group (Chow et al., 2003).

 

 

Effect does not automatically equal cause



Edited by powerman 2014-04-25 1:26 PM


2014-04-25 1:48 PM
in reply to: switch

New user
900
500100100100100
,
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn I had a tough time with this one, because it is unquestionably true that there are barriers placed in front of minorities in many aspects of life that simply do not exist for the majority. It's unquestionable fact. Those barriers may not exist everywhere, or all the time, or for every minority group in every place, but they still exist. And we've gotten way too comfortable as a society with shrugging our collective shoulders and saying, "Meh. Everyone gets discriminated against in some way," or pointing at the race of the POTUS as proof that racism is dead. Having said that, I can't really justify affirmative action for college admissions. I still think that financial aid should be need-based, which will certainly benefit minority students disproportionately, but college admissions should be based on academic merit. Affirmative action always seemed arbitrary to me.

I can't believe I'm typing this, but "I agree completely"  ;-)

I've always felt that AA based simply on ethnicity was unfair because a poor white kid growing up in a rough hood is the same as a poor black kid in my mind.  They both have most of the same socioeconomic challenges to overcome in life.

No they're not, and no they don't. 

Thanks Tony.

I'm glad you went back to the original post.  I reqouted it here from the original to get rid of that massive quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blacks do not have socioeconomic parity with whites.

Here's a paper published in 2010 that addresses socioeconomic factors and black/white disparity.  Even if you don't have time to read the paper, take a look at the figures: http://nulwb.stage.iamempowered.com/sites/nulwb.iamempowered.com/fi... is a link from the American Psychological Association about race and its implications in socioeconomic factors:

http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-erm.aspx

I know people are sometimes resistant to clicking links, so a few of the highlights:

  • Discrimination and marginalization are sometimes barriers for ethnic and racial minorities seeking to escape poverty (Corcoran & Nichols-Casebolt, 2004).
  • African American children are three times more likely to live in poverty than Caucasian children. American Indian/Alaska Native, Hispanic, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian families are more likely than Caucasian and Asian families to live in poverty (Costello, Keeler, & Angold, 2001; National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • Although the income of Asian American families is often markedly above other minorities, these families also often have four to five family members working (Le, 2008).

  • Minorities are more likely to receive high-cost mortgages: African Americans (53 percent) and Latinos (43 percent), in comparison to Caucasians (18 percent) (Logan,2008).

  • Unemployment rates for African Americans are typically double those of Caucasian Americans. African American men working full time earn 72 percent of the average earnings of comparable Caucasian men and 85 percent of the earnings of Caucasian women (Rodgers, 2008).

Education
  • Despite dramatic changes, large gaps remain when minority education attainment is compared to that of Caucasian Americans (American Council on Education, 2006).
  • African Americans and Latinos are more likely to attend high-poverty schools than Asian Americans and Caucasians (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • In 2005, the high school dropout rate of Latinos was highest, followed by those of African Americans and American Indians/Alaska Natives (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • In addition to socioeconomic realities that may deprive students of valuable resources, high-achieving African American students may be exposed to less rigorous curriculums, attend schools with fewer resources, and have teachers who expect less of them academically than they expect of similarly situated Caucasian students (Azzam, 2008).

Physical Health
  • Systemic prejudices against ethnic minorities in the United States create additional barriers in health care that exist regardless of class.
  • In one study, one-fourth of American women of South Asian descent from affluent backgrounds did not have a Pap smear in over 3 years. Those from low socioeconomic status are even more at risk for not having this early detection test yearly (Chaudhry, Fink, Gelberg, & Brook, 2003).

  • Socioeconomic status and race/ethnicity have been associated with avoidable procedures, avoidable hospitalizations, and untreated disease (Fiscella, Franks, Gold, & Clancy, 2008).

  • Low birth weight, which is related to a number of negative child health outcomes, has been associated with lower SES and ethnic/minority status (Fiscella et al., 2008).

Psychological Health
  • Socioeconomic deprivation and racial discrimination have been implicated higher psychological distress.
  • Minority children in high-poverty areas are more likely to be exposed to alcohol and tobacco advertisements (Wallace, 1999) and drug distribution (Wallace, 1999); they are also more likely to use drugs and exhibit antisocial behaviors (Dubow, Edwards, & Ippolito, 1997).

  • The odds of being diagnosed with schizophrenia were significantly higher for African Americans than Caucasians in lower poverty areas (Chow et al., 2003).

  • African Americans are at higher risk for involuntary psychiatric commitment than any other racial group. African Americans and Latinos in low-poverty areas were more likely to be referred for commitment by a law enforcement official than any other racial group (Chow et al., 2003).

 

 




The answer to all of the problems listed is education and that is the main problem. The parish I live in is majority black, poor (mean family income is 27,500) and rural. These are my neighbors and friends. What has happened over a period of time is that a culture has developed that does not value education. I know that is not everyone, but for a vast majority, education is not a priority. For example, my office manager, a 25 yr. old black girl, has been ostracized by her family and community because she has goals for education and doing better in life. She is considered a "sell out to her people" because of this and that her fiancée is white.

It is so sad to see people turn their back on education, the only thing that will truly empower them, for what? A gov. check, housing, food stamps? The very programs designed to help people out of poverty has for the most part, destroyed their families, and culture and made them a dependent class. As I said earlier in this thread, if the gov. truly wants to help minorities instead of using them for a voting block, allow school choice. Let the people who value education send their children to schools where they will learn. Education is the only thing that will break the cycle of poverty
2014-04-25 2:05 PM
in reply to: switch

User image

Pro
9377
500020002000100100100252525
Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn I had a tough time with this one, because it is unquestionably true that there are barriers placed in front of minorities in many aspects of life that simply do not exist for the majority. It's unquestionable fact. Those barriers may not exist everywhere, or all the time, or for every minority group in every place, but they still exist. And we've gotten way too comfortable as a society with shrugging our collective shoulders and saying, "Meh. Everyone gets discriminated against in some way," or pointing at the race of the POTUS as proof that racism is dead. Having said that, I can't really justify affirmative action for college admissions. I still think that financial aid should be need-based, which will certainly benefit minority students disproportionately, but college admissions should be based on academic merit. Affirmative action always seemed arbitrary to me.

I can't believe I'm typing this, but "I agree completely"  ;-)

I've always felt that AA based simply on ethnicity was unfair because a poor white kid growing up in a rough hood is the same as a poor black kid in my mind.  They both have most of the same socioeconomic challenges to overcome in life.

No they're not, and no they don't. 

Thanks Tony.

I'm glad you went back to the original post.  I reqouted it here from the original to get rid of that massive quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blacks do not have socioeconomic parity with whites.

