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2016-02-21 1:33 PM

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Subject: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
A lot of the talk in 3mar's Equivalents thread mentioned this and how this was the hardest gap to overcome. I'm constantly seeing it mentioned, but not too much info on how to overcome it. Whenever I watch group swim classes at my pool I don't see much if any personal form critiques. It's just groups swimming their workouts together. Is it purely a mileage thing like in running (taking out the genetics issue on focusing on effort here)? Assuming I was willing to put in the work would form follow? I'm not asking what would it take to qualify for the olympics, but what would it take to make the gap from FOP tri swimmer to the "swimmers" group? In my last tri the average gap between packs was around 2 minutes, but the gap between what I call the FOP and the dolphins was 4 minutes! If it helps my personal #'s are about 1:25/100y race effort 1:35/100y cruising. I personally can't really go any slower or I start to flail, and I can't go much faster either before my form goes crazy and I end up going slower.


TL;DR - What type of work would it take to make the gap from FOP age grouper to the swimmers group?


2016-02-21 2:31 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Can't edit anymore, but my last tri was an olympic distance. Not sure if that helps clarify when I listed the average time between groups.
2016-02-21 3:45 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Dude with your pace i'd say you're already doing pretty good at race pace! How old are you if you don't mind my asking?

It looks like you could use some swim specific dry land training. Focus on back muscles, lats, biceps and triceps. A strong core also helps a lot. Also what you could try is improving your technique by doing a lot of technique specific drills to get a better feel for the water and for your form. It might help you shave a second or 2 per 100 m.

Happy swimming !
2016-02-21 4:01 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
A lot of the talk in 3mar's Equivalents thread mentioned this and how this was the hardest gap to overcome. I'm constantly seeing it mentioned, but not too much info on how to overcome it. Whenever I watch group swim classes at my pool I don't see much if any personal form critiques. It's just groups swimming their workouts together.
This is true, I see the same thing. A lot. And it, by itself, is a fatally flawed approach.


Is it purely a mileage thing like in running (taking out the genetics issue on focusing on effort here)? Assuming I was willing to put in the work would form follow?
Unfortunately, it is not a mileage thing. You need the yards, yes, but you could swim for 10 years and still have a horrible stroke, especially as an adult onset swimmer. Even if you now swim a lot, you very very likely need to get one-on-one assistance from a smart coach.


I'm not asking what would it take to qualify for the olympics, but what would it take to make the gap from FOP tri swimmer to the "swimmers" group? In my last tri the average gap between packs was around 2 minutes, but the gap between what I call the FOP and the dolphins was 4 minutes! If it helps my personal #'s are about 1:25/100y race effort 1:35/100y cruising. I personally can't really go any slower or I start to flail, and I can't go much faster either before my form goes crazy and I end up going slower. What type of work would it take to make the gap from FOP age grouper to the swimmers group?
Well, you need a few things: you gotta spend some pretty significant time in the water, you have to spend much of that time on fast swimming (intervals), you have to have an adaptable and open mind, and you have to get a lot of specific and tailored stroke technique help from coaches that actually know what they are doing and know how to teach (coaches like this are, unfortunately, a pretty rare breed).

If you do that, you will get a lot faster. But if you get your stroke is great and nearly perfect, you'll still be limited by your fitness and the size of your engine. In other words, if you're only a 50th percentile runner and a 50the percentile biker, you'll probably never be a 95th percentile swimmer. But if you're already an 80th percentile runner and cyclist, if you put in the yards and fix your stroke, it is absolutely reasonable to expect to become an 80th percentile swimmer.

Fyi, if you want some guidance on how to choose a great coach, we wrote this up recently:
http://darkspeedworks.com/blog-swimcoach.htm

2016-02-21 4:03 PM
in reply to: #5168310

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
It's that last bit that's hard. I think feedback on form is critical. Nothing beats private lessons with a really qualified person for that. Video is really helpful too. Here in CO we have a place called swim labs that I've heard a lot of positive feedback on that is 1:1 form feedback.

