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 2015-07-03 8:48 PM in reply to: NXS |
 286   , |  Subject: RE: Why is "faith" goodOriginally posted by NXS I think that is a good way of putting it. My thought is that there is nothing wrong with believing in a god, however one sees such a god, as long as the person doesn't push their faith beliefs onto others, or bring it into government, and law making. Or chastise people who don't believe as they do..that is when faith can go from 'good' to not so good.Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by NXS but why is it that often we hear religious people give credit to 'God' when things go right, but it's a person's fault (free will) if 'sins' are committed? Both are merely human choices, to do good or bad. People can believe anything they wish, but I left religion because it caused me to do just that...to give the credit to god when things went well and to wonder where God was, when things in the world aren't going right. When in reality, life is all the sum total of people's choices. But, everyone has to find the path that works for them. I just didn't see any benefit in putting my 'faith' in a fantasy life. Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by morey000 happen to agree with this. don't think that religion or being 'faith filled' makes anyone a better person. Originally posted by dmiller5 I always hear people praising others for having "faith." Why is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking a good thing? I'm gonna' go back and try to answer the OP's original question. Faith is not inherently a good thing. However it IS treated as a good thing, so that people feel better about themselves for believing in things that make them feel good, which otherwise they'd know were not true.
Obviously there are plenty of "faith filled" people who are good and bad, but in my experience I typically see faith making people far better than they ever were before. I do a lot of work with my church mentoring men and my wife and I mentor couples in crisis and I could spend hours telling you amazing stories of lives changing through faith. One close friend of mine was a 5 time felon in and out of jail his whole life who turned his life around through faith. He's now an extremely successful businessman father of 3 and sober for over 5 years. Faith isn't just about going to church and saying, whelp I have to live by all these rules now. It's about accepting that there is a power greater than yourself and getting in touch with it. But the thing is, that every one of us has the ability to do good or bad. It's a choice. We make choices daily. Being a ''good'' person isn't about something outside of yourself. This is why atheists are just as capable of being generous, charitable and compassionate as a supposedly 'devout' Christian, for example. The difference is, that the Christian convinces him/herself that his/her motivation to do good, comes from a deity, whereas the atheist knows it's a choice. The Christian is doing good because he/she wishes to do good. It honestly has nothing to do with a deity, at all. But religious people convince themselves of this, for whatever the reasons. I followed Christianity for a while, and remember believing that everything 'good' that was happening in my life was because I believed in a deity. Because that deity was steering the ship, but in reality, the sum total of my own choices is what caused my life to have good things in it. This isn't to say there doesn't exist a deity, there might be one that does exist. But, I'm just saying that the ability to do good or bad is a choice, that exists in every single person. Atheist or believer. The atheist just admits it. Christians admit that too. Doing what is good or evil is a choice called free will. The basic theological answer to your question deals with the origin of good and evil. Short answer, Christians believe that the origin of good was with God and we live in a fallen world so God is recognized as the source of good. The theology of good and evil has been written about since the 1st century so there is a lot of interesting thought on the subject. Do bad things happen to good people? Absolutely, but as Christ answers when asked by his disciples about whose sin caused a man's blindness, he replies no one. It had nothing to do with anyone's choices. There is a lot of bad theology out there when it comes to good and evil, and unfortunately it has caused many to believe that God doesn't care and like you, to leave the church. As I mentioned earlier, I have read and studied a great deal of theology and there is still much that remains and will always be a mystery to me. Peace. |
| 2015-07-04 1:26 PM in reply to: ChineseDemocracy |
Pro 9391  Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood That said Tony, if I'm a betting man forced to choose between an ever-improving (and always self-questioning) scientific process...versus choosing one of thousands of creation stories (that require adherents to ignore overwhelming scientific evidence based on ancient sacred texts)...I think I know which one I'm choosing. That said, I still have a faith in something more...sure, it's kind of silly, but it's my belief...and it isn't pre-packaged dogma fed to me by other humans who wish to control my life and my actions. just my 2 cents. (for which both atheists and religious folks can flame away at) aint easy being agnostic. Originally posted by dmiller5 I don't have "faith" in my beliefs, I've looked at the evidence and made a decision. Just like LB was saying earlier that has lead him to a slightly different decision. In some ways it's just semantics, but I always say that everyone has faith in something. Even with scientific evidence you have to have faith in the process in order to believe in the conclusions of the scientist. The Big Bang theory is certainly the main theory of our origins out there now, but it's really nothing more than a theory of the evolution of the universe and in no way explains the origin (as in what caused the big bang). Even within the Big Bang there are a lot of controversies and inconsistencies with observable Physics. As for faith in general we all have a desire to understand and live our lives to a core belief system. You can have faith in our governmental system to live a law abiding life, you can have faith in a religious system and try to live your life by that code, or you can have faith in yourself and live a self centered rebellious life.