Here's a paper published in 2010 that addresses socioeconomic factors and black/white disparity.  Even if you don't have time to read the paper, take a look at the figures: http://nulwb.stage.iamempowered.com/sites/nulwb.iamempowered.com/fi... is a link from the American Psychological Association about race and its implications in socioeconomic factors:

http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-erm.aspx

I know people are sometimes resistant to clicking links, so a few of the highlights:

  • Discrimination and marginalization are sometimes barriers for ethnic and racial minorities seeking to escape poverty (Corcoran & Nichols-Casebolt, 2004).
  • African American children are three times more likely to live in poverty than Caucasian children. American Indian/Alaska Native, Hispanic, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian families are more likely than Caucasian and Asian families to live in poverty (Costello, Keeler, & Angold, 2001; National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • Although the income of Asian American families is often markedly above other minorities, these families also often have four to five family members working (Le, 2008).

  • Minorities are more likely to receive high-cost mortgages: African Americans (53 percent) and Latinos (43 percent), in comparison to Caucasians (18 percent) (Logan,2008).

  • Unemployment rates for African Americans are typically double those of Caucasian Americans. African American men working full time earn 72 percent of the average earnings of comparable Caucasian men and 85 percent of the earnings of Caucasian women (Rodgers, 2008).

Education
  • Despite dramatic changes, large gaps remain when minority education attainment is compared to that of Caucasian Americans (American Council on Education, 2006).
  • African Americans and Latinos are more likely to attend high-poverty schools than Asian Americans and Caucasians (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • In 2005, the high school dropout rate of Latinos was highest, followed by those of African Americans and American Indians/Alaska Natives (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • In addition to socioeconomic realities that may deprive students of valuable resources, high-achieving African American students may be exposed to less rigorous curriculums, attend schools with fewer resources, and have teachers who expect less of them academically than they expect of similarly situated Caucasian students (Azzam, 2008).

Physical Health
  • Systemic prejudices against ethnic minorities in the United States create additional barriers in health care that exist regardless of class.
  • In one study, one-fourth of American women of South Asian descent from affluent backgrounds did not have a Pap smear in over 3 years. Those from low socioeconomic status are even more at risk for not having this early detection test yearly (Chaudhry, Fink, Gelberg, & Brook, 2003).

  • Socioeconomic status and race/ethnicity have been associated with avoidable procedures, avoidable hospitalizations, and untreated disease (Fiscella, Franks, Gold, & Clancy, 2008).

  • Low birth weight, which is related to a number of negative child health outcomes, has been associated with lower SES and ethnic/minority status (Fiscella et al., 2008).

Psychological Health
  • Socioeconomic deprivation and racial discrimination have been implicated higher psychological distress.
  • Minority children in high-poverty areas are more likely to be exposed to alcohol and tobacco advertisements (Wallace, 1999) and drug distribution (Wallace, 1999); they are also more likely to use drugs and exhibit antisocial behaviors (Dubow, Edwards, & Ippolito, 1997).

  • The odds of being diagnosed with schizophrenia were significantly higher for African Americans than Caucasians in lower poverty areas (Chow et al., 2003).

  • African Americans are at higher risk for involuntary psychiatric commitment than any other racial group. African Americans and Latinos in low-poverty areas were more likely to be referred for commitment by a law enforcement official than any other racial group (Chow et al., 2003).

 

I don't dispute any of the things in that report, but the vast majority of these things are consistent with all poor people and African Americans have a higher rate of poverty than whites so logically they'll be disproportionately represented in most categories.  

In the US 13% of Whites have household incomes below the poverty line compared to 35% for Black.  There are many complex things that go into why those numbers are what they are, but just for arguments sake lets say they're "just poor".  Poor people tend to live in poor neighborhoods and poor neighborhoods tend to have poor schools and higher criminal influences (gangs, drugs, etc.).  So with 13% of Whites being poor and 33% of Blacks being poor it makes perfect sense that blacks are three times more likely to have issues across the board (drugs, alcohol, struggle a job, be arrested, be in a gang

I'm a business owner and if a black kid comes in speaking in broken english and unable to make eye contact with me, there's a pretty good chance that I'm not going to hire him.  Same thing if he's a white kid.  I'm not using "race" to make my determination on who to hire, I'm making a decision based on how the individuals present themselves to me?

One of the charities my family supports has an employment education center for the inner city.  Their mantra is that there's not a jobs problem, there's an employability problem.  A fortune 500 company could drop right into the middle of North Omaha (poor part of town) and offer 1000 new jobs and there would barely be anyone qualified to fill the positions due to the socioeconomic environment people have grown up in there.  The employment center is primarily filled with black people, but the whites who are there have the exact same challenges with poor education, grammar, manners and such.

2014-04-25 2:15 PM
in reply to: NXS

User image

Pro
9377
500020002000100100100252525
Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

Originally posted by NXS
Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn I had a tough time with this one, because it is unquestionably true that there are barriers placed in front of minorities in many aspects of life that simply do not exist for the majority. It's unquestionable fact. Those barriers may not exist everywhere, or all the time, or for every minority group in every place, but they still exist. And we've gotten way too comfortable as a society with shrugging our collective shoulders and saying, "Meh. Everyone gets discriminated against in some way," or pointing at the race of the POTUS as proof that racism is dead. Having said that, I can't really justify affirmative action for college admissions. I still think that financial aid should be need-based, which will certainly benefit minority students disproportionately, but college admissions should be based on academic merit. Affirmative action always seemed arbitrary to me.

I can't believe I'm typing this, but "I agree completely"  ;-)

I've always felt that AA based simply on ethnicity was unfair because a poor white kid growing up in a rough hood is the same as a poor black kid in my mind.  They both have most of the same socioeconomic challenges to overcome in life.

No they're not, and no they don't. 

Thanks Tony.

I'm glad you went back to the original post.  I reqouted it here from the original to get rid of that massive quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blacks do not have socioeconomic parity with whites.

Here's a paper published in 2010 that addresses socioeconomic factors and black/white disparity.  Even if you don't have time to read the paper, take a look at the figures: http://nulwb.stage.iamempowered.com/sites/nulwb.iamempowered.com/fi... is a link from the American Psychological Association about race and its implications in socioeconomic factors:

http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-erm.aspx

I know people are sometimes resistant to clicking links, so a few of the highlights:

  • Discrimination and marginalization are sometimes barriers for ethnic and racial minorities seeking to escape poverty (Corcoran & Nichols-Casebolt, 2004).
  • African American children are three times more likely to live in poverty than Caucasian children. American Indian/Alaska Native, Hispanic, Pacific Islander, and Native Hawaiian families are more likely than Caucasian and Asian families to live in poverty (Costello, Keeler, & Angold, 2001; National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • Although the income of Asian American families is often markedly above other minorities, these families also often have four to five family members working (Le, 2008).

