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2015-04-15 4:56 PM
in reply to: Climbinggonzo

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by Climbinggonzo I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally?

they've had a stronger lobby than the LGBT community has.



2015-04-15 9:30 PM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by Climbinggonzo I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally?
Simple. Because religion is not a choice. If you believe that Jesus is your lord and savoir and he is the ONLY way then do you have a choice? Not really. Just like a lot of people feel called when they convert.

Yes you do.  While I believe that people do feel 'called' when they convert It is indeed a choice.  If they never would have heard about Jesus they would not know any different.  No matter where I am, or what I would have been exposed to I would have known that I was different. 

2015-04-16 10:01 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by Climbinggonzo I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally?
Simple. Because religion is not a choice. If you believe that Jesus is your lord and savoir and he is the ONLY way then do you have a choice? Not really. Just like a lot of people feel called when they convert.

 

If you believe that a same sex partner is the only partner for you and that is the ONLY way then do you have a choice? Not really.

2015-04-16 11:47 AM
in reply to: mrbbrad

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate
Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by Climbinggonzo I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally?
Simple. Because religion is not a choice. If you believe that Jesus is your lord and savoir and he is the ONLY way then do you have a choice? Not really. Just like a lot of people feel called when they convert.

 

If you believe that a same sex partner is the only partner for you and that is the ONLY way then do you have a choice? Not really.




I did not saying being gay is a choice. Just I can understand how people can claim religion is not a choice. Just ask my mom knowing the world is 6000 years old is not a choice its biblical and therefor never wrong. This is why she did not like my gift of deep ancestry from national geographic for Christmas.
2015-04-16 3:04 PM
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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by mrbbrad

Originally posted by chirunner134
Originally posted by Climbinggonzo I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally?
Simple. Because religion is not a choice. If you believe that Jesus is your lord and savoir and he is the ONLY way then do you have a choice? Not really. Just like a lot of people feel called when they convert.

 

If you believe that a same sex partner is the only partner for you and that is the ONLY way then do you have a choice? Not really.

I did not saying being gay is a choice. Just I can understand how people can claim religion is not a choice. Just ask my mom knowing the world is 6000 years old is not a choice its biblical and therefor never wrong. This is why she did not like my gift of deep ancestry from national geographic for Christmas.

I was raised Catholic......then some priests decided it would be a good idea to molest children and the church tried to cover it up.....then I decided not to be Catholic.  Easy choice.



Edited by Left Brain 2015-04-16 3:05 PM
2015-04-16 3:43 PM
in reply to: Justin86

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by Justin86

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided.

I respectfully disagree.  There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them.  For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages.

Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality.  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject.

http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/


http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2013/01/ten_non-religious_reasons_to_keep_marriage_traditional.html

Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether.  Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights.  Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government.  I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual.  bam, lets all sing kumbaya.  

you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks!

No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people.  I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word.  

I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin.  However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad.

I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex with relatives, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex before marriage, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having extramarital affairs, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people to have homosexual relations, but I'm not going to make it illegal.

I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair.  I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever...  we have to stop it at all costs...  yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married.  According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship.  This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play.  Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!!  lol

Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period.  We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God.  To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.  You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin.  That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do.  Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them.  Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one.
This story is absolutely no different for somebody who looks at porn, has affairs, or is sleeping with their fiance' before they're married.

Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says.  This is not up for debate.  If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart.

Why does the Bible point out sin?  The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life.  If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life.  Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things.  Affairs don't often end well.  Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions.  Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life.

My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college.  He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party.

Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics.

Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin?  Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone?

It just cannot be right.

And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts.

This is exactly what troubles me most and what caused me to lose any faith that I may have had.  I could go into a cry me a river story about growing up but I won't I had it much easier than most people.

Sitting there the few times I was in church when the pastor and people condemned being gay.  Sitting there feeling awful, because I was feeling those 'unnatural urges'.  Unless you lived it you have no idea what kind of damage that can do to a child.  Ever wonder why suicide rates are up amongst LGBT+ youth?  Then my extremely conservative and religious extended family bashing gays any time they could, yet them committing many sins themselves?

If there is a god, and he is 'testing my faith' as some would claim I would want nothing to do with that god.  I would view that god as a cruel unloving god, not a compassionate one.  Making people grow up hating themselves, confused and angry at the world.  Why would any compassionate god do that?

I only just now noticed this thread and have now read through it all. 

You did a really nice job of summing up now I feel. 

In my life, of all of the people I have encountered, the people who have been the most terrible to me have identified as Christians. 



2015-04-17 12:06 AM
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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by Justin86

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided.

I respectfully disagree.  There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them.  For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages.

Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality.  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject.

http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/


http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2013/01/ten_non-religious_reasons_to_keep_marriage_traditional.html

Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether.  Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights.  Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government.  I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual.  bam, lets all sing kumbaya.  

you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks!

No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people.  I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word.  

I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin.  However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad.

I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex with relatives, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex before marriage, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having extramarital affairs, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people to have homosexual relations, but I'm not going to make it illegal.

I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair.  I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever...  we have to stop it at all costs...  yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married.  According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship.  This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play.  Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!!  lol

Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period.  We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God.  To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.  You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin.  That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do.  Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them.  Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one.
This story is absolutely no different for somebody who looks at porn, has affairs, or is sleeping with their fiance' before they're married.

Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says.  This is not up for debate.  If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart.

