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2015-01-02 7:15 AM
in reply to: ttuna

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Originally posted by ttuna

ambien...


Stop using drugs people, there are side effects to all drugs! Ambien is bad stuff!

I get the waking up and not being able to sleep once in a while, just keep going on your same schedule you will start sleeping through the night. For me the issue is usually stress. Don't know what your issue is, but figure it out.



2015-01-02 7:57 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by ttuna ambien...
Stop using drugs people, there are side effects to all drugs! Ambien is bad stuff! I get the waking up and not being able to sleep once in a while, just keep going on your same schedule you will start sleeping through the night. For me the issue is usually stress. Don't know what your issue is, but figure it out.

Ambien doesn't seem to work well for me so I'm not defending it however nobody has supplied anything of substance regarding why Ambien is so bad...I'll agree that the less drugs we're on the better however that's almost being idealistic as there are definitely health issues for some people that require medication.

All I seem to find when looking online is the "ambien zombie" stuff which honestly seems like anomalies....I know a handful of people who use it (including myself for over a year) and not one has ever experienced anything remotely close to the zombie stuff...

I have 100% trust in my Dr. who says Ambien has no documented long term health benefits so until I know more about impacts on my health I'm not worried about that angle.  

I agree with the posts that there must be an underlying issue to sleep problems however it's not so simple as to just keep plugging away at trying to sleep and eventually outworking it.  We all need sleep and rest and if it's not happening eventually the wheels come off...

 

2015-01-02 8:21 AM
in reply to: TriMike

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
"AMBIEN may cause serious side effects, including:
? getting out of bed while not being fully awake and do an activity that you do not know you are doing. See “What is the most important information I should know about AMBIEN?”
? abnormal thoughts and behavior. Symptoms include more outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal, confusion, agitation, hallucinations,more outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal, confusion, agitation, hallucinations, worsening of depression, and suicidal
thoughts or actions.
? memory loss
? anxiety
? severe allergic reactions. Symptoms include swelling of the tongue or throat, and trouble breathing. Get emergency medical help if you get these symptoms after taking AMBIEN."

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm085906.pdf


This is just the well documented issues that the FDA knows about, there are always more.

People turn to drugs way too soon. A basic body function is sleeping, when you are tired enough you will fall asleep. You should of coarse figure out why you are not sleeping well and take care of the root cause.


2015-01-02 8:47 AM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

Originally posted by mike761 "AMBIEN may cause serious side effects, including: ? getting out of bed while not being fully awake and do an activity that you do not know you are doing. See “What is the most important information I should know about AMBIEN?” ? abnormal thoughts and behavior. Symptoms include more outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal, confusion, agitation, hallucinations,more outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal, confusion, agitation, hallucinations, worsening of depression, and suicidal thoughts or actions. ? memory loss ? anxiety ? severe allergic reactions. Symptoms include swelling of the tongue or throat, and trouble breathing. Get emergency medical help if you get these symptoms after taking AMBIEN." http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm085906.pdfThis is just the well documented issues that the FDA knows about, there are always more. People turn to drugs way too soon. A basic body function is sleeping, when you are tired enough you will fall asleep. You should of coarse figure out why you are not sleeping well and take care of the root cause.

 

I've seen this list... I think the difference for me when discussing serious side effects is I think about heart damage, organ damage etc., vs. psychological issues... 

Not discounting the psychological stuff, however if a person doesn't have those issues within the first few weeks of use, it's probably not likely they will develop unless the medication is abused or not taken as directed...

As for the basic body function of sleep, you're oversimplifying.... Definitely agree that eventually sleep will come, the problem for many though is the sleep isn't good quality, or good quality long enough etc... 

If you've personally experienced sleep issues that go beyond occasional insomnia etc., and especially if you use a CPAP I'd love some advice on how to fix the underlying issues... I'm at my wits end....

 

2015-01-02 1:11 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by mike761 "AMBIEN may cause serious side effects, including: ? getting out of bed while not being fully awake and do an activity that you do not know you are doing. See “What is the most important information I should know about AMBIEN?” ? abnormal thoughts and behavior. Symptoms include more outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal, confusion, agitation, hallucinations,more outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal, confusion, agitation, hallucinations, worsening of depression, and suicidal thoughts or actions. ? memory loss ? anxiety ? severe allergic reactions. Symptoms include swelling of the tongue or throat, and trouble breathing. Get emergency medical help if you get these symptoms after taking AMBIEN." http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm085906.pdfThis is just the well documented issues that the FDA knows about, there are always more. People turn to drugs way too soon. A basic body function is sleeping, when you are tired enough you will fall asleep. You should of coarse figure out why you are not sleeping well and take care of the root cause.