  • Minorities are more likely to receive high-cost mortgages: African Americans (53 percent) and Latinos (43 percent), in comparison to Caucasians (18 percent) (Logan,2008).

  • Unemployment rates for African Americans are typically double those of Caucasian Americans. African American men working full time earn 72 percent of the average earnings of comparable Caucasian men and 85 percent of the earnings of Caucasian women (Rodgers, 2008).

Education
  • Despite dramatic changes, large gaps remain when minority education attainment is compared to that of Caucasian Americans (American Council on Education, 2006).
  • African Americans and Latinos are more likely to attend high-poverty schools than Asian Americans and Caucasians (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • In 2005, the high school dropout rate of Latinos was highest, followed by those of African Americans and American Indians/Alaska Natives (National Center for Education Statistics, 2007).

  • In addition to socioeconomic realities that may deprive students of valuable resources, high-achieving African American students may be exposed to less rigorous curriculums, attend schools with fewer resources, and have teachers who expect less of them academically than they expect of similarly situated Caucasian students (Azzam, 2008).

Physical Health
  • Systemic prejudices against ethnic minorities in the United States create additional barriers in health care that exist regardless of class.
  • In one study, one-fourth of American women of South Asian descent from affluent backgrounds did not have a Pap smear in over 3 years. Those from low socioeconomic status are even more at risk for not having this early detection test yearly (Chaudhry, Fink, Gelberg, & Brook, 2003).

  • Socioeconomic status and race/ethnicity have been associated with avoidable procedures, avoidable hospitalizations, and untreated disease (Fiscella, Franks, Gold, & Clancy, 2008).

  • Low birth weight, which is related to a number of negative child health outcomes, has been associated with lower SES and ethnic/minority status (Fiscella et al., 2008).

Psychological Health
  • Socioeconomic deprivation and racial discrimination have been implicated higher psychological distress.
  • Minority children in high-poverty areas are more likely to be exposed to alcohol and tobacco advertisements (Wallace, 1999) and drug distribution (Wallace, 1999); they are also more likely to use drugs and exhibit antisocial behaviors (Dubow, Edwards, & Ippolito, 1997).

  • The odds of being diagnosed with schizophrenia were significantly higher for African Americans than Caucasians in lower poverty areas (Chow et al., 2003).

  • African Americans are at higher risk for involuntary psychiatric commitment than any other racial group. African Americans and Latinos in low-poverty areas were more likely to be referred for commitment by a law enforcement official than any other racial group (Chow et al., 2003).

 

 

The answer to all of the problems listed is education and that is the main problem. The parish I live in is majority black, poor (mean family income is 27,500) and rural. These are my neighbors and friends. What has happened over a period of time is that a culture has developed that does not value education. I know that is not everyone, but for a vast majority, education is not a priority. For example, my office manager, a 25 yr. old black girl, has been ostracized by her family and community because she has goals for education and doing better in life. She is considered a "sell out to her people" because of this and that her fiancée is white. It is so sad to see people turn their back on education, the only thing that will truly empower them, for what? A gov. check, housing, food stamps? The very programs designed to help people out of poverty has for the most part, destroyed their families, and culture and made them a dependent class. As I said earlier in this thread, if the gov. truly wants to help minorities instead of using them for a voting block, allow school choice. Let the people who value education send their children to schools where they will learn. Education is the only thing that will break the cycle of poverty

I'm considered the "black sheep" of my family and a sell out as well to my extended family because I am not poor.  It got so uncomfortable at family reunions that we just stopped going.

I guess I've never put two and two together on that, but my family has a culture of tearing each other down to ensure that they all stay down.  Heck with other people, my own family keeps my family down, lol   "don't go join the military, that's a terrible job"  "don't get out of the military, you'll never get a better paying job"  "don't quit that job, you'll never find a better job"  "don't buy a house, you never know when you're going to lose your job" "don't go start a business" "don't go to college".  These are all things my Mom has said to me over the years.  She constantly tries to talk me out of anything I'm doing and is what I'd call a "negative nelly" type personality.  It got to the point where I told her to knock it off and just support me in whatever I decide to do and she's been good the past several years or so.

2014-04-25 4:10 PM
in reply to: tuwood

User image

Champion
7821
50002000500100100100
Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by mr2tony I agree that people in this day and age shouldn't be judged on what they look like and we should all just be `people.' Let me know when that starts in the U.S.

Whe you make a statement like you did, when you go on about how black peple are bullied, harrassed, etc.......are you not making a judgement about a black person's life based on their skin color?  How in the hell do you differentiate between behavior that you detest and your own judgemental words?

If you truly don't believe people should be judged on what they look like then why do you do it?  Why do you assume things about their life experiences based on their skin color?  Why do you feel like you can makje blanket statements about black people if not for your own judgement based on the color of their skin?

It took me a long time to get to the point I am with race and racism.  Contrary to what people like Switch think about personal experieces like working full time in a public housing project, and supervising a unit that is over 50% black officers, and having a black partner for 6 years who was shot and killed over an ounce of marijuana....it does make a huge difference.  I have been blessed to be able to have very frank conversations about race and racism with black men that I have a bond with due to our work situation.  They don't trust you.  They don't understand why you think you can speak for them....and they damn sure don't think you have a clue about how it feels to be them.  These are great men and women.....and they sure as hell don't see the world like you do.....and I promise they don't go through life feeling like their skin color makes them a target for bullying, harassment, discrimination, etc.

Who are you referring to with "they"? The people you work with?  The black people who work as COPS?  Right.  They're definitely the "norm" for blacks.  Do go on.

I know you can't possibly be referring to all black people, as I could give you hundreds (Thousands?) of references to blacks specifically addressing discrimination/bullying/harassment based on the color of their skin.  Maybe for fun we should just stick to recent cases with cops--Rodney King, Trayvon Martin, OJ SImspon, etc.  Of course, we all know these are just the high profile cases.  The number of wrongly convicted blacks in all levels of the judicial system speaks volumes. 

If you and Tuwood think his experience wouldn't have been harder as black kid, I just flat out disagree with that.  A black kid growing up in this country in the 70s and 80s, if I have Tony's age right, given Tony's exact same circumstances would have had it worse because of the color of his skin (I don't even know where Tony grew up, but we should throw that into the mix.)  That doesn't mean Tony's situation didn't suck.  It means that a black kid would have had race issues on top of everything else. I don't want that to be true, but I absolutely think it is. 

