Above Threshold Training. Why do it?
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2014-08-21 7:31 PM |
46 | Subject: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Is there any need for a triathlete to train at levels above threshold? According to this article from Joe Friel, it is only really necessary for surges such as in cycling events. But in non-drafting triathlon events, I don't see any reason why to train it. http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2011/08/intervals-part-5.html%20 I'm referring to anaerobic endurance and sprint power training. |
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2014-08-21 7:36 PM in reply to: elliot.power |
Member 247 Loves Park | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? As per running it will improve your running economy a lot quicker (also up VO2 Max but so will running around threshold) |
2014-08-21 7:47 PM in reply to: elliot.power |
Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Working on your VO2 max effort intervals creates room for threshold improvements. Lets say a brand new cyclist starts out with a 1 hour max power (threshold) of 200 watts and a 5 minute max power (VO2 max) of 275 watts. If that cyclist has a goal of eventually getting their 1 hour power up to say 250 watts, then most certainly their VO2 max will have to rise as well. If all you do is threshold workouts, yes, your VO2 max will also raise naturally, but the point is that until you reach your genetic ceiling for VO2 max, you should always spend some time working on it if you want to also reach your threshold potential. It's not to say that triathletes need to use VO2 max efforts while racing (as compared to bike racers), but just because it's not used during racing doesn't mean it's not applicable to bike fitness.
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2014-08-21 7:51 PM in reply to: Jason N |
46 | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by Jason N Working on your VO2 max effort intervals creates room for threshold improvements. Lets say a brand new cyclist starts out with a 1 hour max power (threshold) of 200 watts and a 5 minute max power (VO2 max) of 275 watts. If that cyclist has a goal of eventually getting their 1 hour power up to say 250 watts, then most certainly their VO2 max will have to rise as well. If all you do is threshold workouts, yes, your VO2 max will also raise naturally, but the point is that until you reach your genetic ceiling for VO2 max, you should always spend some time working on it if you want to also reach your threshold potential. It's not to say that triathletes need to use VO2 max efforts while racing (as compared to bike racers), but just because it's not used during racing doesn't mean it's not applicable to bike fitness.
So are you saying that if I always train below my threshold level (30min TT speed) I will never improve my TT speed? I need to train faster than my TT speed to make my next TT faster? |
2014-08-21 7:54 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by Jason N Working on your VO2 max effort intervals creates room for threshold improvements. Lets say a brand new cyclist starts out with a 1 hour max power (threshold) of 200 watts and a 5 minute max power (VO2 max) of 275 watts. If that cyclist has a goal of eventually getting their 1 hour power up to say 250 watts, then most certainly their VO2 max will have to rise as well. If all you do is threshold workouts, yes, your VO2 max will also raise naturally, but the point is that until you reach your genetic ceiling for VO2 max, you should always spend some time working on it if you want to also reach your threshold potential. It's not to say that triathletes need to use VO2 max efforts while racing (as compared to bike racers), but just because it's not used during racing doesn't mean it's not applicable to bike fitness.
And since pictures, tables, and charts can really help. Table 1 defines the zones and Table 2 shows the benefits of each. There are a lot of things listed there, but look mostly at Increased Lactate Threshold and Increased VO2 Max. You do work VO2 max some in zones 2, 3 & 4, but the most benefits come from Z5. Above threshold. |
2014-08-21 7:57 PM in reply to: 0 |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by elliot.power So are you saying that if I always train below my threshold level (30min TT speed) I will never improve my TT speed? No. Gains will be more limited, but could still be notable at times. Some training above threshold can help you make more gains. This is not all or nothing, but understanding various aspects you are trying to work on. Edited by brigby1 2014-08-21 7:57 PM |
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2014-08-21 8:21 PM in reply to: elliot.power |
Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by elliot.power Originally posted by Jason N So are you saying that if I always train below my threshold level (30min TT speed) I will never improve my TT speed? I need to train faster than my TT speed to make my next TT faster? Working on your VO2 max effort intervals creates room for threshold improvements. Lets say a brand new cyclist starts out with a 1 hour max power (threshold) of 200 watts and a 5 minute max power (VO2 max) of 275 watts. If that cyclist has a goal of eventually getting their 1 hour power up to say 250 watts, then most certainly their VO2 max will have to rise as well. If all you do is threshold workouts, yes, your VO2 max will also raise naturally, but the point is that until you reach your genetic ceiling for VO2 max, you should always spend some time working on it if you want to also reach your threshold potential. It's not to say that triathletes need to use VO2 max efforts while racing (as compared to bike racers), but just because it's not used during racing doesn't mean it's not applicable to bike fitness.