Just to be clear, any faith that tries to control your life and your actions is a faith you should run from. The biggest problem with Christianity in America is self righteous "religious" people trying to tell people (like you) what they can and can't do. Churches and Religion are man made and that's why I personally hate religion. I have a shirt that says "my relationship doesn't allow me to have a religion" and it's the truth. |
| 2015-07-04 1:51 PM in reply to: SGirl |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by NXS I think that is a good way of putting it. My thought is that there is nothing wrong with believing in a god, however one sees such a god, as long as the person doesn't push their faith beliefs onto others, or bring it into government, and law making. Or chastise people who don't believe as they do..that is when faith can go from 'good' to not so good. Originally posted by SGirl The basic theological answer to your question deals with the origin of good and evil. Short answer, Christians believe that the origin of good was with God and we live in a fallen world so God is recognized as the source of good. The theology of good and evil has been written about since the 1st century so there is a lot of interesting thought on the subject. Do bad things happen to good people? Absolutely, but as Christ answers when asked by his disciples about whose sin caused a man's blindness, he replies no one. It had nothing to do with anyone's choices. There is a lot of bad theology out there when it comes to good and evil, and unfortunately it has caused many to believe that God doesn't care and like you, to leave the church. As I mentioned earlier, I have read and studied a great deal of theology and there is still much that remains and will always be a mystery to me. Peace. Originally posted by NXS but why is it that often we hear religious people give credit to 'God' when things go right, but it's a person's fault (free will) if 'sins' are committed? Both are merely human choices, to do good or bad. People can believe anything they wish, but I left religion because it caused me to do just that...to give the credit to god when things went well and to wonder where God was, when things in the world aren't going right. When in reality, life is all the sum total of people's choices. But, everyone has to find the path that works for them. I just didn't see any benefit in putting my 'faith' in a fantasy life. Originally posted by SGirl Christians admit that too. Doing what is good or evil is a choice called free will. Originally posted by tuwood But the thing is, that every one of us has the ability to do good or bad. It's a choice. We make choices daily. Being a ''good'' person isn't about something outside of yourself. This is why atheists are just as capable of being generous, charitable and compassionate as a supposedly 'devout' Christian, for example. The difference is, that the Christian convinces him/herself that his/her motivation to do good, comes from a deity, whereas the atheist knows it's a choice. The Christian is doing good because he/she wishes to do good. It honestly has nothing to do with a deity, at all. But religious people convince themselves of this, for whatever the reasons. I followed Christianity for a while, and remember believing that everything 'good' that was happening in my life was because I believed in a deity. Because that deity was steering the ship, but in reality, the sum total of my own choices is what caused my life to have good things in it. This isn't to say there doesn't exist a deity, there might be one that does exist. But, I'm just saying that the ability to do good or bad is a choice, that exists in every single person. Atheist or believer. The atheist just admits it. Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by morey000 happen to agree with this. don't think that religion or being 'faith filled' makes anyone a better person. Originally posted by dmiller5 I always hear people praising others for having "faith." Why is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking a good thing? I'm gonna' go back and try to answer the OP's original question. Faith is not inherently a good thing. However it IS treated as a good thing, so that people feel better about themselves for believing in things that make them feel good, which otherwise they'd know were not true.
Obviously there are plenty of "faith filled" people who are good and bad, but in my experience I typically see faith making people far better than they ever were before. I do a lot of work with my church mentoring men and my wife and I mentor couples in crisis and I could spend hours telling you amazing stories of lives changing through faith. One close friend of mine was a 5 time felon in and out of jail his whole life who turned his life around through faith. He's now an extremely successful businessman father of 3 and sober for over 5 years. Faith isn't just about going to church and saying, whelp I have to live by all these rules now. It's about accepting that there is a power greater than yourself and getting in touch with it. I agree that many "christians" like to get all self righteous and tell others how they need to live their lives because the "Bible says". However, any forced behavior is never a good thing no matter which side is pushing that behavior. The best behavior is that which comes from within. An atheist who has a deviant heart but does "good" because societies laws forces her to be good is no different than a christian who only does good because her church or the Bible tells her to. |
| 2015-07-06 7:17 AM in reply to: tuwood |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood That said Tony, if I'm a betting man forced to choose between an ever-improving (and always self-questioning) scientific process...versus choosing one of thousands of creation stories (that require adherents to ignore overwhelming scientific evidence based on ancient sacred texts)...I think I know which one I'm choosing. That said, I still have a faith in something more...sure, it's kind of silly, but it's my belief...and it isn't pre-packaged dogma fed to me by other humans who wish to control my life and my actions. just my 2 cents. (for which both atheists and religious folks can flame away at) aint easy being agnostic. Originally posted by dmiller5 I don't have "faith" in my beliefs, I've looked at the evidence and made a decision. Just like LB was saying earlier that has lead him to a slightly different decision. In some ways it's just semantics, but I always say that everyone has faith in something. Even with scientific evidence you have to have faith in the process in order to believe in the conclusions of the scientist. The Big Bang theory is certainly the main theory of our origins out there now, but it's really nothing more than a theory of the evolution of the universe and in no way explains the origin (as in what caused the big bang). Even within the Big Bang there are a lot of controversies and inconsistencies with observable Physics. As for faith in general we all have a desire to understand and live our lives to a core belief system. You can have faith in our governmental system to live a law abiding life, you can have faith in a religious system and try to live your life by that code, or you can have faith in yourself and live a self centered rebellious life.