Why does the Bible point out sin?  The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life.  If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life.  Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things.  Affairs don't often end well.  Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions.  Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life.

My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college.  He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party.

Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics.

Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin?  Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone?

It just cannot be right.

And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts.

This is exactly what troubles me most and what caused me to lose any faith that I may have had.  I could go into a cry me a river story about growing up but I won't I had it much easier than most people.

Sitting there the few times I was in church when the pastor and people condemned being gay.  Sitting there feeling awful, because I was feeling those 'unnatural urges'.  Unless you lived it you have no idea what kind of damage that can do to a child.  Ever wonder why suicide rates are up amongst LGBT+ youth?  Then my extremely conservative and religious extended family bashing gays any time they could, yet them committing many sins themselves?

If there is a god, and he is 'testing my faith' as some would claim I would want nothing to do with that god.  I would view that god as a cruel unloving god, not a compassionate one.  Making people grow up hating themselves, confused and angry at the world.  Why would any compassionate god do that?

I only just now noticed this thread and have now read through it all. 

You did a really nice job of summing up now I feel. 

In my life, of all of the people I have encountered, the people who have been the most terrible to me have identified as Christians. 

Justin and Salty - I was, in fact, already headed down the road to acceptance of LGBT folks before I ever came to BT.....but I figure you both should know that you have helped to make me positive I made the right turn.  I'm REALLY glad you post here on these issues. Thanks!

One day we'll end up at the same race and I'll buy you a beer.



Edited by Left Brain 2015-04-17 12:07 AM
2015-04-17 1:49 AM
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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Awesome post LB. I'm so glad that there are more and more "on the fence" people that are finally shifting towards actually treating the LGBT community like decent human beings. I was never really exposed to it much as a kid, so on the rare occasion that it came up, I naturally would have that "ew that's weird" reaction until I learned more about the gay community and the bull crap that they have to put up with. I now love and support my gay and lesbian friends more than ever, and think that they deserve to be treated like they are- good people. A lot of hard core anti-gays will just continue on refusing to budge. Shouting at them that they're stupid for believing what they believe will only make them stick to their guns more, but luckily more and more middle ground people are becoming accepting and supportive.

Anybody get a load of that DieselTec mechanic in Michigan that was gay bashing and furiously stated that he would refuse service to gays? I almost blew a gasket just trying to understand and still retain some respect for people like that. He's gotten a lot of national attention, and people are having a field day with the yelp reviews for his company   http://www.yelp.com/biz/dieseltec-grandville



Edited by trijamie 2015-04-17 1:51 AM
2015-04-17 12:40 PM
in reply to: Climbinggonzo

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by Climbinggonzo I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally?

I'm a strong Christian and I don't in any way believe that same sex attraction is a choice. I would say that most people in my very large church feel the same way. The Christians who take the stand that gay people just simply choose to be gay and therefore have to just "stop being gay" is flawed.

Engaging in same sex relationships is absolutely no different than engaging in a premarital hetero relationship or even looking at another woman (or man) lustfully.  The simple fact is, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.  When we become a Christian through faith in Jesus Christ we start feeling conviction from the Holy Spirit about the sin in our lives.  Over time, our sinful desires start to change to the point that eventually we sin far less and try to be more Christlike in our daily lives.  I sin every day and the Pastor of my church sins every day, but we strive to not do it.
We encourage unmarried couples to not live together, we encourage people not to get drunk, we encourage people not to gamble, we encourage people to not be in same sex relationships, but every one of those people can still be Christians, have faith in Jesus, and strive to be more Christ like.  The important thing is everyone, no matter what their sin is welcome in our church because that's a picture of who Jesus was.  Any church that turns away "sinners" or more importantly turns away people who are guilty of "this sin" or "that sin" is not a church that's following the Bible in my humble opinion.

I also say that being a Christian is a choice.  I have the free will choice to follow Jesus, or I have the free will choice to turn my back to him and spend eternity separated from God.  There's no compulsion and I most certainly wasn't "born this way".  If anything I was born separated from God and I made a choice to engage in a relationship with him.

Remember, the original constitution protects religion by allowing people to choose whatever religion they want and the state not being able to form a "state religion".  Throughout history various Theocracies or "state religions" have oppressed people and our founding fathers wanted people to have the freedom to worship whomever they wanted (or didn't want to).  These protection protect everyone including Atheists because if we mandated Christian beliefs on our citizens, for example, it would be oppressing Atheist, Muslim, Hindu, etc. beliefs.  So, we all need the constitutional religious protections.

2015-04-17 1:16 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by Justin86

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided.

I respectfully disagree.  There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them.  For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages.

Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality.  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject.

http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/


http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2013/01/ten_non-religious_reasons_to_keep_marriage_traditional.html

Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether.  Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights.  Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government.  I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual.  bam, lets all sing kumbaya.  

you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks!

No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people.  I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word.  

I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin.  However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad.

I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex with relatives, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex before marriage, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having extramarital affairs, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people to have homosexual relations, but I'm not going to make it illegal.

I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair.  I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever...  we have to stop it at all costs...  yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married.  According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship.  This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play.  Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!!  lol

Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period.  We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God.  To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.  You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin.  That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do.  Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them.  Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one.
This story is absolutely no different for somebody who looks at porn, has affairs, or is sleeping with their fiance' before they're married.

Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says.  This is not up for debate.  If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart.