No...pretty sure nothing in my post said that so I have no idea where you got that from. As brigby mentioned, it's not an all or nothing. Building bike fitness is a result of ALL of your riding. Even the easy stuff where you're riding at conversational pace. Riding at various levels stresses different parts of your fitness (as linked by brigby above) so it is beneficial to work on all those areas if you want to raise your fitness as high as possible. Again, the point being that just because a triathlete will almost never use a VO2 max type effort in racing, it doesn't mean it's those type of efforts in training will not improve their overall bike fitness and their ability to raise their threshold power (which is more applicable to triathletes). |
2014-08-21 8:24 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by elliot.power Originally posted by Jason N So are you saying that if I always train below my threshold level (30min TT speed) I will never improve my TT speed? I need to train faster than my TT speed to make my next TT faster? Working on your VO2 max effort intervals creates room for threshold improvements. Lets say a brand new cyclist starts out with a 1 hour max power (threshold) of 200 watts and a 5 minute max power (VO2 max) of 275 watts. If that cyclist has a goal of eventually getting their 1 hour power up to say 250 watts, then most certainly their VO2 max will have to rise as well. If all you do is threshold workouts, yes, your VO2 max will also raise naturally, but the point is that until you reach your genetic ceiling for VO2 max, you should always spend some time working on it if you want to also reach your threshold potential. It's not to say that triathletes need to use VO2 max efforts while racing (as compared to bike racers), but just because it's not used during racing doesn't mean it's not applicable to bike fitness.
No...pretty sure nothing in my post said that so I have no idea where you got that from. As brigby mentioned, it's not an all or nothing. Building bike fitness is a result of ALL of your riding. Even the easy stuff where you're riding at conversational pace. Riding at various levels stresses different parts of your fitness (as linked by brigby above) so it is beneficial to work on all those areas if you want to raise your fitness as high as possible. Again, the point being that just because a triathlete will almost never use a VO2 max type effort in racing, it doesn't mean it's those type of efforts in training will not improve their overall bike fitness and their ability to raise their threshold power (which is more applicable to triathletes). Word! It works for running and swimming too. |
2014-08-21 9:07 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Member 1487 Scottsdale, AZ | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? What I've always read (and apply in my cycling classes) is that you spend time both below AND above threshold. Both have great results - each has a different training stimulus. With threshold, you either pull it up (from training above) or push it up (from training below). Plus in real life, it is beneficial to have to capability to push above your limits sometimes - even if you don't race above threshold. Hill surges passing someone getting through a green light before it turns red spending time at the front of a pace line Just being able to dig a little deeper without burning too many matches...works for many of my students! Just my .02 |
2014-08-21 9:29 PM in reply to: Jason N |
46 | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by Jason N Originally posted by elliot.power Originally posted by Jason N So are you saying that if I always train below my threshold level (30min TT speed) I will never improve my TT speed? I need to train faster than my TT speed to make my next TT faster? Working on your VO2 max effort intervals creates room for threshold improvements. Lets say a brand new cyclist starts out with a 1 hour max power (threshold) of 200 watts and a 5 minute max power (VO2 max) of 275 watts. If that cyclist has a goal of eventually getting their 1 hour power up to say 250 watts, then most certainly their VO2 max will have to rise as well. If all you do is threshold workouts, yes, your VO2 max will also raise naturally, but the point is that until you reach your genetic ceiling for VO2 max, you should always spend some time working on it if you want to also reach your threshold potential. It's not to say that triathletes need to use VO2 max efforts while racing (as compared to bike racers), but just because it's not used during racing doesn't mean it's not applicable to bike fitness.