Just to be clear, any faith that tries to control your life and your actions is a faith you should run from. The biggest problem with Christianity in America is self righteous "religious" people trying to tell people (like you) what they can and can't do. Churches and Religion are man made and that's why I personally hate religion. I have a shirt that says "my relationship doesn't allow me to have a religion" and it's the truth. I like what you say here. |
| 2015-07-06 7:57 AM in reply to: SGirl |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood I like what you say here. Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood That said Tony, if I'm a betting man forced to choose between an ever-improving (and always self-questioning) scientific process...versus choosing one of thousands of creation stories (that require adherents to ignore overwhelming scientific evidence based on ancient sacred texts)...I think I know which one I'm choosing. That said, I still have a faith in something more...sure, it's kind of silly, but it's my belief...and it isn't pre-packaged dogma fed to me by other humans who wish to control my life and my actions. just my 2 cents. (for which both atheists and religious folks can flame away at) aint easy being agnostic. Originally posted by dmiller5 I don't have "faith" in my beliefs, I've looked at the evidence and made a decision. Just like LB was saying earlier that has lead him to a slightly different decision. In some ways it's just semantics, but I always say that everyone has faith in something. Even with scientific evidence you have to have faith in the process in order to believe in the conclusions of the scientist. The Big Bang theory is certainly the main theory of our origins out there now, but it's really nothing more than a theory of the evolution of the universe and in no way explains the origin (as in what caused the big bang). Even within the Big Bang there are a lot of controversies and inconsistencies with observable Physics. As for faith in general we all have a desire to understand and live our lives to a core belief system. You can have faith in our governmental system to live a law abiding life, you can have faith in a religious system and try to live your life by that code, or you can have faith in yourself and live a self centered rebellious life.
Just to be clear, any faith that tries to control your life and your actions is a faith you should run from. The biggest problem with Christianity in America is self righteous "religious" people trying to tell people (like you) what they can and can't do. Churches and Religion are man made and that's why I personally hate religion. I have a shirt that says "my relationship doesn't allow me to have a religion" and it's the truth. See, I can kinda dig that. I don't agree, but I don't think that hurts other people. You do you, and I do me. |
| 2015-07-06 8:55 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood I like what you say here. Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood That said Tony, if I'm a betting man forced to choose between an ever-improving (and always self-questioning) scientific process...versus choosing one of thousands of creation stories (that require adherents to ignore overwhelming scientific evidence based on ancient sacred texts)...I think I know which one I'm choosing. That said, I still have a faith in something more...sure, it's kind of silly, but it's my belief...and it isn't pre-packaged dogma fed to me by other humans who wish to control my life and my actions. just my 2 cents. (for which both atheists and religious folks can flame away at) aint easy being agnostic. Originally posted by dmiller5 I don't have "faith" in my beliefs, I've looked at the evidence and made a decision. Just like LB was saying earlier that has lead him to a slightly different decision. In some ways it's just semantics, but I always say that everyone has faith in something. Even with scientific evidence you have to have faith in the process in order to believe in the conclusions of the scientist. The Big Bang theory is certainly the main theory of our origins out there now, but it's really nothing more than a theory of the evolution of the universe and in no way explains the origin (as in what caused the big bang). Even within the Big Bang there are a lot of controversies and inconsistencies with observable Physics. As for faith in general we all have a desire to understand and live our lives to a core belief system. You can have faith in our governmental system to live a law abiding life, you can have faith in a religious system and try to live your life by that code, or you can have faith in yourself and live a self centered rebellious life.
Just to be clear, any faith that tries to control your life and your actions is a faith you should run from. The biggest problem with Christianity in America is self righteous "religious" people trying to tell people (like you) what they can and can't do. Churches and Religion are man made and that's why I personally hate religion. I have a shirt that says "my relationship doesn't allow me to have a religion" and it's the truth. See, I can kinda dig that. I don't agree, but I don't think that hurts other people. You do you, and I do me. I truly am a Libertarian at the core. I obviously would prefer people act a "certain way" but I would never demand them to unless it's infringing on the rights of others. |
| 2015-07-06 9:23 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood I like what you say here. Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood That said Tony, if I'm a betting man forced to choose between an ever-improving (and always self-questioning) scientific process...versus choosing one of thousands of creation stories (that require adherents to ignore overwhelming scientific evidence based on ancient sacred texts)...I think I know which one I'm choosing. That said, I still have a faith in something more...sure, it's kind of silly, but it's my belief...and it isn't pre-packaged dogma fed to me by other humans who wish to control my life and my actions. just my 2 cents. (for which both atheists and religious folks can flame away at) aint easy being agnostic. Originally posted by dmiller5 I don't have "faith" in my beliefs, I've looked at the evidence and made a decision. Just like LB was saying earlier that has lead him to a slightly different decision. In some ways it's just semantics, but I always say that everyone has faith in something. Even with scientific evidence you have to have faith in the process in order to believe in the conclusions of the scientist. The Big Bang theory is certainly the main theory of our origins out there now, but it's really nothing more than a theory of the evolution of the universe and in no way explains the origin (as in what caused the big bang). Even within the Big Bang there are a lot of controversies and inconsistencies with observable Physics. As for faith in general we all have a desire to understand and live our lives to a core belief system. You can have faith in our governmental system to live a law abiding life, you can have faith in a religious system and try to live your life by that code, or you can have faith in yourself and live a self centered rebellious life.