Why does the Bible point out sin?  The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life.  If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life.  Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things.  Affairs don't often end well.  Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions.  Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life.

My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college.  He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party.

Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics.

Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin?  Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone?

It just cannot be right.

And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts.

This is exactly what troubles me most and what caused me to lose any faith that I may have had.  I could go into a cry me a river story about growing up but I won't I had it much easier than most people.

Sitting there the few times I was in church when the pastor and people condemned being gay.  Sitting there feeling awful, because I was feeling those 'unnatural urges'.  Unless you lived it you have no idea what kind of damage that can do to a child.  Ever wonder why suicide rates are up amongst LGBT+ youth?  Then my extremely conservative and religious extended family bashing gays any time they could, yet them committing many sins themselves?

If there is a god, and he is 'testing my faith' as some would claim I would want nothing to do with that god.  I would view that god as a cruel unloving god, not a compassionate one.  Making people grow up hating themselves, confused and angry at the world.  Why would any compassionate god do that?

I only just now noticed this thread and have now read through it all. 

You did a really nice job of summing up now I feel. 

In my life, of all of the people I have encountered, the people who have been the most terrible to me have identified as Christians. 

Justin and Salty - I was, in fact, already headed down the road to acceptance of LGBT folks before I ever came to BT.....but I figure you both should know that you have helped to make me positive I made the right turn.  I'm REALLY glad you post here on these issues. Thanks!

One day we'll end up at the same race and I'll buy you a beer.

Appreciate you saying that, LB. I would also appreciate that beer  

I remember a while back you asking why "we" feel the need to speak up about this topic, why something that is just a small part of who we are as a whole needs to be on the headlines of magazines etc. (I believe you were talking about Robin Roberts at the time.)

And for now, I believe part of it is for people like you. People who may be on the fence but don't really know the personal stories. It's so easy to generalize from afar but time and time again I am reminded that we are all people with stories, and we tend to be a lot more similar than we give credit. And if we don't share some of those stories, it's really challenging to understand. Or even try to. Not sure if that makes sense. 

2015-04-17 1:20 PM
in reply to: trijamie

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Seattle
Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by trijamie

Awesome post LB. I'm so glad that there are more and more "on the fence" people that are finally shifting towards actually treating the LGBT community like decent human beings. I was never really exposed to it much as a kid, so on the rare occasion that it came up, I naturally would have that "ew that's weird" reaction until I learned more about the gay community and the bull crap that they have to put up with. I now love and support my gay and lesbian friends more than ever, and think that they deserve to be treated like they are- good people. A lot of hard core anti-gays will just continue on refusing to budge. Shouting at them that they're stupid for believing what they believe will only make them stick to their guns more, but luckily more and more middle ground people are becoming accepting and supportive.

Anybody get a load of that DieselTec mechanic in Michigan that was gay bashing and furiously stated that he would refuse service to gays? I almost blew a gasket just trying to understand and still retain some respect for people like that. He's gotten a lot of national attention, and people are having a field day with the yelp reviews for his company   http://www.yelp.com/biz/dieseltec-grandville

Dun, dun chhhhh!  

Ha some of those reviews are great.

In the same vein, my uncle had bought a brand new Mustang Shelby GT350 and let me drive it. At the time I wasn't really out to the family. Down the road after finding out he said, "And I let her drive my car!?!?!?! I'm going to have to wash the seat. I'd hate to turn gay."

 



2016-04-09 6:33 AM
in reply to: #5086358


18

Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate
THANK YOU!!!! 100% correct
2016-04-09 10:08 AM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate
Originally posted by Asalzwed

"And I let her drive my car!?!?!?! I'm going to have to wash the seat. I'd hate to turn gay."

 




THIS^^^ makes me sad.

I hope at some point the uncle comes to the realization that you are still the same person he thought enough of that he spent time with you and allowed to drive his precious car. You could also tell him that you had to boil the pants you were wearing in his car; just as a precaution against your catching a case of the "dumbazz" :0

Edited by mdg2003 2016-04-09 10:08 AM
2016-04-09 1:59 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by Justin86

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided.

I respectfully disagree.  There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them.  For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages.

Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality.  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject.

http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/


http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2013/01/ten_non-religious_reasons_to_keep_marriage_traditional.html

Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether.  Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights.  Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government.  I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual.  bam, lets all sing kumbaya.  

you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks!

No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people.  I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word.  

I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin.  However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad.

I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex with relatives, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex before marriage, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having extramarital affairs, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people to have homosexual relations, but I'm not going to make it illegal.

I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair.  I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever...  we have to stop it at all costs...  yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married.  According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship.  This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play.  Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!!  lol

Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period.  We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God.  To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.  You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin.  That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do.  Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them.  Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one.
This story is absolutely no different for somebody who looks at porn, has affairs, or is sleeping with their fiance' before they're married.

Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says.  This is not up for debate.  If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart.

Why does the Bible point out sin?  The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life.  If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life.  Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things.  Affairs don't often end well.  Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions.  Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life.

My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college.  He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party.

Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics.

Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin?  Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone?

It just cannot be right.

And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts.

This is exactly what troubles me most and what caused me to lose any faith that I may have had.  I could go into a cry me a river story about growing up but I won't I had it much easier than most people.