No...pretty sure nothing in my post said that so I have no idea where you got that from. As brigby mentioned, it's not an all or nothing. Building bike fitness is a result of ALL of your riding. Even the easy stuff where you're riding at conversational pace. Riding at various levels stresses different parts of your fitness (as linked by brigby above) so it is beneficial to work on all those areas if you want to raise your fitness as high as possible. Again, the point being that just because a triathlete will almost never use a VO2 max type effort in racing, it doesn't mean it's those type of efforts in training will not improve their overall bike fitness and their ability to raise their threshold power (which is more applicable to triathletes). Ok thanks for clarifying. I'll look to incorporate some of these above threshold intervals as I get closer to my races. I'm also wondering if I can include working on different types of interval fitness during the same session. e.g. can I do some longer steady intervals for 20min and then at the end of the session do shorter/faster intervals of 2 minutes training for both an imrpoved 40km TT time and a improved speed/power in the same 60-90min indoor trainer session? |
2014-08-22 8:57 AM in reply to: elliot.power |
Member 42 | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Typically those above threshold training sessions come early in the build phase of a TT training plan. As you get closer to your race you should be doing more specific training. If you were racing Crits or road races it would be more important to do the Vo2 work close to your A race, but for triathlon, I would think the hard efforts come early on. |
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2014-08-22 9:15 AM in reply to: jheathjr |
409 Durham, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Can I get an example of what this would look like? If I wanted to add some of these into my ride tomorrow what would I do? |
2014-08-22 9:24 AM in reply to: Lupy |
2014-08-22 9:25 AM in reply to: jheathjr |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by jheathjr Typically those above threshold training sessions come early in the build phase of a TT training plan. As you get closer to your race you should be doing more specific training. If you were racing Crits or road races it would be more important to do the Vo2 work close to your A race, but for triathlon, I would think the hard efforts come early on. It depends on the distance you are racing and your proficiency/level of fitness. Usually about 5 or 6 days out from a race my kid does a wicked fast triple brick workout with short efforts well above his threshold. It sets him up well for a race. |
2014-08-22 9:35 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by jheathjr Typically those above threshold training sessions come early in the build phase of a TT training plan. As you get closer to your race you should be doing more specific training. If you were racing Crits or road races it would be more important to do the Vo2 work close to your A race, but for triathlon, I would think the hard efforts come early on. It depends on the distance you are racing and your proficiency/level of fitness. Usually about 5 or 6 days out from a race my kid does a wicked fast triple brick workout with short efforts well above his threshold. It sets him up well for a race. Yes, and I also like to do some above threshold work in that same time frame. Especially for short course. |
2014-08-22 10:39 AM in reply to: brigby1 |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by brigby1 Before my sprint races I've found that after months (weeks) of building, ~3-4 weeks before its a nice change to morph into more race pace and interval training for the run. As often stated, reduce the volume but build the intensity, then taper for a week heading into race day.Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by jheathjr Typically those above threshold training sessions come early in the build phase of a TT training plan. As you get closer to your race you should be doing more specific training. If you were racing Crits or road races it would be more important to do the Vo2 work close to your A race, but for triathlon, I would think the hard efforts come early on. It depends on the distance you are racing and your proficiency/level of fitness. Usually about 5 or 6 days out from a race my kid does a wicked fast triple brick workout with short efforts well above his threshold. It sets him up well for a race. Yes, and I also like to do some above threshold work in that same time frame. Especially for short course. As was stated above in another post a lot of times VO2 work is done early in a program (raises the roof) then morphs into threshold (critical power) workouts (raises the ceiling). For instance take a look at the BT winter cycling training program. There are 3 distinct phases which in the beginning versions were called VO2 Max (now Improve Maximum Aerobic Capacity), 20' max power (now Improve Slow Glycolysis) & 60' max power (now Improve critical power). I personally find VO2 and the middle phase (e.g. 6x4', 4x6', 3*10') type workouts easier. I dread the 3x15', 2x20' CP type workouts unless its 50*F in the garage, but they but the hair on your chest!!! |