Just to be clear, any faith that tries to control your life and your actions is a faith you should run from. The biggest problem with Christianity in America is self righteous "religious" people trying to tell people (like you) what they can and can't do. Churches and Religion are man made and that's why I personally hate religion. I have a shirt that says "my relationship doesn't allow me to have a religion" and it's the truth. See, I can kinda dig that. I don't agree, but I don't think that hurts other people. You do you, and I do me. I truly am a Libertarian at the core. I obviously would prefer people act a "certain way" but I would never demand them to unless it's infringing on the rights of others. Sooo, color me a little confused. You said earlier you don't like man made religions...yet you're quoting the bible. A document written by men? |
| 2015-07-06 10:01 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood I like what you say here. Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood That said Tony, if I'm a betting man forced to choose between an ever-improving (and always self-questioning) scientific process...versus choosing one of thousands of creation stories (that require adherents to ignore overwhelming scientific evidence based on ancient sacred texts)...I think I know which one I'm choosing. That said, I still have a faith in something more...sure, it's kind of silly, but it's my belief...and it isn't pre-packaged dogma fed to me by other humans who wish to control my life and my actions. just my 2 cents. (for which both atheists and religious folks can flame away at) aint easy being agnostic. Originally posted by dmiller5 I don't have "faith" in my beliefs, I've looked at the evidence and made a decision. Just like LB was saying earlier that has lead him to a slightly different decision. In some ways it's just semantics, but I always say that everyone has faith in something. Even with scientific evidence you have to have faith in the process in order to believe in the conclusions of the scientist. The Big Bang theory is certainly the main theory of our origins out there now, but it's really nothing more than a theory of the evolution of the universe and in no way explains the origin (as in what caused the big bang). Even within the Big Bang there are a lot of controversies and inconsistencies with observable Physics. As for faith in general we all have a desire to understand and live our lives to a core belief system. You can have faith in our governmental system to live a law abiding life, you can have faith in a religious system and try to live your life by that code, or you can have faith in yourself and live a self centered rebellious life.
Just to be clear, any faith that tries to control your life and your actions is a faith you should run from. The biggest problem with Christianity in America is self righteous "religious" people trying to tell people (like you) what they can and can't do. Churches and Religion are man made and that's why I personally hate religion. I have a shirt that says "my relationship doesn't allow me to have a religion" and it's the truth. See, I can kinda dig that. I don't agree, but I don't think that hurts other people. You do you, and I do me. I truly am a Libertarian at the core. I obviously would prefer people act a "certain way" but I would never demand them to unless it's infringing on the rights of others. Sooo, color me a little confused. You said earlier you don't like man made religions...yet you're quoting the bible. A document written by men? lol, you just love poking at this stuff don't you. The Bible is a book that was physically written by over 40 men. I believe that the writings in the Bible were inspired by God and penned through man. Man has taken the Bible and created all kinds of whacky things and that is what I call Religion. I do not believe in that |
| 2015-07-06 10:13 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good dmiller is a Godless heathen with an ever improving swim and run. He's not complicated. |
| 2015-07-06 11:16 AM in reply to: tuwood |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by tuwood I like what you say here. Originally posted by ChineseDemocracy Originally posted by tuwood That said Tony, if I'm a betting man forced to choose between an ever-improving (and always self-questioning) scientific process...versus choosing one of thousands of creation stories (that require adherents to ignore overwhelming scientific evidence based on ancient sacred texts)...I think I know which one I'm choosing. That said, I still have a faith in something more...sure, it's kind of silly, but it's my belief...and it isn't pre-packaged dogma fed to me by other humans who wish to control my life and my actions. just my 2 cents. (for which both atheists and religious folks can flame away at) aint easy being agnostic. Originally posted by dmiller5 I don't have "faith" in my beliefs, I've looked at the evidence and made a decision. Just like LB was saying earlier that has lead him to a slightly different decision. In some ways it's just semantics, but I always say that everyone has faith in something. Even with scientific evidence you have to have faith in the process in order to believe in the conclusions of the scientist. The Big Bang theory is certainly the main theory of our origins out there now, but it's really nothing more than a theory of the evolution of the universe and in no way explains the origin (as in what caused the big bang). Even within the Big Bang there are a lot of controversies and inconsistencies with observable Physics. As for faith in general we all have a desire to understand and live our lives to a core belief system. You can have faith in our governmental system to live a law abiding life, you can have faith in a religious system and try to live your life by that code, or you can have faith in yourself and live a self centered rebellious life.