Sitting there the few times I was in church when the pastor and people condemned being gay.  Sitting there feeling awful, because I was feeling those 'unnatural urges'.  Unless you lived it you have no idea what kind of damage that can do to a child.  Ever wonder why suicide rates are up amongst LGBT+ youth?  Then my extremely conservative and religious extended family bashing gays any time they could, yet them committing many sins themselves?

If there is a god, and he is 'testing my faith' as some would claim I would want nothing to do with that god.  I would view that god as a cruel unloving god, not a compassionate one.  Making people grow up hating themselves, confused and angry at the world.  Why would any compassionate god do that?

I only just now noticed this thread and have now read through it all. 

You did a really nice job of summing up now I feel. 

In my life, of all of the people I have encountered, the people who have been the most terrible to me have identified as Christians. 

Justin and Salty - I was, in fact, already headed down the road to acceptance of LGBT folks before I ever came to BT.....but I figure you both should know that you have helped to make me positive I made the right turn.  I'm REALLY glad you post here on these issues. Thanks!

One day we'll end up at the same race and I'll buy you a beer.

A beer sounds great! 

Someday I'll be running a Marathon in your neck of the woods. 

2016-04-09 2:04 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Climbinggonzo I heard a very interesting viewpoint on the original post of this thread the other day, I'm curious what others think of it. Essentially it was saying that the religious conservatives view homosexuality as a choice, therefore it is not deserving of any legal protection and/or special considerations. However, isn't religion a choice? Don't we all joke about the door to door Mormons trying to convince people to change their religion? To choose to follow a different religion? Or to choose to have a religion at all, for those who don't believe? So why is religion covered, protected and given special consideration legally?

I'm a strong Christian and I don't in any way believe that same sex attraction is a choice. I would say that most people in my very large church feel the same way. The Christians who take the stand that gay people just simply choose to be gay and therefore have to just "stop being gay" is flawed.

Engaging in same sex relationships is absolutely no different than engaging in a premarital hetero relationship or even looking at another woman (or man) lustfully.  The simple fact is, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God.  When we become a Christian through faith in Jesus Christ we start feeling conviction from the Holy Spirit about the sin in our lives.  Over time, our sinful desires start to change to the point that eventually we sin far less and try to be more Christlike in our daily lives.  I sin every day and the Pastor of my church sins every day, but we strive to not do it.
We encourage unmarried couples to not live together, we encourage people not to get drunk, we encourage people not to gamble, we encourage people to not be in same sex relationships, but every one of those people can still be Christians, have faith in Jesus, and strive to be more Christ like.  The important thing is everyone, no matter what their sin is welcome in our church because that's a picture of who Jesus was.  Any church that turns away "sinners" or more importantly turns away people who are guilty of "this sin" or "that sin" is not a church that's following the Bible in my humble opinion.

I also say that being a Christian is a choice.  I have the free will choice to follow Jesus, or I have the free will choice to turn my back to him and spend eternity separated from God.  There's no compulsion and I most certainly wasn't "born this way".  If anything I was born separated from God and I made a choice to engage in a relationship with him.

Remember, the original constitution protects religion by allowing people to choose whatever religion they want and the state not being able to form a "state religion".  Throughout history various Theocracies or "state religions" have oppressed people and our founding fathers wanted people to have the freedom to worship whomever they wanted (or didn't want to).  These protection protect everyone including Atheists because if we mandated Christian beliefs on our citizens, for example, it would be oppressing Atheist, Muslim, Hindu, etc. beliefs.  So, we all need the constitutional religious protections.

While I disagree with the foundations of your beliefs, I respect you for having them.  From everything that you have posted on this form you seem like a great person and a great believer in your faith.  I also don't see you as hypocritical, like I do many Christians.  Some of the ones I know will gay bash one minute then go have children out of wedlock on the other.  You can't pick and choose which you think is sin, and I hardly think you do.

 

2016-04-09 2:12 PM
in reply to: Justin86

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by Justin86

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by Asalzwed

Originally posted by Justin86

Originally posted by Dan-L

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by SGirl The debate over homosexuality, only stems from religion. Take religion out of the equation, and I'd find it hard to believe that anyone would give much thought to it. Let alone ''debate'' it. But, when people think they are standing up for their religion, and their religious ''rights,'' then...it opens a pandora's box. Nothing wrong with having faith, or even being a religious person, but to tell others what to do based off of your own religious beliefs, is misguided.

I respectfully disagree.  There's no question that the religious community is very vocal in opposition to homosexuality because it's counter to their religious beliefs and religious folks often feel it's being forced upon them.  For example a Christian church being forced to conduct same sex marriages.

Here are a few articles discussing some secular arguments against homosexuality.  I'm not saying I agree or disagree with them, I'm just pointing out that there are debate points outside of religion on the subject.

http://secularright.org/SR/wordpress/a-secular-case-against-gay-marriage/


http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2013/01/ten_non-religious_reasons_to_keep_marriage_traditional.html

Personally, I feel that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether.  Let people do commitment ceremonies, church marriages, or whatever they want and then give them the ability to file a civil union with the government to gain all the same legal rights.  Gender doesn't even need to come into the discussion with the government.  I think the civil union law should be along the lines of forming a union with any single non-related individual.  bam, lets all sing kumbaya.  

you opened my eyes here to this. I shouldn't have posted the word 'only' when it comes to religion. lol I meant 'mainly.' I still think that religion plays a huge part, at least in the united states, as to how homosexuality is viewed from a political view, but I appreciate you enlightening me here with this info. thanks!