I also think there are benefits of strength training. That was the big difference between high school and college swimming for me.
2016-02-21 5:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
EDIT: Forgot to add quotes
Originally posted by AdonMobin

Dude with your pace i'd say you're already doing pretty good at race pace! How old are you if you don't mind my asking?

It looks like you could use some swim specific dry land training. Focus on back muscles, lats, biceps and triceps. A strong core also helps a lot. Also what you could try is improving your technique by doing a lot of technique specific drills to get a better feel for the water and for your form. It might help you shave a second or 2 per 100 m.

Happy swimming !


I'm 28. I definitely agree that I'm weak in the areas that you mentioned. Also note that my times are per yards and not meters.

I also don't know too many drills. I just started googling that, but I haven't found any good sites. I need videos to understand because when I just read the descriptions I get more confused.

Edited by Lupy 2016-02-21 5:52 PM


2016-02-21 5:59 PM
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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming

The first obstacle to overcome is the fact that many triathletes are in-fact "adult onset swimmers."  That by itself creates a number of problems.  Not the least of which is adults tend to want to overlook the fundamentals, feeling they are stupid or a waste of time.  For example, simply putting your face in the water, without goggles, and blowing bubbles.  Adults LAUGH when I suggest they do that.  Yet, that is an absolute fundamental - exhaling underwater - that many triathletes fail to do properly which often leads to poor technique.  Losing goggles happens, but because adults don't spend time learning how to swim without goggles, they are quickly at a disadvantage when their goggles break or are lost - leading to poor form in the water.  Another example is learning how to float.  Again, I get laughed at when I recommend it.  One of the leading causes of triathletes swimming slowly is dropping their legs - however, if they had learned how to float properly, they would have learned how to keep their legs up which may well have transferred to proper leg position while swimming.  Another missed opportunity by not learning fundamentals.

Next up - adult onset swimmers that are competing in triathlon are sometimes impatient.  They want speed NOW!  Consequently, they often go out and try to beat the water into submission.  However, swimming is a technique driven sport and to excel you need to perfect your technique.  Then there is the dichotomy of having to learn proper technique while building swim fitness based on proper technique - that is hard to do and it takes time.  Time that impatient triathletes don't want to invest.  Technique and fitness are two sides of the same coin.  You need one to truly have the other.  You can go out and swim hundreds of thousands of yards, but if your technique is bad, you likely wasted your time.  You can have the greatest technique in the history of swimming, but if you have no swim fitness, you will have no power in your stroke and will be slow.

Finally there is the simple fact that an adult onset swimmer is behind in yardage as compared to someone who swam as a youth.  I began swimming when I was 11-years old.  By the time I was 13, I was putting in 10-15,000 meters per day, 7-days a week - that works out to something like 90,000 meters per week.  I swam with that kind of volume until I was in my mid-twenties.  The second day I got back in the water after 20-years with absolutely NO swimming, I swam a 100 time trial in 1:05.  Far slower than the 0:49.4 I swam when I was 24 but still pretty fast by triathlete standards.  That was ingrained technique from swimming over 350,000 meters per month for nearly 10-years.  Adult onset swimmers don't have those yards in the bank and that is a huge obstacle to overcome.

Now, to answer your question on how to bridge the gap.  First you need to develop proper form.  At 1:25/100 you pretty clearly have some technique flaws that are holding you back.  The best way to improve is having eyes on deck in the form of a very good coach/instructor.  If that isn't possible than video analysis and feedback from a qualified coach is a viable alternative that will produce results, not as quickly as eyes on deck, but quantifiable results nonetheless.  After you improve your technique you need to put in the yards.  I am not talking about the 5-10,000 yards per week I hear triathletes brag about.  If you want to get fast, you need to build to at least 2.5-3.0 times the race swim distance 4-5 times per week.  So, for an Olympic triathlon that works out to ~ 4-5,000 yards 4-5 times per week - meaning 16,000-25,000 yards per week - MINIMUM.