Just to be clear, any faith that tries to control your life and your actions is a faith you should run from. The biggest problem with Christianity in America is self righteous "religious" people trying to tell people (like you) what they can and can't do. Churches and Religion are man made and that's why I personally hate religion. I have a shirt that says "my relationship doesn't allow me to have a religion" and it's the truth. See, I can kinda dig that. I don't agree, but I don't think that hurts other people. You do you, and I do me. I truly am a Libertarian at the core. I obviously would prefer people act a "certain way" but I would never demand them to unless it's infringing on the rights of others. Sooo, color me a little confused. You said earlier you don't like man made religions...yet you're quoting the bible. A document written by men? lol, you just love poking at this stuff don't you. The Bible is a book that was physically written by over 40 men. I believe that the writings in the Bible were inspired by God and penned through man. Man has taken the Bible and created all kinds of whacky things and that is what I call Religion. I do not believe in that
ehh, sorry for poking, but at this point I'm mostly just trying to understand where you come from in your beliefs. Helps to improve the conversation.
LB, you forgot that I'm also a vegan hippie, its very important. |
| 2015-07-06 11:22 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good I didn't forget......I left it out so people wouldn't think you had no redeeming qualities. On another note, you surely aren't one of those vegan folks who needs to let everyone know about it. If I remember right my family was downing about half a cow when we met up with you in Edmonton. HAHAHA!! Edited by Left Brain 2015-07-06 11:25 AM |
| 2015-07-06 11:26 AM in reply to: Left Brain |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good half a cow and a family of lobsters if I remember. How do you know when a vegan walks into the room? Don't worry he'll tell you. |
| 2015-07-06 12:50 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Champion 7821 Brooklyn, NY | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by dmiller5 half a cow and a family of lobsters if I remember. How do you know when a vegan walks into the room? Don't worry he'll tell you. If the vegan is an ironman who also does crossfit, I wonder what they tell you about first? |
| 2015-07-06 1:14 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn Originally posted by dmiller5 If the vegan is an ironman who also does crossfit, I wonder what they tell you about first? half a cow and a family of lobsters if I remember. How do you know when a vegan walks into the room? Don't worry he'll tell you. That could make someone's head explode. My guess is that they would just blurt out how they were able to do an Ironman on only 3 hours per week of training and that during the race they ate nothing but a fig leaf and their own fingernails. Edited by Left Brain 2015-07-06 1:16 PM |
| 2015-07-07 3:29 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Veteran 495 Calgary | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by NXS I think that is a good way of putting it. My thought is that there is nothing wrong with believing in a god, however one sees such a god, as long as the person doesn't push their faith beliefs onto others, or bring it into government, and law making. Or chastise people who don't believe as they do..that is when faith can go from 'good' to not so good. Originally posted by SGirl The basic theological answer to your question deals with the origin of good and evil. Short answer, Christians believe that the origin of good was with God and we live in a fallen world so God is recognized as the source of good. The theology of good and evil has been written about since the 1st century so there is a lot of interesting thought on the subject. Do bad things happen to good people? Absolutely, but as Christ answers when asked by his disciples about whose sin caused a man's blindness, he replies no one. It had nothing to do with anyone's choices. There is a lot of bad theology out there when it comes to good and evil, and unfortunately it has caused many to believe that God doesn't care and like you, to leave the church. As I mentioned earlier, I have read and studied a great deal of theology and there is still much that remains and will always be a mystery to me. Peace. Originally posted by NXS but why is it that often we hear religious people give credit to 'God' when things go right, but it's a person's fault (free will) if 'sins' are committed? Both are merely human choices, to do good or bad. People can believe anything they wish, but I left religion because it caused me to do just that...to give the credit to god when things went well and to wonder where God was, when things in the world aren't going right. When in reality, life is all the sum total of people's choices. But, everyone has to find the path that works for them. I just didn't see any benefit in putting my 'faith' in a fantasy life. Originally posted by SGirl Christians admit that too. Doing what is good or evil is a choice called free will. Originally posted by tuwood But the thing is, that every one of us has the ability to do good or bad. It's a choice. We make choices daily. Being a ''good'' person isn't about something outside of yourself. This is why atheists are just as capable of being generous, charitable and compassionate as a supposedly 'devout' Christian, for example. The difference is, that the Christian convinces him/herself that his/her motivation to do good, comes from a deity, whereas the atheist knows it's a choice. The Christian is doing good because he/she wishes to do good. It honestly has nothing to do with a deity, at all. But religious people convince themselves of this, for whatever the reasons. I followed Christianity for a while, and remember believing that everything 'good' that was happening in my life was because I believed in a deity. Because that deity was steering the ship, but in reality, the sum total of my own choices is what caused my life to have good things in it. This isn't to say there doesn't exist a deity, there might be one that does exist. But, I'm just saying that the ability to do good or bad is a choice, that exists in every single person. Atheist or believer. The atheist just admits it. Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by morey000 happen to agree with this. don't think that religion or being 'faith filled' makes anyone a better person. Originally posted by dmiller5 I always hear people praising others for having "faith." Why is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking a good thing? I'm gonna' go back and try to answer the OP's original question. Faith is not inherently a good thing. However it IS treated as a good thing, so that people feel better about themselves for believing in things that make them feel good, which otherwise they'd know were not true.