No worries and I do agree with you that religion does play a major role for many people.  I also knew what you meant, but keyed on the "only" word.  

I'm a little bit interesting myself because I am a strong Christian believer and do believe that homosexuality is a sin.  However, I also believe that extramarital affairs, sex with a close relation, sex before marriage, and looking at another woman with lust are all equally as bad.

I don't want people oogling women with lust, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex with relatives, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having sex before marriage, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people having extramarital affairs, but I'm not going to make it illegal.
I don't want people to have homosexual relations, but I'm not going to make it illegal.

I have personally done a few of these, and I will tell you any Christian who tells you he hasn't is a lair.  I have fought very hard to change the perspective of homosexuality in the church because people of faith often single it out as this "horrible thing" that's just the worst sin ever...  we have to stop it at all costs...  yet, these same people are living (and having sex) with their girlfriend before they're married.  According to the Bible, their sin is no different than having a homosexual relationship.  This is where I feel the "it's icky" mentality comes into play.  Hey, I can relate to the guy looking at that hot blonde over there, so I guess his sin isn't that bad, but OMG, that guy is holding another guys hand... GET HIM!!!  lol

Christianity is a faith that is based on love and affection towards all people period.  We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God.  To be a Christian, you simply ask for forgiveness of your sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.  You are then "born again" as a new creation with a desire to not sin.  That doesn't mean you won't sin, it means you don't want to sin and feel convicted when you do.  Similar to the story I told above about my friend, he continued to sin with homosexual relationships for a while, but felt convicted over time to the point that he stopped partaking in them.  Over more time and counseling he began to grow an attraction towards women and ultimately married one.
This story is absolutely no different for somebody who looks at porn, has affairs, or is sleeping with their fiance' before they're married.

Any Christian church that looks down upon homosexuals or treats them different in any way is not a church that is following what the Bible says.  This is not up for debate.  If somebody becomes a Christian, but continues to live in sin without any conviction or willingness to change then I would dare say that they aren't really a Christian because there is no conviction in their heart.

Why does the Bible point out sin?  The Bible is in it's simplest form an owners manual on how to live a good life.  If you truly follow the teachings of Jesus, I will dare say that it is going to be very difficult for you to have a troubled life.  Alternatively, when you live outside of "the manual" you open yourself up to a lot of bad things.  Affairs don't often end well.  Sex before marriage can cause unwanted pregnancies, STD's, abortions.  Even with homosexual relationships it's far easier today than ever in the history of mankind, but it's still not an easy life.

My heart is really heavy right now because I just found out a very close family member caught a lifelong STD at college.  He went to church his whole life, made a commitment to stay pure until he got married, but decided to be like everyone else and hook up with a girl at a party.

Sorry for the long post, but this topic as a whole is very personal to me and I have dedicated a large portion of my life to studying, understanding, and ultimately helping people with all kinds of relationship and sexual topics.

Have you ever thought to challenge why any compassionate, loving God would consider homosexuality a sin?  Because surely any God would want people to be in a relationship with someone they loved and someone who loved them rather than to spend their lives alone?

It just cannot be right.

And it just doesn't sit with the other 'sins' you mention which all involve taking risks with people hearts.

This is exactly what troubles me most and what caused me to lose any faith that I may have had.  I could go into a cry me a river story about growing up but I won't I had it much easier than most people.

Sitting there the few times I was in church when the pastor and people condemned being gay.  Sitting there feeling awful, because I was feeling those 'unnatural urges'.  Unless you lived it you have no idea what kind of damage that can do to a child.  Ever wonder why suicide rates are up amongst LGBT+ youth?  Then my extremely conservative and religious extended family bashing gays any time they could, yet them committing many sins themselves?

If there is a god, and he is 'testing my faith' as some would claim I would want nothing to do with that god.  I would view that god as a cruel unloving god, not a compassionate one.  Making people grow up hating themselves, confused and angry at the world.  Why would any compassionate god do that?

I only just now noticed this thread and have now read through it all. 

You did a really nice job of summing up now I feel. 

In my life, of all of the people I have encountered, the people who have been the most terrible to me have identified as Christians. 

Justin and Salty - I was, in fact, already headed down the road to acceptance of LGBT folks before I ever came to BT.....but I figure you both should know that you have helped to make me positive I made the right turn.  I'm REALLY glad you post here on these issues. Thanks!

One day we'll end up at the same race and I'll buy you a beer.

A beer sounds great! 

Someday I'll be running a Marathon in your neck of the woods. 

Yeah, there's a couple of good ones here.....marathons and beers.     Just let me know.....and if you can stand the hell of 3 teenagers you'd be welcome to crash at our home and save a few bucks.  Standing offer.



2016-04-09 3:27 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

I might just have to take you up on that!

Remember I work at a University and manage students in my laboratory.  I have a hunch your kids are much more well behaved then most of these kids

2016-04-15 11:14 AM
in reply to: trijamie

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate
Originally posted by trijamie

Awesome post LB. I'm so glad that there are more and more "on the fence" people that are finally shifting towards actually treating the LGBT community like decent human beings. I was never really exposed to it much as a kid, so on the rare occasion that it came up, I naturally would have that "ew that's weird" reaction until I learned more about the gay community and the bull crap that they have to put up with. I now love and support my gay and lesbian friends more than ever, and think that they deserve to be treated like they are- good people. A lot of hard core anti-gays will just continue on refusing to budge. Shouting at them that they're stupid for believing what they believe will only make them stick to their guns more, but luckily more and more middle ground people are becoming accepting and supportive.