This is an AA thread.  By definition it includes conversations about race and racism--which is a subject of discussion and point of contention because it has been (and continues to be) an issue. 

 

I would never refer to all black people, that's what you did.  And yes, Switch, I will go on.  I am also referring to the city sanitation workers that I have come to know in the 29 years here, the city councilmen who's friends were shot and killed by another black man in a dispute with our city that centered on racism.  I am referring to the hundreds and probably thousands of people I got to know workling the same public housing beat for many years......as one of only two white cops there. 

You have no business speaking for any of them.  You have no business trying to convince other people what it feels like to be black, or what black people experience because of their skin color.  You are more judgemental than any racist could ever be.  You wrongly assume that all black people feel like you think they do......how dare you....really.  You are part of the problem. 

I'm not going to have any more discussion about it.  You can go on and have your AA discussion and pretend you are helping a problem you can't even identify except in the context of some history that largtely no longer applies except in the minds of people like you who perpetuate racism by separating the life experiences of people of different colors.  Grow up.

Oh yeah, that's right--I'm the racist. 

I'm not "pretending to help" a damn thing except calling you out on another case of your crazy BS. I stated early on in this thread that I don't believe in AA.  Never have. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge racism exists. Perpetuating it and acknowledging  it exists are two different things.

I haven't made a single statement about what all black people feel--the ONLY person who has done that in this thread is you.  Damn, your hypocrisy is astounding.

And if you think you really got to know hundreds of people by working as a cop in a housing project, you are more delusional than I could have imagined.

Switch, there's no question that racism still exists and I think LB would agree with that.  However, to say that a poor white kid growing up in poverty is completely different than a poor black kid growing up in poverty simply due to his skin color is incorrect and disrespectful to the black kid in my opinion.  Kids get picked on and bullied for all kinds of reasons (race, ethnicity, religion, appearance, cleanliness, sexual orientation, you name it).  Racism was horrible 50 years ago because it was essentially sanctioned by the state and society.  It was OK to demean and destroy minorities, but that is no longer the case. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is not accepted anywhere in our society and that is the true victory over racism in America.
Any one of us in this thread would do anything we could if we witnessed a blatant example of racism, and the vast majority of people in our society would do the same.

We all have experienced racism in our lives to one extent or another, some of it is more overt and some of it is not.  I was called a white a## cracker by a homeless guy in downtown Omaha within the last month when I didn't give him any money.  OK, so what?  I felt sorry for the guy and moved on.

I just saw this article a few minutes ago that's a good example of societies tolerance of racism.
Ala. Dem Offers $100K for Proof of White Families Adopting Black Kids; Families Show Up

Society does not allow racism against blacks.  If a white senator repeatedly made prejudicial and racial statements towards black people he would be humiliated and likely be forced to resign.  It is not tolerated.
However, we as a society do not have the same feelings towards racism against whites, so it is accepted by our society and continues to happen on larger and larger platforms.  In a way societies view on racism against other ethnicities is probably 20 or 30 years behind our views on racism against blacks.

Don't misread what I'm saying to complain that whites are being persecuted for being white because I'm not.  I'm simply saying that the level that a society accepts and allows racism is the extent that racism exists.




Again Tony, and with all due respect, you sort of do this a lot, you're confusing racism or bigotry with discrimination. They're not interchangeable because they're not the same thing. There's no question that racism/bigotry exist in large measure among blacks as well as whites, and there are racists/bigots of every ehnicity. But there's a big difference between a person not liking me or judging me because of the color of my skin and denying me something that I have the legal right to (whether it's a job or a loan or an apartment) because of it. There's no question that I probably encounter black people every day who are racists. The difference, and it's an important distinction, is that most black people (that I know, at least) can give you not one, but several, and in some cases many examples of times they were discriminated against because of their race-- denied a table in a restaurant, hassled by a cop, etc. Most white people, including me, would be hard pressed to give even one example of a time where someone's prejudice against their ethnicity cost them something of value like the examples I gave before. I've never been discriminated against because of my race. Ever (ok, unless you count getting picked last for pickup basketball...). The only times I've ever been legitimately discriminated against, it's been because I was Jewish (and usually came at the hands of other white guys).
2014-04-25 5:20 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

User image

Pro
9377
500020002000100100100252525
Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by mr2tony I agree that people in this day and age shouldn't be judged on what they look like and we should all just be `people.' Let me know when that starts in the U.S.

Whe you make a statement like you did, when you go on about how black peple are bullied, harrassed, etc.......are you not making a judgement about a black person's life based on their skin color?  How in the hell do you differentiate between behavior that you detest and your own judgemental words?

If you truly don't believe people should be judged on what they look like then why do you do it?  Why do you assume things about their life experiences based on their skin color?  Why do you feel like you can makje blanket statements about black people if not for your own judgement based on the color of their skin?

It took me a long time to get to the point I am with race and racism.  Contrary to what people like Switch think about personal experieces like working full time in a public housing project, and supervising a unit that is over 50% black officers, and having a black partner for 6 years who was shot and killed over an ounce of marijuana....it does make a huge difference.  I have been blessed to be able to have very frank conversations about race and racism with black men that I have a bond with due to our work situation.  They don't trust you.  They don't understand why you think you can speak for them....and they damn sure don't think you have a clue about how it feels to be them.  These are great men and women.....and they sure as hell don't see the world like you do.....and I promise they don't go through life feeling like their skin color makes them a target for bullying, harassment, discrimination, etc.

Who are you referring to with "they"? The people you work with?  The black people who work as COPS?  Right.  They're definitely the "norm" for blacks.  Do go on.

I know you can't possibly be referring to all black people, as I could give you hundreds (Thousands?) of references to blacks specifically addressing discrimination/bullying/harassment based on the color of their skin.  Maybe for fun we should just stick to recent cases with cops--Rodney King, Trayvon Martin, OJ SImspon, etc.  Of course, we all know these are just the high profile cases.  The number of wrongly convicted blacks in all levels of the judicial system speaks volumes. 

If you and Tuwood think his experience wouldn't have been harder as black kid, I just flat out disagree with that.  A black kid growing up in this country in the 70s and 80s, if I have Tony's age right, given Tony's exact same circumstances would have had it worse because of the color of his skin (I don't even know where Tony grew up, but we should throw that into the mix.)  That doesn't mean Tony's situation didn't suck.  It means that a black kid would have had race issues on top of everything else. I don't want that to be true, but I absolutely think it is. 

This is an AA thread.  By definition it includes conversations about race and racism--which is a subject of discussion and point of contention because it has been (and continues to be) an issue. 