Finally, I regularly hear, "The swim is only ~10% of the race so I don't want to spend more than 10% of my training time swimming."  The problem is, while you can't win a triathlon in the water, you can certainly lose it there by becoming anaerobic during the swim.  Limiting your swim training to a ridiculously low volume all but guarantees you will quickly be anaerobic during the swim.  Putting in more time and additional volume will allow you to improve your threshold swim pace, making you faster, and allow you to come out of the water, having stayed aerobic in the water, with a correspondingly low heart rate.  Not only would you have begun to bridge the gap in the water, but you would also be fresher out of the water and better prepared for the remainder of the race.

 



Edited by k9car363 2016-02-21 6:11 PM
2016-02-21 6:07 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming

Originally posted by Lupy

I also don't know too many drills. I just started googling that, but I haven't found any good sites. I need videos to understand because when I just read the descriptions I get more confused.

Triathletes do WAY to many drills.  Unless you have a QUALIFIED coach or instructor prescribing a drill AND that person can clearly identify a specific problem the drill is going to improve and how the prescribed drill is going to improve it, you will be better served with additional volume.  To begin doing drills because that is what everyone else does is a flawed approach.  You will be FAR better served getting a pair of paddles and an ankle band, learning to use the paddles properly, and doing pull sessions once a week.  (NO, paddles are NOT for strength.  They were originally developed as a stroke technique tool.  I know that because my swimming coach back in the day is the gentleman that holds (held?) the patent on swimming paddles).

2016-02-21 6:07 PM
in reply to: Moonrocket

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by Moonrocket

It's that last bit that's hard. I think feedback on form is critical. Nothing beats private lessons with a really qualified person for that. Video is really helpful too. Here in CO we have a place called swim labs that I've heard a lot of positive feedback on that is 1:1 form feedback.

I also think there are benefits of strength training. That was the big difference between high school and college swimming for me.


I did two private lessons and the impact was immediate! I dropped 10sec/100y and my effort level dropped dramatically! The problem I have is that it isn't financially practical to do a lot of private lessons. I've done less than 5 masters sessions, but during that time the coach didn't give any form critiques. She just told us what to do next. Is that usual?
2016-02-21 6:09 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming

Originally posted by k9car363

The first obstacle to overcome is the fact that many triathletes are in-fact "adult onset swimmers."  That by itself creates a number of problems.  Not the least of which is adults tend to want to overlook the fundamentals, feeling they are stupid or a waste of time.  For example, simply putting your face in the water, without goggles, and blowing bubbles.  Adults LAUGH when I suggest they do that.  Yet, that is an absolute fundamental - exhaling underwater - that many triathletes fail to do properly which often leads to poor technique.  Losing goggles happens, but because adults don't spend time learning how to swim without goggles, they are quickly at a disadvantage when their goggles break or are lost - leading to poor form in the water.  Another example is learning how to float.  Again, I get laughed at when I recommend it.  One of the leading causes of triathletes swimming slowly is dropping their legs - however, if they had learned how to float properly, they would have learned how to keep their legs up which may well have transferred to proper leg position while swimming.  Another missed opportunity by not learning fundamentals.

Next up - adult onset swimmers that are competing in triathlon are sometimes impatient.  They want speed NOW!  Consequently, they often go out and try to beat the water into submission.  However, swimming is a technique driven sport and to excel you need to perfect your technique.  Then there is the dichotomy of having to learn proper technique while building swim fitness based on proper technique - that is hard to do and it takes time.  Time that impatient triathletes don't want to invest.  Technique and fitness are two sides of the same coin.  You need one to truly have the other.  You can go out and swim hundreds of thousands of yards, but if your technique is bad, you likely wasted your time.  You can have the greatest technique in the history of swimming, but if you have no swim fitness, you will have no power in your stroke and will be slow.