Anybody get a load of that DieselTec mechanic in Michigan that was gay bashing and furiously stated that he would refuse service to gays? I almost blew a gasket just trying to understand and still retain some respect for people like that. He's gotten a lot of national attention, and people are having a field day with the yelp reviews for his company   http://www.yelp.com/biz/dieseltec-grandville




I'm a bit late to this thread, but it certainly is a good discussion. I think this brings up another big point that hasn't been touched on, and that is the importance of raising kids to understand differences and accepting people for who they are. My mom raised my brother and I in that way, and at the time there wasn't a lot of open dialog on the matter, so I just assumed that everyone else was the same way. When I went to college and needed a place, I found a guy that had an apartment with an extra room to rent. He was a decent enough guy who happened to be gay. He also happened to be a die hard sports fan. I was fine with the gay part, never really gave it any thought. I wasn't thrilled about the sports though (I was a skater/garage band type kid, so professional sports were lame). Anyway, it was a really eye opening experience to see how my "friends" from high school reacted. Like totally freaked out. I just couldn't understand it. I mean; he happened to like dudes...so did our other roommate who was a girl, so why would either bother me more than the other? It was really eye opening though. I had one "friend" who drove two hours to visit then refused to stay at the apartment...needless to say I stopped talking to that one, among others.

Having young kids of my own, I see how difficult it is. There are so many external factors pushing them into categorizations of this being right and that being weird or wrong, that it takes constant reinforcement. I'm assuming the fact that we are in Texas might have a bit to do with it as well. But as a parent you have to be diligent without being preachy or making it into a big deal. Some dudes like dudes. You can wear whatever clothes make you feel comfortable. Some girls marry girls, some marry boys, some don't get married and own 30 cats (that's my 6 year old's current plan).

The only real negative the whole roommate experience has had on me long term is he did convert me. I have been a die hard Steelers fan ever since living with him. Although I wasn't born a Steelers fan, I don't think it was a choice either.
2016-04-15 11:27 AM
in reply to: 0

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Denver, Colorado
Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate
Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by trijamie

Awesome post LB. I'm so glad that there are more and more "on the fence" people that are finally shifting towards actually treating the LGBT community like decent human beings. I was never really exposed to it much as a kid, so on the rare occasion that it came up, I naturally would have that "ew that's weird" reaction until I learned more about the gay community and the bull crap that they have to put up with. I now love and support my gay and lesbian friends more than ever, and think that they deserve to be treated like they are- good people. A lot of hard core anti-gays will just continue on refusing to budge. Shouting at them that they're stupid for believing what they believe will only make them stick to their guns more, but luckily more and more middle ground people are becoming accepting and supportive.

Anybody get a load of that DieselTec mechanic in Michigan that was gay bashing and furiously stated that he would refuse service to gays? I almost blew a gasket just trying to understand and still retain some respect for people like that. He's gotten a lot of national attention, and people are having a field day with the yelp reviews for his company   http://www.yelp.com/biz/dieseltec-grandville




I'm a bit late to this thread, but it certainly is a good discussion. I think this brings up another big point that hasn't been touched on, and that is the importance of raising kids to understand differences and accepting people for who they are. My mom raised my brother and I in that way, and at the time there wasn't a lot of open dialog on the matter, so I just assumed that everyone else was the same way. When I went to college and needed a place, I found a guy that had an apartment with an extra room to rent. He was a decent enough guy who happened to be gay. He also happened to be a die hard sports fan. I was fine with the gay part, never really gave it any thought. I wasn't thrilled about the sports though (I was a skater/garage band type kid, so professional sports were lame). Anyway, it was a really eye opening experience to see how my "friends" from high school reacted. Like totally freaked out. I just couldn't understand it. I mean; he happened to like dudes...so did our other roommate who was a girl, so why would either bother me more than the other? It was really eye opening though. I had one "friend" who drove two hours to visit then refused to stay at the apartment...needless to say I stopped talking to that one, among others.

Having young kids of my own, I see how difficult it is. There are so many external factors pushing them into categorizations of this being right and that being weird or wrong, that it takes constant reinforcement. I'm assuming the fact that we are in Texas might have a bit to do with it as well. But as a parent you have to be diligent without being preachy or making it into a big deal. Some dudes like dudes. You can wear whatever clothes make you feel comfortable. Some girls marry girls, some marry boys, some don't get married and own 30 cats (that's my 6 year old's current plan).

The only real negative the whole roommate experience has had on me long term is he did convert me. I have been a die hard Steelers fan ever since living with him. Although I wasn't born a Steelers fan, I don't think it was a choice either.


I noticed people fear something they do not know/never met. One day I took my male friends to a gay club. They were opposed and said it was disgusting - even though they never actually met a homosexual person (or were not aware). Their biggest concern was that gay guys would touch them, "fall in love" with them, or just found them attractive in general, and that scared my friends. After the whole night of having fun at the gay club, they were disappointed, because.... no one guy hit on them!! They started to ask: hey, I don't look right? Am I ugly? I'm not handsome...? Umm... no dude, just because you're man does not mean all homosexual males will fall in love with you. Nor rape you. Believe me, they changed the way they think about this subject.