Obviously there are plenty of "faith filled" people who are good and bad, but in my experience I typically see faith making people far better than they ever were before. I do a lot of work with my church mentoring men and my wife and I mentor couples in crisis and I could spend hours telling you amazing stories of lives changing through faith. One close friend of mine was a 5 time felon in and out of jail his whole life who turned his life around through faith. He's now an extremely successful businessman father of 3 and sober for over 5 years. Faith isn't just about going to church and saying, whelp I have to live by all these rules now. It's about accepting that there is a power greater than yourself and getting in touch with it. I agree that many "christians" like to get all self righteous and tell others how they need to live their lives because the "Bible says". However, any forced behavior is never a good thing no matter which side is pushing that behavior. The best behavior is that which comes from within. An atheist who has a deviant heart but does "good" because societies laws forces her to be good is no different than a christian who only does good because her church or the Bible tells her to. Behavior is behavior - why should motivation matter? I can understand if you are arguing that religion is more effective as a long term motivation for good behavior than some other types of motivation. But are you saying something more than this? If two people behave the same does it matter if one has purer motives? |
| 2015-07-07 5:39 PM in reply to: donw |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by donw Originally posted by tuwood Behavior is behavior - why should motivation matter? I can understand if you are arguing that religion is more effective as a long term motivation for good behavior than some other types of motivation. But are you saying something more than this? If two people behave the same does it matter if one has purer motives? Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by NXS I think that is a good way of putting it. My thought is that there is nothing wrong with believing in a god, however one sees such a god, as long as the person doesn't push their faith beliefs onto others, or bring it into government, and law making. Or chastise people who don't believe as they do..that is when faith can go from 'good' to not so good. Originally posted by SGirl The basic theological answer to your question deals with the origin of good and evil. Short answer, Christians believe that the origin of good was with God and we live in a fallen world so God is recognized as the source of good. The theology of good and evil has been written about since the 1st century so there is a lot of interesting thought on the subject. Do bad things happen to good people? Absolutely, but as Christ answers when asked by his disciples about whose sin caused a man's blindness, he replies no one. It had nothing to do with anyone's choices. There is a lot of bad theology out there when it comes to good and evil, and unfortunately it has caused many to believe that God doesn't care and like you, to leave the church. As I mentioned earlier, I have read and studied a great deal of theology and there is still much that remains and will always be a mystery to me. Peace. Originally posted by NXS but why is it that often we hear religious people give credit to 'God' when things go right, but it's a person's fault (free will) if 'sins' are committed? Both are merely human choices, to do good or bad. People can believe anything they wish, but I left religion because it caused me to do just that...to give the credit to god when things went well and to wonder where God was, when things in the world aren't going right. When in reality, life is all the sum total of people's choices. But, everyone has to find the path that works for them. I just didn't see any benefit in putting my 'faith' in a fantasy life. Originally posted by SGirl Christians admit that too. Doing what is good or evil is a choice called free will. Originally posted by tuwood But the thing is, that every one of us has the ability to do good or bad. It's a choice. We make choices daily. Being a ''good'' person isn't about something outside of yourself. This is why atheists are just as capable of being generous, charitable and compassionate as a supposedly 'devout' Christian, for example. The difference is, that the Christian convinces him/herself that his/her motivation to do good, comes from a deity, whereas the atheist knows it's a choice. The Christian is doing good because he/she wishes to do good. It honestly has nothing to do with a deity, at all. But religious people convince themselves of this, for whatever the reasons. I followed Christianity for a while, and remember believing that everything 'good' that was happening in my life was because I believed in a deity. Because that deity was steering the ship, but in reality, the sum total of my own choices is what caused my life to have good things in it. This isn't to say there doesn't exist a deity, there might be one that does exist. But, I'm just saying that the ability to do good or bad is a choice, that exists in every single person. Atheist or believer. The atheist just admits it. Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by morey000 happen to agree with this. don't think that religion or being 'faith filled' makes anyone a better person. Originally posted by dmiller5 I always hear people praising others for having "faith." Why is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking a good thing? I'm gonna' go back and try to answer the OP's original question. Faith is not inherently a good thing. However it IS treated as a good thing, so that people feel better about themselves for believing in things that make them feel good, which otherwise they'd know were not true.