 

I've seen this list... I think the difference for me when discussing serious side effects is I think about heart damage, organ damage etc., vs. psychological issues... 

Not discounting the psychological stuff, however if a person doesn't have those issues within the first few weeks of use, it's probably not likely they will develop unless the medication is abused or not taken as directed...

As for the basic body function of sleep, you're oversimplifying.... Definitely agree that eventually sleep will come, the problem for many though is the sleep isn't good quality, or good quality long enough etc... 

If you've personally experienced sleep issues that go beyond occasional insomnia etc., and especially if you use a CPAP I'd love some advice on how to fix the underlying issues... I'm at my wits end....

 




Not trying to say there is never a case for the use of drugs, I just don't believe people(and Dr's) should be jumping to use them so quickly. Ambien is suppose to be a short term solution only (1 to 2 months from what I read) The studies were done for short term, so if it is used long term what are the side effect to the organs? I don't really know if that is known.

No I do not use a CPAP.

I did use Ambien back in 2007 for 2 nights only, had some adverse reactions that were not listed above so I never took it again.

For me It's things I am thinking about before I go to bed that cause the problems, so I try to put my mind on good thoughts before bedtime. Lots of options to try: changes in diet, exercise times, stimulation in the evening(tv, video games, reading, etc...), eating times, alcohol, any combination of these things.

Edited by mike761 2015-01-02 1:12 PM
2015-01-02 1:42 PM
in reply to: mike761

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

Originally posted by mike761
Originally posted by TriMike

Originally posted by mike761 "AMBIEN may cause serious side effects, including: ? getting out of bed while not being fully awake and do an activity that you do not know you are doing. See “What is the most important information I should know about AMBIEN?” ? abnormal thoughts and behavior. Symptoms include more outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal, confusion, agitation, hallucinations,more outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal, confusion, agitation, hallucinations, worsening of depression, and suicidal thoughts or actions. ? memory loss ? anxiety ? severe allergic reactions. Symptoms include swelling of the tongue or throat, and trouble breathing. Get emergency medical help if you get these symptoms after taking AMBIEN." http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/DrugSafety/ucm085906.pdfThis is just the well documented issues that the FDA knows about, there are always more. People turn to drugs way too soon. A basic body function is sleeping, when you are tired enough you will fall asleep. You should of coarse figure out why you are not sleeping well and take care of the root cause.

 

I've seen this list... I think the difference for me when discussing serious side effects is I think about heart damage, organ damage etc., vs. psychological issues... 

Not discounting the psychological stuff, however if a person doesn't have those issues within the first few weeks of use, it's probably not likely they will develop unless the medication is abused or not taken as directed...

As for the basic body function of sleep, you're oversimplifying.... Definitely agree that eventually sleep will come, the problem for many though is the sleep isn't good quality, or good quality long enough etc... 

If you've personally experienced sleep issues that go beyond occasional insomnia etc., and especially if you use a CPAP I'd love some advice on how to fix the underlying issues... I'm at my wits end....

 

Not trying to say there is never a case for the use of drugs, I just don't believe people(and Dr's) should be jumping to use them so quickly. Ambien is suppose to be a short term solution only (1 to 2 months from what I read) The studies were done for short term, so if it is used long term what are the side effect to the organs? I don't really know if that is known. No I do not use a CPAP. I did use Ambien back in 2007 for 2 nights only, had some adverse reactions that were not listed above so I never took it again. For me It's things I am thinking about before I go to bed that cause the problems, so I try to put my mind on good thoughts before bedtime. Lots of options to try: changes in diet, exercise times, stimulation in the evening(tv, video games, reading, etc...), eating times, alcohol, any combination of these things.

We didn't arrive at Ambien quickly, it was after trying to sleep with the CPAP for months and then discussions about how my poor sleep patterns have been going on for year.s... You bring up a good point regarding studies and short term vs. long term use.  My Dr. said his experience is a mixed bag, some patients it's short term, others it's occasional but it goes on over years and others daily long term... 

Changes in my diet, exercise times, stimulation in the evenings, video games reading etc., would be change for the sake of change.  For example I eat very healthy, no red meat, nothing fried, little sugar, whole grains/oats, lean meat & fish, 4-5 servings daily of fruit, 2-3 veggies and I don't eat within two hours of sleeping.  I also rarely exercise within two hours of sleeping however it can occasionally happen.  I don't play video games ever, I do read in bed and usually it does what it does to many, that being I get sleepy and then when I decide to go lights out, hook up the CPAP I'm wide awake.