 

I would never refer to all black people, that's what you did.  And yes, Switch, I will go on.  I am also referring to the city sanitation workers that I have come to know in the 29 years here, the city councilmen who's friends were shot and killed by another black man in a dispute with our city that centered on racism.  I am referring to the hundreds and probably thousands of people I got to know workling the same public housing beat for many years......as one of only two white cops there. 

You have no business speaking for any of them.  You have no business trying to convince other people what it feels like to be black, or what black people experience because of their skin color.  You are more judgemental than any racist could ever be.  You wrongly assume that all black people feel like you think they do......how dare you....really.  You are part of the problem. 

I'm not going to have any more discussion about it.  You can go on and have your AA discussion and pretend you are helping a problem you can't even identify except in the context of some history that largtely no longer applies except in the minds of people like you who perpetuate racism by separating the life experiences of people of different colors.  Grow up.

Oh yeah, that's right--I'm the racist. 

I'm not "pretending to help" a damn thing except calling you out on another case of your crazy BS. I stated early on in this thread that I don't believe in AA.  Never have. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge racism exists. Perpetuating it and acknowledging  it exists are two different things.

I haven't made a single statement about what all black people feel--the ONLY person who has done that in this thread is you.  Damn, your hypocrisy is astounding.

And if you think you really got to know hundreds of people by working as a cop in a housing project, you are more delusional than I could have imagined.

Switch, there's no question that racism still exists and I think LB would agree with that.  However, to say that a poor white kid growing up in poverty is completely different than a poor black kid growing up in poverty simply due to his skin color is incorrect and disrespectful to the black kid in my opinion.  Kids get picked on and bullied for all kinds of reasons (race, ethnicity, religion, appearance, cleanliness, sexual orientation, you name it).  Racism was horrible 50 years ago because it was essentially sanctioned by the state and society.  It was OK to demean and destroy minorities, but that is no longer the case. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is not accepted anywhere in our society and that is the true victory over racism in America.
Any one of us in this thread would do anything we could if we witnessed a blatant example of racism, and the vast majority of people in our society would do the same.

We all have experienced racism in our lives to one extent or another, some of it is more overt and some of it is not.  I was called a white a## cracker by a homeless guy in downtown Omaha within the last month when I didn't give him any money.  OK, so what?  I felt sorry for the guy and moved on.

I just saw this article a few minutes ago that's a good example of societies tolerance of racism.
Ala. Dem Offers $100K for Proof of White Families Adopting Black Kids; Families Show Up

Society does not allow racism against blacks.  If a white senator repeatedly made prejudicial and racial statements towards black people he would be humiliated and likely be forced to resign.  It is not tolerated.
However, we as a society do not have the same feelings towards racism against whites, so it is accepted by our society and continues to happen on larger and larger platforms.  In a way societies view on racism against other ethnicities is probably 20 or 30 years behind our views on racism against blacks.

Don't misread what I'm saying to complain that whites are being persecuted for being white because I'm not.  I'm simply saying that the level that a society accepts and allows racism is the extent that racism exists.

Again Tony, and with all due respect, you sort of do this a lot, you're confusing racism or bigotry with discrimination. They're not interchangeable because they're not the same thing. There's no question that racism/bigotry exist in large measure among blacks as well as whites, and there are racists/bigots of every ehnicity. But there's a big difference between a person not liking me or judging me because of the color of my skin and denying me something that I have the legal right to (whether it's a job or a loan or an apartment) because of it. There's no question that I probably encounter black people every day who are racists. The difference, and it's an important distinction, is that most black people (that I know, at least) can give you not one, but several, and in some cases many examples of times they were discriminated against because of their race-- denied a table in a restaurant, hassled by a cop, etc. Most white people, including me, would be hard pressed to give even one example of a time where someone's prejudice against their ethnicity cost them something of value like the examples I gave before. I've never been discriminated against because of my race. Ever (ok, unless you count getting picked last for pickup basketball...). The only times I've ever been legitimately discriminated against, it's been because I was Jewish (and usually came at the hands of other white guys).

Excellent clarification and your basketball example made me laugh.  :-)

My main issue with discrimination in the workplace and such is that it's already illegal and frowned upon by society, so what else can we do?

Employers discriminate based on age, sex, orientation, race, appearance, religion, attitude, smell, hairstyle, shoes, criminal record, and probably 100 other things.  Some discrimination such as race, sex, and age are illegal but the vast majority are not.  Some discrimination's such as criminal record are even encouraged.

Even if racial discrimination is rampant today and a minority person can't get a job at 1 out of 3 employers based on their skin color the simple fact is we all know that they can get a job in the other 2 if they put forth the effort, get educated, and become the best candidate for the job.

The unfortunate problem is that a huge percentage of minorities are not getting a good education and they're not putting forth the effort because everyone is telling them that they can't (or it's very hard to) succeed due to "racism" and "discrimination".  So now even if the odds were 1 in 3 they now turn into 3 out of 3 jobs turn them away because the 2 that don't discriminate won't hire them based on their lack of qualifications.  Or worse yet, the kid never even tries.

Back to the topic of this thread, I'm a huge supporter of need based scholarships and grants for kids that grow up in poor neighborhoods.  An uneducated white kid applying for a white collar job has the exact same odds of getting the job as an uneducated black kid because the odds are zero for both.



2014-04-25 6:49 PM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

User image

Champion
18680
50005000500020001000500100252525
Lost in the Luminiferous Aether
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Most white people, including me, would be hard pressed to give even one example of a time where someone's prejudice against their ethnicity cost them something of value like the examples I gave before. I've never been discriminated against because of my race. Ever (ok, unless you count getting picked last for pickup basketball...). The only times I've ever been legitimately discriminated against, it's been because I was Jewish (and usually came at the hands of other white guys).


Be happy about that, I have, down to and including being beat up for being white. The funny thing is if you're hassled by a cop and you're white you attribute it to something else. If your black and hassled by a cop it must be because of race. Seems like a pretty narrow view to me.

Funny how there are a wide variety of minorities in this country depending on how you define it. Race, gender, religion, etc. but it always seems to come back to talking about poor black kids. How about we stop acting like it's the 1950's and how about we stop telling poor black kids that they can't make it without our special help and protection. They just might surprise you! We have created a culture that tell some people that they must have our help to get bye in this world that didn't used to be there when other ethnic groups emigrated in large numbers and faced discrimination. Somehow or another those groups managed to assimilate despite prejudice and without special protections. African Americans are a special case yes, I won't deny that, but at what point is enough enough and when does special treatment begin to foster the racism it is meant to combat?
2014-04-25 10:02 PM
in reply to: trinnas

User image

Pro
15124
500050005000100
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

On the way home from a track meet tonight, my son and I had a pretty cool conversation regarding one of the teams at his meet from an all black high school.  My kid says, "those guys are badass in the relays, and they were really proud of their school but in a cool way, they had a lot more school spirit than we do at my school". 