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2014-08-22 1:50 PM in reply to: elliot.power |
Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by elliot.power I'm also wondering if I can include working on different types of interval fitness during the same session. e.g. can I do some longer steady intervals for 20min and then at the end of the session do shorter/faster intervals of 2 minutes training for both an imrpoved 40km TT time and a improved speed/power in the same 60-90min indoor trainer session? Well, it depends how you structure the intervals. If you were shooting for your typical threshold level 20' intervals to begin with (at roughly 90-98% of threshold power), then you're going to be pretty shelled after those 20' intervals. Likely you won't be able to do those 2' intervals at the end at a VO2 max type level (110-120% of FTP...considering it's only 2'). If you can, you probably sand bagged the 20' intervals too much. But if you plan to ride the 20' intervals say at tempo-ish power (83-88%) then you probably could pull off the 2' intervals at the end. I wouldn't say either workout is "better", but it's just important to keep in mind what is realistically possible. 60-90 minute interval workouts generally leave you wiped out at the end if you did it right so when deciding what intervals to do, you have to allocate how much energy you want to use up for each interval. It's nice to say that you will shoot for 2x20' at 100% threshold power and then do 3x5' at VO2 max power to finish it off...but realistically it's not possible. |
2014-08-22 2:39 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? Originally posted by Jason N Yeah, 2x20' at 100% then intervals, I don't think so!Originally posted by elliot.power I'm also wondering if I can include working on different types of interval fitness during the same session. e.g. can I do some longer steady intervals for 20min and then at the end of the session do shorter/faster intervals of 2 minutes training for both an imrpoved 40km TT time and a improved speed/power in the same 60-90min indoor trainer session? Well, it depends how you structure the intervals. If you were shooting for your typical threshold level 20' intervals to begin with (at roughly 90-98% of threshold power), then you're going to be pretty shelled after those 20' intervals. Likely you won't be able to do those 2' intervals at the end at a VO2 max type level (110-120% of FTP...considering it's only 2'). If you can, you probably sand bagged the 20' intervals too much. But if you plan to ride the 20' intervals say at tempo-ish power (83-88%) then you probably could pull off the 2' intervals at the end. I wouldn't say either workout is "better", but it's just important to keep in mind what is realistically possible. 60-90 minute interval workouts generally leave you wiped out at the end if you did it right so when deciding what intervals to do, you have to allocate how much energy you want to use up for each interval. It's nice to say that you will shoot for 2x20' at 100% threshold power and then do 3x5' at VO2 max power to finish it off...but realistically it's not possible. But if you did the 2x20' at 85-90% then you can do some interval stuff afterward. E.g., the following is a sweet spot workout with some short 30" intervals at the end. This one was right before a test week and it's apparent based on the intervals that I needed a bump in CP to make the workout a bit more challenging! |
2014-08-23 12:41 PM in reply to: Donto |
Master 10208 Northern IL | Subject: RE: Above Threshold Training. Why do it? As always, it's what you want to get out of a session. When multiple aspects are pushed in the same session it's quite likely no one aspect will be maxed out before exhaustion sets in. Doing a set with 2 x 20' up in the high 90's and then some couple minute intervals up in Z5 is possible, but does take some training to be able to pull off. And no part of it feels "pleasant". |
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