Obviously there are plenty of "faith filled" people who are good and bad, but in my experience I typically see faith making people far better than they ever were before. I do a lot of work with my church mentoring men and my wife and I mentor couples in crisis and I could spend hours telling you amazing stories of lives changing through faith. One close friend of mine was a 5 time felon in and out of jail his whole life who turned his life around through faith. He's now an extremely successful businessman father of 3 and sober for over 5 years. Faith isn't just about going to church and saying, whelp I have to live by all these rules now. It's about accepting that there is a power greater than yourself and getting in touch with it. I agree that many "christians" like to get all self righteous and tell others how they need to live their lives because the "Bible says". However, any forced behavior is never a good thing no matter which side is pushing that behavior. The best behavior is that which comes from within. An atheist who has a deviant heart but does "good" because societies laws forces her to be good is no different than a christian who only does good because her church or the Bible tells her to. Essentially I'm just trying to say that me being good because I want to be good is better than me being good because I am being compelled to be good through laws (or whatever). Not sure if that makes sense either. lol |
| 2015-07-07 5:48 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by donw Originally posted by tuwood Behavior is behavior - why should motivation matter? I can understand if you are arguing that religion is more effective as a long term motivation for good behavior than some other types of motivation. But are you saying something more than this? If two people behave the same does it matter if one has purer motives? Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by NXS I think that is a good way of putting it. My thought is that there is nothing wrong with believing in a god, however one sees such a god, as long as the person doesn't push their faith beliefs onto others, or bring it into government, and law making. Or chastise people who don't believe as they do..that is when faith can go from 'good' to not so good. Originally posted by SGirl The basic theological answer to your question deals with the origin of good and evil. Short answer, Christians believe that the origin of good was with God and we live in a fallen world so God is recognized as the source of good. The theology of good and evil has been written about since the 1st century so there is a lot of interesting thought on the subject. Do bad things happen to good people? Absolutely, but as Christ answers when asked by his disciples about whose sin caused a man's blindness, he replies no one. It had nothing to do with anyone's choices. There is a lot of bad theology out there when it comes to good and evil, and unfortunately it has caused many to believe that God doesn't care and like you, to leave the church. As I mentioned earlier, I have read and studied a great deal of theology and there is still much that remains and will always be a mystery to me. Peace. Originally posted by NXS but why is it that often we hear religious people give credit to 'God' when things go right, but it's a person's fault (free will) if 'sins' are committed? Both are merely human choices, to do good or bad. People can believe anything they wish, but I left religion because it caused me to do just that...to give the credit to god when things went well and to wonder where God was, when things in the world aren't going right. When in reality, life is all the sum total of people's choices. But, everyone has to find the path that works for them. I just didn't see any benefit in putting my 'faith' in a fantasy life. Originally posted by SGirl Christians admit that too. Doing what is good or evil is a choice called free will. Originally posted by tuwood But the thing is, that every one of us has the ability to do good or bad. It's a choice. We make choices daily. Being a ''good'' person isn't about something outside of yourself. This is why atheists are just as capable of being generous, charitable and compassionate as a supposedly 'devout' Christian, for example. The difference is, that the Christian convinces him/herself that his/her motivation to do good, comes from a deity, whereas the atheist knows it's a choice. The Christian is doing good because he/she wishes to do good. It honestly has nothing to do with a deity, at all. But religious people convince themselves of this, for whatever the reasons. I followed Christianity for a while, and remember believing that everything 'good' that was happening in my life was because I believed in a deity. Because that deity was steering the ship, but in reality, the sum total of my own choices is what caused my life to have good things in it. This isn't to say there doesn't exist a deity, there might be one that does exist. But, I'm just saying that the ability to do good or bad is a choice, that exists in every single person. Atheist or believer. The atheist just admits it. Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by morey000 happen to agree with this. don't think that religion or being 'faith filled' makes anyone a better person. Originally posted by dmiller5 I always hear people praising others for having "faith." Why is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking a good thing? I'm gonna' go back and try to answer the OP's original question. Faith is not inherently a good thing. However it IS treated as a good thing, so that people feel better about themselves for believing in things that make them feel good, which otherwise they'd know were not true.
Obviously there are plenty of "faith filled" people who are good and bad, but in my experience I typically see faith making people far better than they ever were before. I do a lot of work with my church mentoring men and my wife and I mentor couples in crisis and I could spend hours telling you amazing stories of lives changing through faith. One close friend of mine was a 5 time felon in and out of jail his whole life who turned his life around through faith. He's now an extremely successful businessman father of 3 and sober for over 5 years. Faith isn't just about going to church and saying, whelp I have to live by all these rules now. It's about accepting that there is a power greater than yourself and getting in touch with it. I agree that many "christians" like to get all self righteous and tell others how they need to live their lives because the "Bible says". However, any forced behavior is never a good thing no matter which side is pushing that behavior. The best behavior is that which comes from within. An atheist who has a deviant heart but does "good" because societies laws forces her to be good is no different than a christian who only does good because her church or the Bible tells her to. Essentially I'm just trying to say that me being good because I want to be good is better than me being good because I am being compelled to be good through laws (or whatever). Not sure if that makes sense either. lol Then what about the people who do good because they want to do good and they have no sense of a Savior, or God? For me, I'm back to conscience again. I see where you believe your good nature comes from, but there are plenty who live their lives the same way without the same belief. Again.....I'm asking because I'm still searching......in no way am I judging. I believe you when you say it's what has led you to that place in your heart and soul. |
| 2015-07-07 7:52 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Faith is only 'good'...if you have it.  I don't think it's 'bad,' per se...but if it infringes on people's rights...it is bad, then. But, that's dependent on the people who possess the faith, I guess. |