I swear, it was all I could do to keep from saying, "they are harassed, bullied, and discriminated against constantly".  LMAO   

Instead we ended up talking about the kids who attend his school after their inner city school  lost accreditation from the state and they were allowed to pick a school they wanted to attend.  There was a lot of gnashing of teeth back in the summer when it was decided our district would take the kids who wanted to move schools.  The kids get along famously and there has not been a single issue......go figure.

I'm going to say it again because it will always bear repeating.  I don't know a single black person who wants a white person to decide that they are "harassed, bullied, or discriminated against"......and I can easily say I don't want any white person deciding that for my black co-workers and friends.  They don't need your help......it's degrading and perpetuates racism.

People are people.....we all deserve personal dignity.

 

2014-04-25 11:08 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Member
5452
50001001001001002525
NC
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Originally posted by Left Brain

On the way home from a track meet tonight, my son and I had a pretty cool conversation regarding one of the teams at his meet from an all black high school.  My kid says, "those guys are badass in the relays, and they were really proud of their school but in a cool way, they had a lot more school spirit than we do at my school". 



So I signed my now 8yo up for track through the county program. It's very, very different than his swim and soccer programs. They are, as you could only imagine, very country club and very focused on developing young athletes long term (this is awesome, of course). Track is different. These coaches really adore the kids, but they will bless a child out. I love this. Just this week, the boy told me how much he loved track because the coaches were so "hard on us." Here's the 7/8 4x100 team celebrating after taking down the win.

2014-04-25 11:10 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

User image

Pro
15124
500050005000100
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by Left Brain

On the way home from a track meet tonight, my son and I had a pretty cool conversation regarding one of the teams at his meet from an all black high school.  My kid says, "those guys are badass in the relays, and they were really proud of their school but in a cool way, they had a lot more school spirit than we do at my school". 

So I signed my now 8yo up for track through the county program. It's very, very different than his swim and soccer programs. They are, as you could only imagine, very country club and very focused on developing young athletes long term (this is awesome, of course). Track is different. These coaches really adore the kids, but they will bless a child out. I love this. Just this week, the boy told me how much he loved track because the coaches were so "hard on us." Here's the 7/8 4x100 team celebrating after taking down the win.

Where's the pic?  I want to see it!

2014-04-25 11:14 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Member
5452
50001001001001002525
NC
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Stand by. I'm not awesome at this nonsense.



2014-04-25 11:15 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

User image

Member
5452
50001001001001002525
NC
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions




(gdjr.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
gdjr.jpg (826KB - 2 downloads)
2014-04-25 11:27 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

User image

Pro
15124
500050005000100
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

That is so awesome dude.....way to go!  Although.....it does appear your kid is bullying the others.   bwaaaahahhahaha!!! 

2014-04-25 11:32 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Member
5452
50001001001001002525
NC
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Originally posted by Left Brain

Although.....it does appear your kid is bullying the others.   


Wait, how do you know who my kid is?

2014-04-25 11:42 PM
in reply to: Goosedog

User image

Pro
15124
500050005000100
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by Left Brain Although.....it does appear your kid is bullying the others.   
Wait, how do you know who my kid is?

Because he looks the same without underwear on his head. 

2014-04-25 11:51 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

User image

Member
5452
50001001001001002525
NC
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Originally posted by Left Brain
Because he looks the same without underwear on his head. 




Busted.



2014-04-25 11:53 PM
in reply to: 0

User image

Pro
15124
500050005000100
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

Originally posted by Goosedog
Originally posted by Left Brain Because he looks the same without underwear on his head. 
Busted.

Keep him rolling brother....he looks built for it!  In body and spirit.



Edited by Left Brain 2014-04-25 11:55 PM
2014-04-26 6:37 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

New user
900
500100100100100
,
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by mr2tony I agree that people in this day and age shouldn't be judged on what they look like and we should all just be `people.' Let me know when that starts in the U.S.

Whe you make a statement like you did, when you go on about how black peple are bullied, harrassed, etc.......are you not making a judgement about a black person's life based on their skin color?  How in the hell do you differentiate between behavior that you detest and your own judgemental words?

If you truly don't believe people should be judged on what they look like then why do you do it?  Why do you assume things about their life experiences based on their skin color?  Why do you feel like you can makje blanket statements about black people if not for your own judgement based on the color of their skin?

It took me a long time to get to the point I am with race and racism.  Contrary to what people like Switch think about personal experieces like working full time in a public housing project, and supervising a unit that is over 50% black officers, and having a black partner for 6 years who was shot and killed over an ounce of marijuana....it does make a huge difference.  I have been blessed to be able to have very frank conversations about race and racism with black men that I have a bond with due to our work situation.  They don't trust you.  They don't understand why you think you can speak for them....and they damn sure don't think you have a clue about how it feels to be them.  These are great men and women.....and they sure as hell don't see the world like you do.....and I promise they don't go through life feeling like their skin color makes them a target for bullying, harassment, discrimination, etc.

Who are you referring to with "they"? The people you work with?  The black people who work as COPS?  Right.  They're definitely the "norm" for blacks.  Do go on.

I know you can't possibly be referring to all black people, as I could give you hundreds (Thousands?) of references to blacks specifically addressing discrimination/bullying/harassment based on the color of their skin.  Maybe for fun we should just stick to recent cases with cops--Rodney King, Trayvon Martin, OJ SImspon, etc.  Of course, we all know these are just the high profile cases.  The number of wrongly convicted blacks in all levels of the judicial system speaks volumes. 

If you and Tuwood think his experience wouldn't have been harder as black kid, I just flat out disagree with that.  A black kid growing up in this country in the 70s and 80s, if I have Tony's age right, given Tony's exact same circumstances would have had it worse because of the color of his skin (I don't even know where Tony grew up, but we should throw that into the mix.)  That doesn't mean Tony's situation didn't suck.  It means that a black kid would have had race issues on top of everything else. I don't want that to be true, but I absolutely think it is. 

This is an AA thread.  By definition it includes conversations about race and racism--which is a subject of discussion and point of contention because it has been (and continues to be) an issue. 

 

I would never refer to all black people, that's what you did.  And yes, Switch, I will go on.  I am also referring to the city sanitation workers that I have come to know in the 29 years here, the city councilmen who's friends were shot and killed by another black man in a dispute with our city that centered on racism.  I am referring to the hundreds and probably thousands of people I got to know workling the same public housing beat for many years......as one of only two white cops there. 