I do tend to have a craft beer within 20-30 minutes of bed as I thought that would help relax me....I work with a bunch of Pharmacists and I asked about the "do not take with alcohol" thing and they laughed saying that's the best way to take the meds...  There was some kidding and some seriousness to their answer however the question I'm now wondering is if the alcohol for some people (me) dilutes or weakens the medication...

I believe most of the issues with sleep for me are in my head, relaxing etc., and one thing that definitely contributes to the anxiety is knowing I've got 10mg of Ambien in my system and I'm wide awake.... If alcohol weakens the impact for some people, that may be me..... 

 

 

 



2015-01-02 1:52 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Originally posted by mike761

Not trying to say there is never a case for the use of drugs, I just don't believe people(and Dr's) should be jumping to use them so quickly. Ambien is suppose to be a short term solution only (1 to 2 months from what I read)


I agree with this 100%.

Prescription drugs have become such a big business ... all you have to do is watch an NFL football game and you are inundated with one drug commercial after another. And they always end with ... "and ask your doctor about (insert drug here). It is really disturbing. Direct to Consumer advertising of prescription drugs in the U.S. really needs to stopped.

It just seems that our society would much rather take a pill for just about anything then working on modifying behaviors to achieve the desired result, and unfortunately our medical professionals seem more than happy to oblige. Easier for them, and they are giving the patient what they want, even if it is not the healthiest option long term.

There is a reason that the U.S. has the highest prescription drug use on the planet, and I think you only have to follow the money to know why.

It saddens me that on a website devoted to fitness, so many individuals are so quick to advise taking prescription drugs to solve an issue that can be remedied in ways that are far less harmful, but may take a lot more effort.

Edited by rventuri 2015-01-02 1:57 PM
2015-01-03 12:20 PM
in reply to: Justin86

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
Originally posted by Justin86

I would stay away from any sleeping pill especially Ambien.  Even melatonin.

Find the underlying issue - there is one.

But that doesn't help in the mean time.  I will tell you what has worked for me.  I have had chronic sleep issues for 10+ years.  I have no troubles falling asleep but staying asleep is an issue for me here is what I do (I know that you mentioned some of these but I'm just making my list);

- No caffeine after 1400
- No television / computer / phone / tablet in the bedroom
- I wear a dental appliance for mild sleep apnea (not a CPAP)
- If I wake up and cannot fall back o sleep I get out of bed and do something quiet (such as reading) for about 10/15 minutes
- Keep it cool in the room, while it's nice to be cozy warm you sleep better in cooler temperatures
- I have a routine that I do before I go to bed that I do every night.
 
I generally have lights out at 2230 and get up at 0500
 
I still wake up, but I have noticed improvement in the quality of my sleep.
 
 

 



This list is a good representation of the advice I got before I even posted the question. Let me address them now:

-No caffeine after 1400: NO CAFFEINE EVER FOR ME.

- No television / computer / phone / tablet in the bedroom: NEVER HAD ANY EXCEPT A PHONE, A LANDLINE ONLY.

- I wear a dental appliance for mild sleep apnea (not a CPAP): NOT AN ISSUE FOR ME.

- If I wake up and cannot fall back o sleep I get out of bed and do something quiet (such as reading) for about 10/15 minutes: MY BODY REACTS DIFFERENTLY. if I GET UP IT IS 2 HOURS MINIMUM.

- Keep it cool in the room, while it's nice to be cozy warm you sleep better in cooler temperatures: AGREE AND DO THIS ALWAYS WHEN THE WEATHER ALLOWS.

- I have a routine that I do before I go to bed that I do every night.: I CERTAINLY TRY AND DO IT ENOUGH THAT I CAN SAY IT HAS LITTLE IMPACT ON THE PROBLEM.

So here is my update. I am taking 3mg of OTC Melatonin about 30 minutes before I go to bed. I do fall asleep fairly quickly but that is not new. I am still waking in the night but I do seem to be getting back to sleep fairly quickly. Right now just a few days a week I get up on time but my body clock seems to be adjusting, albeit slowly.

Hopefully in another week or two I will have the routine down. Then I will back off the Melatonin either by dose amount or frequency and see what happens.

Thanks again for the lively discussion.
2015-01-03 6:32 PM
in reply to: 0


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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep

. A basic body function is sleeping, when you are tired enough you will fall asleep. You should of coarse figure out why you are not sleeping well and take care of the root cause.

While I for the most part agree, and also doubly agree that people in the US definitely turn to drugs way too quickly, there are real organic sleep disruptions that happen as you get older that for some (like myself) make sleeping to rested not an easy or 'basic' body function. 