Edited by marysia83 2016-04-15 11:29 AM
2016-04-15 1:12 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate
Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by trijamie

Awesome post LB. I'm so glad that there are more and more "on the fence" people that are finally shifting towards actually treating the LGBT community like decent human beings. I was never really exposed to it much as a kid, so on the rare occasion that it came up, I naturally would have that "ew that's weird" reaction until I learned more about the gay community and the bull crap that they have to put up with. I now love and support my gay and lesbian friends more than ever, and think that they deserve to be treated like they are- good people. A lot of hard core anti-gays will just continue on refusing to budge. Shouting at them that they're stupid for believing what they believe will only make them stick to their guns more, but luckily more and more middle ground people are becoming accepting and supportive.

Anybody get a load of that DieselTec mechanic in Michigan that was gay bashing and furiously stated that he would refuse service to gays? I almost blew a gasket just trying to understand and still retain some respect for people like that. He's gotten a lot of national attention, and people are having a field day with the yelp reviews for his company   http://www.yelp.com/biz/dieseltec-grandville




I'm a bit late to this thread, but it certainly is a good discussion. I think this brings up another big point that hasn't been touched on, and that is the importance of raising kids to understand differences and accepting people for who they are. My mom raised my brother and I in that way, and at the time there wasn't a lot of open dialog on the matter, so I just assumed that everyone else was the same way. When I went to college and needed a place, I found a guy that had an apartment with an extra room to rent. He was a decent enough guy who happened to be gay. He also happened to be a die hard sports fan. I was fine with the gay part, never really gave it any thought. I wasn't thrilled about the sports though (I was a skater/garage band type kid, so professional sports were lame). Anyway, it was a really eye opening experience to see how my "friends" from high school reacted. Like totally freaked out. I just couldn't understand it. I mean; he happened to like dudes...so did our other roommate who was a girl, so why would either bother me more than the other? It was really eye opening though. I had one "friend" who drove two hours to visit then refused to stay at the apartment...needless to say I stopped talking to that one, among others.

Having young kids of my own, I see how difficult it is. There are so many external factors pushing them into categorizations of this being right and that being weird or wrong, that it takes constant reinforcement. I'm assuming the fact that we are in Texas might have a bit to do with it as well. But as a parent you have to be diligent without being preachy or making it into a big deal. Some dudes like dudes. You can wear whatever clothes make you feel comfortable. Some girls marry girls, some marry boys, some don't get married and own 30 cats (that's my 6 year old's current plan).

The only real negative the whole roommate experience has had on me long term is he did convert me. I have been a die hard Steelers fan ever since living with him. Although I wasn't born a Steelers fan, I don't think it was a choice either.


I grew up in Baltimore, and I know a lot of Ravens fans who would much rather be marooned on a desert island with a gay guy than with a Steelers fan. I suppose that's progress.
2016-04-15 2:15 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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Chicago, Illinois
Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate
Originally posted by marysia83

After the whole night of having fun at the gay club, they were disappointed, because.... no one guy hit on them!! They started to ask: hey, I don't look right? Am I ugly? I'm not handsome...? Umm... no dude, just because you're man does not mean all homosexual males will fall in love with you. Nor rape you. Believe me, they changed the way they think about this subject.


I feel better about myself. I hung out for a good hour in a drag queen salon and one of the guys in drag was flirting with me. I glad to hear I am special. Also learned if you are a girl and want a wig to role play with your SO a drag queen salon is the best place to go.

when it comes to marriage I almost wish we could just call legal marriages civil unions in terms of law and let "marriage" be a religious only term. funny how people will fight to save a word. Fighting over language is very silly to me.

I will also say I would not be surprised if pendulum eventually swings the other way against gay in 20 to 40 years. People are weird like that.


2016-04-15 2:56 PM
in reply to: marysia83

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Katy, Texas
Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate
Originally posted by marysia83

Originally posted by 3mar

Originally posted by trijamie

Awesome post LB. I'm so glad that there are more and more "on the fence" people that are finally shifting towards actually treating the LGBT community like decent human beings. I was never really exposed to it much as a kid, so on the rare occasion that it came up, I naturally would have that "ew that's weird" reaction until I learned more about the gay community and the bull crap that they have to put up with. I now love and support my gay and lesbian friends more than ever, and think that they deserve to be treated like they are- good people. A lot of hard core anti-gays will just continue on refusing to budge. Shouting at them that they're stupid for believing what they believe will only make them stick to their guns more, but luckily more and more middle ground people are becoming accepting and supportive.

Anybody get a load of that DieselTec mechanic in Michigan that was gay bashing and furiously stated that he would refuse service to gays? I almost blew a gasket just trying to understand and still retain some respect for people like that. He's gotten a lot of national attention, and people are having a field day with the yelp reviews for his company   http://www.yelp.com/biz/dieseltec-grandville




I'm a bit late to this thread, but it certainly is a good discussion. I think this brings up another big point that hasn't been touched on, and that is the importance of raising kids to understand differences and accepting people for who they are. My mom raised my brother and I in that way, and at the time there wasn't a lot of open dialog on the matter, so I just assumed that everyone else was the same way. When I went to college and needed a place, I found a guy that had an apartment with an extra room to rent. He was a decent enough guy who happened to be gay. He also happened to be a die hard sports fan. I was fine with the gay part, never really gave it any thought. I wasn't thrilled about the sports though (I was a skater/garage band type kid, so professional sports were lame). Anyway, it was a really eye opening experience to see how my "friends" from high school reacted. Like totally freaked out. I just couldn't understand it. I mean; he happened to like dudes...so did our other roommate who was a girl, so why would either bother me more than the other? It was really eye opening though. I had one "friend" who drove two hours to visit then refused to stay at the apartment...needless to say I stopped talking to that one, among others.