You have no business speaking for any of them.  You have no business trying to convince other people what it feels like to be black, or what black people experience because of their skin color.  You are more judgemental than any racist could ever be.  You wrongly assume that all black people feel like you think they do......how dare you....really.  You are part of the problem. 

I'm not going to have any more discussion about it.  You can go on and have your AA discussion and pretend you are helping a problem you can't even identify except in the context of some history that largtely no longer applies except in the minds of people like you who perpetuate racism by separating the life experiences of people of different colors.  Grow up.

Oh yeah, that's right--I'm the racist. 

I'm not "pretending to help" a damn thing except calling you out on another case of your crazy BS. I stated early on in this thread that I don't believe in AA.  Never have. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge racism exists. Perpetuating it and acknowledging  it exists are two different things.

I haven't made a single statement about what all black people feel--the ONLY person who has done that in this thread is you.  Damn, your hypocrisy is astounding.

And if you think you really got to know hundreds of people by working as a cop in a housing project, you are more delusional than I could have imagined.

Switch, there's no question that racism still exists and I think LB would agree with that.  However, to say that a poor white kid growing up in poverty is completely different than a poor black kid growing up in poverty simply due to his skin color is incorrect and disrespectful to the black kid in my opinion.  Kids get picked on and bullied for all kinds of reasons (race, ethnicity, religion, appearance, cleanliness, sexual orientation, you name it).  Racism was horrible 50 years ago because it was essentially sanctioned by the state and society.  It was OK to demean and destroy minorities, but that is no longer the case. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is not accepted anywhere in our society and that is the true victory over racism in America.
Any one of us in this thread would do anything we could if we witnessed a blatant example of racism, and the vast majority of people in our society would do the same.

We all have experienced racism in our lives to one extent or another, some of it is more overt and some of it is not.  I was called a white a## cracker by a homeless guy in downtown Omaha within the last month when I didn't give him any money.  OK, so what?  I felt sorry for the guy and moved on.

I just saw this article a few minutes ago that's a good example of societies tolerance of racism.
Ala. Dem Offers $100K for Proof of White Families Adopting Black Kids; Families Show Up

Society does not allow racism against blacks.  If a white senator repeatedly made prejudicial and racial statements towards black people he would be humiliated and likely be forced to resign.  It is not tolerated.
However, we as a society do not have the same feelings towards racism against whites, so it is accepted by our society and continues to happen on larger and larger platforms.  In a way societies view on racism against other ethnicities is probably 20 or 30 years behind our views on racism against blacks.

Don't misread what I'm saying to complain that whites are being persecuted for being white because I'm not.  I'm simply saying that the level that a society accepts and allows racism is the extent that racism exists.




Again Tony, and with all due respect, you sort of do this a lot, you're confusing racism or bigotry with discrimination. They're not interchangeable because they're not the same thing. There's no question that racism/bigotry exist in large measure among blacks as well as whites, and there are racists/bigots of every ehnicity. But there's a big difference between a person not liking me or judging me because of the color of my skin and denying me something that I have the legal right to (whether it's a job or a loan or an apartment) because of it. There's no question that I probably encounter black people every day who are racists. The difference, and it's an important distinction, is that most black people (that I know, at least) can give you not one, but several, and in some cases many examples of times they were discriminated against because of their race-- denied a table in a restaurant, hassled by a cop, etc. Most white people, including me, would be hard pressed to give even one example of a time where someone's prejudice against their ethnicity cost them something of value like the examples I gave before. I've never been discriminated against because of my race. Ever (ok, unless you count getting picked last for pickup basketball...). The only times I've ever been legitimately discriminated against, it's been because I was Jewish (and usually came at the hands of other white guys).


On a personal note, your post made me laugh. Back in the mid 90's I went back to school to work on another degree in a major northeast city. My family and I had never been treated that way, ever. Because we talked slow with a southern drawl it was assumed we were just stupid bumpkins. My kids in lower elementary school were called rednecks, hicks, little crackers, etc. For me there were certain professors that assumed that I would do poorly. What topped it off was how many times when meeting people they would ask why we hate blacks so much down south. It was just crazy.
2014-04-26 7:32 AM
in reply to: NXS

User image

Champion
7821
50002000500100100100
Brooklyn, NY
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by switch

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by mr2tony I agree that people in this day and age shouldn't be judged on what they look like and we should all just be `people.' Let me know when that starts in the U.S.

Whe you make a statement like you did, when you go on about how black peple are bullied, harrassed, etc.......are you not making a judgement about a black person's life based on their skin color?  How in the hell do you differentiate between behavior that you detest and your own judgemental words?

If you truly don't believe people should be judged on what they look like then why do you do it?  Why do you assume things about their life experiences based on their skin color?  Why do you feel like you can makje blanket statements about black people if not for your own judgement based on the color of their skin?

It took me a long time to get to the point I am with race and racism.  Contrary to what people like Switch think about personal experieces like working full time in a public housing project, and supervising a unit that is over 50% black officers, and having a black partner for 6 years who was shot and killed over an ounce of marijuana....it does make a huge difference.  I have been blessed to be able to have very frank conversations about race and racism with black men that I have a bond with due to our work situation.  They don't trust you.  They don't understand why you think you can speak for them....and they damn sure don't think you have a clue about how it feels to be them.  These are great men and women.....and they sure as hell don't see the world like you do.....and I promise they don't go through life feeling like their skin color makes them a target for bullying, harassment, discrimination, etc.

Who are you referring to with "they"? The people you work with?  The black people who work as COPS?  Right.  They're definitely the "norm" for blacks.  Do go on.

I know you can't possibly be referring to all black people, as I could give you hundreds (Thousands?) of references to blacks specifically addressing discrimination/bullying/harassment based on the color of their skin.  Maybe for fun we should just stick to recent cases with cops--Rodney King, Trayvon Martin, OJ SImspon, etc.  Of course, we all know these are just the high profile cases.  The number of wrongly convicted blacks in all levels of the judicial system speaks volumes. 

If you and Tuwood think his experience wouldn't have been harder as black kid, I just flat out disagree with that.  A black kid growing up in this country in the 70s and 80s, if I have Tony's age right, given Tony's exact same circumstances would have had it worse because of the color of his skin (I don't even know where Tony grew up, but we should throw that into the mix.)  That doesn't mean Tony's situation didn't suck.  It means that a black kid would have had race issues on top of everything else. I don't want that to be true, but I absolutely think it is. 

This is an AA thread.  By definition it includes conversations about race and racism--which is a subject of discussion and point of contention because it has been (and continues to be) an issue. 