| 2015-07-07 7:56 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by donw Originally posted by tuwood Behavior is behavior - why should motivation matter? I can understand if you are arguing that religion is more effective as a long term motivation for good behavior than some other types of motivation. But are you saying something more than this? If two people behave the same does it matter if one has purer motives? Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by NXS I think that is a good way of putting it. My thought is that there is nothing wrong with believing in a god, however one sees such a god, as long as the person doesn't push their faith beliefs onto others, or bring it into government, and law making. Or chastise people who don't believe as they do..that is when faith can go from 'good' to not so good. Originally posted by SGirl The basic theological answer to your question deals with the origin of good and evil. Short answer, Christians believe that the origin of good was with God and we live in a fallen world so God is recognized as the source of good. The theology of good and evil has been written about since the 1st century so there is a lot of interesting thought on the subject. Do bad things happen to good people? Absolutely, but as Christ answers when asked by his disciples about whose sin caused a man's blindness, he replies no one. It had nothing to do with anyone's choices. There is a lot of bad theology out there when it comes to good and evil, and unfortunately it has caused many to believe that God doesn't care and like you, to leave the church. As I mentioned earlier, I have read and studied a great deal of theology and there is still much that remains and will always be a mystery to me. Peace. Originally posted by NXS but why is it that often we hear religious people give credit to 'God' when things go right, but it's a person's fault (free will) if 'sins' are committed? Both are merely human choices, to do good or bad. People can believe anything they wish, but I left religion because it caused me to do just that...to give the credit to god when things went well and to wonder where God was, when things in the world aren't going right. When in reality, life is all the sum total of people's choices. But, everyone has to find the path that works for them. I just didn't see any benefit in putting my 'faith' in a fantasy life. Originally posted by SGirl Christians admit that too. Doing what is good or evil is a choice called free will. Originally posted by tuwood But the thing is, that every one of us has the ability to do good or bad. It's a choice. We make choices daily. Being a ''good'' person isn't about something outside of yourself. This is why atheists are just as capable of being generous, charitable and compassionate as a supposedly 'devout' Christian, for example. The difference is, that the Christian convinces him/herself that his/her motivation to do good, comes from a deity, whereas the atheist knows it's a choice. The Christian is doing good because he/she wishes to do good. It honestly has nothing to do with a deity, at all. But religious people convince themselves of this, for whatever the reasons. I followed Christianity for a while, and remember believing that everything 'good' that was happening in my life was because I believed in a deity. Because that deity was steering the ship, but in reality, the sum total of my own choices is what caused my life to have good things in it. This isn't to say there doesn't exist a deity, there might be one that does exist. But, I'm just saying that the ability to do good or bad is a choice, that exists in every single person. Atheist or believer. The atheist just admits it. Originally posted by SGirl Originally posted by morey000 happen to agree with this. don't think that religion or being 'faith filled' makes anyone a better person. Originally posted by dmiller5 I always hear people praising others for having "faith." Why is the purposeful suspension of critical thinking a good thing? I'm gonna' go back and try to answer the OP's original question. Faith is not inherently a good thing. However it IS treated as a good thing, so that people feel better about themselves for believing in things that make them feel good, which otherwise they'd know were not true.
Obviously there are plenty of "faith filled" people who are good and bad, but in my experience I typically see faith making people far better than they ever were before. I do a lot of work with my church mentoring men and my wife and I mentor couples in crisis and I could spend hours telling you amazing stories of lives changing through faith. One close friend of mine was a 5 time felon in and out of jail his whole life who turned his life around through faith. He's now an extremely successful businessman father of 3 and sober for over 5 years. Faith isn't just about going to church and saying, whelp I have to live by all these rules now. It's about accepting that there is a power greater than yourself and getting in touch with it. I agree that many "christians" like to get all self righteous and tell others how they need to live their lives because the "Bible says". However, any forced behavior is never a good thing no matter which side is pushing that behavior. The best behavior is that which comes from within. An atheist who has a deviant heart but does "good" because societies laws forces her to be good is no different than a christian who only does good because her church or the Bible tells her to. Essentially I'm just trying to say that me being good because I want to be good is better than me being good because I am being compelled to be good through laws (or whatever). Not sure if that makes sense either. lol Then what about the people who do good because they want to do good and they have no sense of a Savior, or God? For me, I'm back to conscience again. I see where you believe your good nature comes from, but there are plenty who live their lives the same way without the same belief. Again.....I'm asking because I'm still searching......in no way am I judging. I believe you when you say it's what has led you to that place in your heart and soul. In this context I'm in no way saying anything about God or the reason the good is in there. I was simply stating that it's better for people to be genuinely good (no matter where it comes from) than to be fakers. I love reading about the philosophical, scientific, and religious aspects of things like love, conscience, good, evil, etc. and try to understand them. I also have a long way to go before I stop searching. :-/ |
| 2015-07-07 9:10 PM in reply to: SGirl |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by SGirl Faith is only 'good'...if you have it. I don't think it's 'bad,' per se...but if it infringes on people's rights...it is bad, then. But, that's dependent on the people who possess the faith, I guess. In looking at the Oly distance thread.......this seems like the metric system to me. |
| 2015-07-10 10:12 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good Originally posted by Left Brain lol ^_^Originally posted by SGirl Faith is only 'good'...if you have it. I don't think it's 'bad,' per se...but if it infringes on people's rights...it is bad, then. But, that's dependent on the people who possess the faith, I guess. In looking at the Oly distance thread.......this seems like the metric system to me. Edited by SGirl 2015-07-10 10:12 PM |
| 2015-07-17 10:41 AM in reply to: SGirl |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Why is "faith" good This lady lack's faith. Jesus did not come and pay her lunch bill http://www.aol.com/article/2015/07/16/woman-gets-arrested-after-cla... She should have read the book. "No Free Lunch: Paying the Price to Follow Jesus". |
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