Having young kids of my own, I see how difficult it is. There are so many external factors pushing them into categorizations of this being right and that being weird or wrong, that it takes constant reinforcement. I'm assuming the fact that we are in Texas might have a bit to do with it as well. But as a parent you have to be diligent without being preachy or making it into a big deal. Some dudes like dudes. You can wear whatever clothes make you feel comfortable. Some girls marry girls, some marry boys, some don't get married and own 30 cats (that's my 6 year old's current plan).

The only real negative the whole roommate experience has had on me long term is he did convert me. I have been a die hard Steelers fan ever since living with him. Although I wasn't born a Steelers fan, I don't think it was a choice either.


I noticed people fear something they do not know/never met. One day I took my male friends to a gay club. They were opposed and said it was disgusting - even though they never actually met a homosexual person (or were not aware). Their biggest concern was that gay guys would touch them, "fall in love" with them, or just found them attractive in general, and that scared my friends. After the whole night of having fun at the gay club, they were disappointed, because.... no one guy hit on them!! They started to ask: hey, I don't look right? Am I ugly? I'm not handsome...? Umm... no dude, just because you're man does not mean all homosexual males will fall in love with you. Nor rape you. Believe me, they changed the way they think about this subject.


I've noticed that same "fear". Even if they did, so what? Take it as a compliment. And for most guys, if there aren't girl's falling all over themselves to chat with you, then the guys likely won't either.

In all the parties we had, and going to the local gay club (my roommate new the door guy so I was able to get in at 19 which was sweet) I never once got hit on. They all knew I was straight, and that was that. This totally reminded me of a something I hadn't thought about in years though. A while after I had moved out, I was having problems of some sort with a girl (I had the typical "nice guy" problems) and I was sitting on a bench at a park by the college all depressed and feeling sorry for myself, and one of my old roommate's friends and his boyfriend recognized me and came over. It was the only time I ever got even a remark from any of his friends...it went like this:

Him: Oh hey Omar...you look depressed, is it vagina problems again?
Me: Yeah, but I don't want to talk about it.
Him: Ok, well, if it makes you feel any better, before I realized it was you, I was thinking, 'Who's that hot sad looking guy over there'
Me: It does, thanks.

It did actually make me feel better, and laugh. I'm still friends with him on facebook, I'll have to message him.
2016-04-18 11:06 AM
in reply to: 3mar

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Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: The whole homosexuality debate

Originally posted by 3mar
Originally posted by trijamie

Awesome post LB. I'm so glad that there are more and more "on the fence" people that are finally shifting towards actually treating the LGBT community like decent human beings. I was never really exposed to it much as a kid, so on the rare occasion that it came up, I naturally would have that "ew that's weird" reaction until I learned more about the gay community and the bull crap that they have to put up with. I now love and support my gay and lesbian friends more than ever, and think that they deserve to be treated like they are- good people. A lot of hard core anti-gays will just continue on refusing to budge. Shouting at them that they're stupid for believing what they believe will only make them stick to their guns more, but luckily more and more middle ground people are becoming accepting and supportive.

Anybody get a load of that DieselTec mechanic in Michigan that was gay bashing and furiously stated that he would refuse service to gays? I almost blew a gasket just trying to understand and still retain some respect for people like that. He's gotten a lot of national attention, and people are having a field day with the yelp reviews for his company   http://www.yelp.com/biz/dieseltec-grandville

I'm a bit late to this thread, but it certainly is a good discussion. I think this brings up another big point that hasn't been touched on, and that is the importance of raising kids to understand differences and accepting people for who they are. My mom raised my brother and I in that way, and at the time there wasn't a lot of open dialog on the matter, so I just assumed that everyone else was the same way. When I went to college and needed a place, I found a guy that had an apartment with an extra room to rent. He was a decent enough guy who happened to be gay. He also happened to be a die hard sports fan. I was fine with the gay part, never really gave it any thought. I wasn't thrilled about the sports though (I was a skater/garage band type kid, so professional sports were lame). Anyway, it was a really eye opening experience to see how my "friends" from high school reacted. Like totally freaked out. I just couldn't understand it. I mean; he happened to like dudes...so did our other roommate who was a girl, so why would either bother me more than the other? It was really eye opening though. I had one "friend" who drove two hours to visit then refused to stay at the apartment...needless to say I stopped talking to that one, among others. Having young kids of my own, I see how difficult it is. There are so many external factors pushing them into categorizations of this being right and that being weird or wrong, that it takes constant reinforcement. I'm assuming the fact that we are in Texas might have a bit to do with it as well. But as a parent you have to be diligent without being preachy or making it into a big deal. Some dudes like dudes. You can wear whatever clothes make you feel comfortable. Some girls marry girls, some marry boys, some don't get married and own 30 cats (that's my 6 year old's current plan). The only real negative the whole roommate experience has had on me long term is he did convert me. I have been a die hard Steelers fan ever since living with him. Although I wasn't born a Steelers fan, I don't think it was a choice either.

I just want you to know, that it is a choice to be a steelers fan and you weren't born that way.  There is conversion therapy available, but it is very controversial.

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