 

I would never refer to all black people, that's what you did.  And yes, Switch, I will go on.  I am also referring to the city sanitation workers that I have come to know in the 29 years here, the city councilmen who's friends were shot and killed by another black man in a dispute with our city that centered on racism.  I am referring to the hundreds and probably thousands of people I got to know workling the same public housing beat for many years......as one of only two white cops there. 

You have no business speaking for any of them.  You have no business trying to convince other people what it feels like to be black, or what black people experience because of their skin color.  You are more judgemental than any racist could ever be.  You wrongly assume that all black people feel like you think they do......how dare you....really.  You are part of the problem. 

I'm not going to have any more discussion about it.  You can go on and have your AA discussion and pretend you are helping a problem you can't even identify except in the context of some history that largtely no longer applies except in the minds of people like you who perpetuate racism by separating the life experiences of people of different colors.  Grow up.

Oh yeah, that's right--I'm the racist. 

I'm not "pretending to help" a damn thing except calling you out on another case of your crazy BS. I stated early on in this thread that I don't believe in AA.  Never have. That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge racism exists. Perpetuating it and acknowledging  it exists are two different things.

I haven't made a single statement about what all black people feel--the ONLY person who has done that in this thread is you.  Damn, your hypocrisy is astounding.

And if you think you really got to know hundreds of people by working as a cop in a housing project, you are more delusional than I could have imagined.

Switch, there's no question that racism still exists and I think LB would agree with that.  However, to say that a poor white kid growing up in poverty is completely different than a poor black kid growing up in poverty simply due to his skin color is incorrect and disrespectful to the black kid in my opinion.  Kids get picked on and bullied for all kinds of reasons (race, ethnicity, religion, appearance, cleanliness, sexual orientation, you name it).  Racism was horrible 50 years ago because it was essentially sanctioned by the state and society.  It was OK to demean and destroy minorities, but that is no longer the case. It doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is not accepted anywhere in our society and that is the true victory over racism in America.
Any one of us in this thread would do anything we could if we witnessed a blatant example of racism, and the vast majority of people in our society would do the same.

We all have experienced racism in our lives to one extent or another, some of it is more overt and some of it is not.  I was called a white a## cracker by a homeless guy in downtown Omaha within the last month when I didn't give him any money.  OK, so what?  I felt sorry for the guy and moved on.

I just saw this article a few minutes ago that's a good example of societies tolerance of racism.
Ala. Dem Offers $100K for Proof of White Families Adopting Black Kids; Families Show Up

Society does not allow racism against blacks.  If a white senator repeatedly made prejudicial and racial statements towards black people he would be humiliated and likely be forced to resign.  It is not tolerated.
However, we as a society do not have the same feelings towards racism against whites, so it is accepted by our society and continues to happen on larger and larger platforms.  In a way societies view on racism against other ethnicities is probably 20 or 30 years behind our views on racism against blacks.

Don't misread what I'm saying to complain that whites are being persecuted for being white because I'm not.  I'm simply saying that the level that a society accepts and allows racism is the extent that racism exists.




Again Tony, and with all due respect, you sort of do this a lot, you're confusing racism or bigotry with discrimination. They're not interchangeable because they're not the same thing. There's no question that racism/bigotry exist in large measure among blacks as well as whites, and there are racists/bigots of every ehnicity. But there's a big difference between a person not liking me or judging me because of the color of my skin and denying me something that I have the legal right to (whether it's a job or a loan or an apartment) because of it. There's no question that I probably encounter black people every day who are racists. The difference, and it's an important distinction, is that most black people (that I know, at least) can give you not one, but several, and in some cases many examples of times they were discriminated against because of their race-- denied a table in a restaurant, hassled by a cop, etc. Most white people, including me, would be hard pressed to give even one example of a time where someone's prejudice against their ethnicity cost them something of value like the examples I gave before. I've never been discriminated against because of my race. Ever (ok, unless you count getting picked last for pickup basketball...). The only times I've ever been legitimately discriminated against, it's been because I was Jewish (and usually came at the hands of other white guys).


On a personal note, your post made me laugh. Back in the mid 90's I went back to school to work on another degree in a major northeast city. My family and I had never been treated that way, ever. Because we talked slow with a southern drawl it was assumed we were just stupid bumpkins. My kids in lower elementary school were called rednecks, hicks, little crackers, etc. For me there were certain professors that assumed that I would do poorly. What topped it off was how many times when meeting people they would ask why we hate blacks so much down south. It was just crazy.


Not sure what point you're tryng to make here, but glad to know I made you laugh.
2014-04-28 8:04 AM
in reply to: jmk-brooklyn

User image

Master
2945
200050010010010010025
Centennial, CO
Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions

The difference, and it's an important distinction, is that most black people (that I know, at least) can give you not one, but several, and in some cases many examples of times they were discriminated against because of their race-- denied a table in a restaurant, hassled by a cop, etc. 

This statement (sorry, couldn't quote it properly), drew my attention, because this is exactly why AA is a bad thing.  In many areas, whether it be college admission, or work opportunities, etc, people, even white people are discriminated against.  Why should one group get special treatment to fill a quota.  The idea of quotas is the problem because it does not give just due to the person or persons most qualified to do the job.  In most cases those people have worked just as hard (if not harder) to reach a level of academic or physical ability to succeed at said position.  That is why it was determined that AA was not the right thing to do.  

Yes people can and do discriminate, and that is equally if not more wrong.  But in this case, two wrongs do not make it right.

2014-05-02 1:09 AM
in reply to: velocomp

Subject: RE: Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions
I am actually a Michigan voter, and the court made the right choice.


New Thread
Other Resources The Political Joe » Supreme Court upholds Michigan’s ban on racial preferences in university admissions Rss Feed  
Show Per page
 
 
of 3
 
 
RELATED POSTS

NC school bans 9 yo's My Little Pony Backpack Pages: 1 2 3

Started by switch
Views: 3376 Posts: 56

2014-03-25 2:28 PM Aarondb4

Incandescent light bulb ban Pages: 1 2

Started by zed707
Views: 2646 Posts: 29

2014-01-27 5:44 PM Kido

block funding to schools that ban imaginary guns

Started by idahocraig
Views: 1429 Posts: 15

2013-07-12 1:36 PM tuwood

Supreme Court stops use of key part of Voting Rights Act

Started by DanielG
Views: 1953 Posts: 22

2013-07-03 3:23 PM TriRSquared

Texas cheerleaders win in court again over Bible banners Pages: 1 2 3

Started by DanielG
Views: 5377 Posts: 62

2013-05-27 11:05 PM ChineseDemocracy
RELATED ARTICLES
date : May 30, 2005
author : Team BT
comments : 0
Hamilton has vowed to fight the allegations and “clear his name.” Is he guilty? You decide.