 

I've had several sleep studies and sleep consultations, already on a CPAP (which definitely helps, but doesn't solve everything), I have extremely good sleep habits thanks to a 4 year old who goes to bed like clockwork at 8:30PM so I'm in bed like clockwork by 9PM almost every day, and I don't have any major stressors that I'm losing sleep over. BMI is totally excellent and I'm on no meds and have no medical conditions. Even with this clean bill of health, it's rare for me to sleep more than 4 hours at a time, and it's almost impossible for me to go back to sleep the moment I wake up, despite being too tired and groggy when I awaken early to do anything constructively. It's a huge waste of time that I absorb into my schedule as a cost, and it's often THE biggest limiter to my training (or life in general). 

 

I still haven't taken any medications like Ambien, but I could easily see how others with my biology and worse factors (weight, medical conditions, stress) would need sleep medications to actually get half-decent rest. Contrary to what you say, for a minority of folks like myself, sleep is NOT just a matter of tired -> sleep -> rested. My sleep doc agrees with me that there's nothing else I can do at this point short of meds to further improve my sleeping.



Edited by yazmaster 2015-01-03 6:33 PM
2015-01-09 12:11 PM
in reply to: TJHammer

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Dulles , Virginia
Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
You're welcome, thanks for the support! I've been trying to push ZMA to my fellow athletes for quite some time. I dig it because it is natural!
2015-01-10 12:42 AM
in reply to: Stuartap


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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
If you're considering drugs you should have some THC.

Otherwise Chinese medicine would indicate there's some issues with the Liver. Consistent waking time is a key indicator.

http://www.holisticbynature.com.au/2014/04/why-you-wake-up-at-the-s...


2015-01-10 7:49 AM
in reply to: 808

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Subject: RE: Not getting enough sleep
This is a subject near to my heart.
I have suffered from increasingly bad sleep since last August. I wake up multiple times in the night, sometimes take 2 hours to go back to sleep, sometimes don't go back to sleep at all after 1-3 am.
Up to 10 months ago I owned, operated, & was in the process of selling a small business in a very stressful field. I understood my bad sleep then. When the business was gone, I had a period of pretty good sleep (7 hours, even 8!), but then my sleep started getting worse & worse.
I have pretty good sleep hygiene: lights out at the same time (9:00) every night; no electronics after 7:30. I have given up caffeine completely except for 3 cups of decaf in the morning; very healthy diet, no sugar or alcohol; workouts in the morning or early afternoon. I had a sleep study to rule out apnea. (The silver lining to my struggles: I became hyper-aware of my husband's snoring and suggested HE have a sleep study. Turns out he has severe apnea which has been adversely effecting his health for years. Now he uses a CPAP and it has made worlds of difference for him.)
I use earplugs to muffle his CPAP and a sleep mask if he is reading on his Kindle.
I read that meditation can help you sleep, so I do Tai Chi, a meditation in motion, 5 days a week. I read that journaling helps by alleviating stress, so now I journal before bed and it helps. I read that getting out of bed & doing some yoga poses can help; I try this sometimes, but mostly it makes me aware of how stiff I am.
Things that help: I take melatonin. That is a substance your body produces, but as you age you make less of it. I found that the drug-store variety, including timed release, work less well than "Rem Caps" from Hammer Nutrition, which also include valerian root.. At my doctor's suggestion, I increased the melatonin dosage to 10.5 mg. I take half of that an hour before bed, and the rest at one of my wake-ups, usually about 11:00.
Sometimes I take Ambien. If it worked well I'd take it all the time, but at best it gives me 1 1/2 to 2 hours of sleep, and the more often I take it the less effect it has. I take it occasionally after several nights in a row of 4 to 5 hours sleep, usually at 2 or 3 in the morning. It doesn't stop me from waking up at 4 or 4:30 and does leave me feeling groggy for awhile.
I also drink a small cup of Sleepytime (camomile) tea while reading right before going to sleep. At my 2-3 am wake-up, I have another cup of Sleepytime and read some more. (My bedtime book has to be neither depressing nor exciting, just mildly interesting.)
I tried using a sleep tracker (Basis Peak, supposed to be the best) to get a handle on whether I was getting enough REM and deep sleep. Unfortunately, it couldn't distinguish between sleeping and lying in bed trying to sleep, or between REM and reading, so I sent it back. If you're considering one of these, don't bother.
I got on a waiting list to see a mental health worker to try to unearth any hidden psychological issues behind this. I have a follow-up appointment with my doctor this week. Right now, if he could prescribe a pill that would knock me out, I'd take it.
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