Finally there is the simple fact that an adult onset swimmer is behind in yardage as compared to someone who swam as a youth.  I began swimming when I was 11-years old.  By the time I was 13, I was putting in 10-15,000 meters per day, 7-days a week - that works out to something like 90,000 meters per week.  I swam with that kind of volume until I was in my mid-twenties.  The second day I got back in the water after 20-years with absolutely NO swimming, I swam a 100 time trial in 1:05.  Far slower than the 0:49.4 I swam when I was 24 but still pretty fast by triathlete standards.  That was ingrained technique from swimming over 350,000 meters per month for nearly 10-years.  Adult onset swimmers don't have those yards in the bank and that is a huge obstacle to overcome.

Now, to answer your question on how to bridge the gap.  First you need to develop proper form.  At 1:25/100 you pretty clearly have some technique flaws that are holding you back.  The best way to improve is having eyes on deck in the form of a very good coach/instructor.  If that isn't possible than video analysis and feedback from a qualified coach is a viable alternative that will produce results, not as quickly as eyes on deck, but quantifiable results nonetheless.  After you improve your technique you need to put in the yards.  I am not talking about the 5-10,000 yards per week I hear triathletes brag about.  If you want to get fast, you need to build to at least 2.5-3.0 times the race swim distance 4-5 times per week.  So, for an Olympic triathlon that works out to ~ 4-5,000 yards 4-5 times per week - meaning 16,000-25,000 yards per week.

Finally, I regularly hear, "The swim is only ~10% of the race so I don't want to spend more than 10% of my training time swimming."  The problem is, while you can't win a triathlon in the water, you can certainly lose it there by becoming anaerobic during the swim.  Limiting your swim training to a ridiculously low volume all but guarantees you will quickly be anaerobic during the swim.  Putting in more time and additional volume will allow you to improve your threshold swim pace, making you faster, and allow you to come out of the water, having stayed aerobic in the water, with a correspondingly low heart rate.  Not only would you have begun to bridge the gap in the water, but you would also be fresher out of the water and better prepared for the remainder of the race.

 

Excellent post!

2016-02-21 6:14 PM
in reply to: DarkSpeedWorks

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by DarkSpeedWorks

If you do that, you will get a lot faster. But if you get your stroke is great and nearly perfect, you'll still be limited by your fitness and the size of your engine. In other words, if you're only a 50th percentile runner and a 50the percentile biker, you'll probably never be a 95th percentile swimmer. But if you're already an 80th percentile runner and cyclist, if you put in the yards and fix your stroke, it is absolutely reasonable to expect to become an 80th percentile swimmer.

Fyi, if you want some guidance on how to choose a great coach, we wrote this up recently:
http://darkspeedworks.com/blog-swimcoach.htm



Harsh but true! I forget that I need fitness for swimming. Especially on tri forums you pretty much just hear about form because that's the majority of issues. This is probably my biggest limiter along with strength mentioned in another post.


2016-02-21 6:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by k9car363

The first obstacle to overcome is the fact that many triathletes are in-fact "adult onset swimmers."  That by itself creates a number of problems.  Not the least of which is adults tend to want to overlook the fundamentals, feeling they are stupid or a waste of time.  For example, simply putting your face in the water, without goggles, and blowing bubbles.  Adults LAUGH when I suggest they do that.  Yet, that is an absolute fundamental - exhaling underwater - that many triathletes fail to do properly which often leads to poor technique.  Losing goggles happens, but because adults don't spend time learning how to swim without goggles, they are quickly at a disadvantage when their goggles break or are lost - leading to poor form in the water.  Another example is learning how to float.  Again, I get laughed at when I recommend it.  One of the leading causes of triathletes swimming slowly is dropping their legs - however, if they had learned how to float properly, they would have learned how to keep their legs up which may well have transferred to proper leg position while swimming.  Another missed opportunity by not learning fundamentals.

Next up - adult onset swimmers that are competing in triathlon are sometimes impatient.  They want speed NOW!  Consequently, they often go out and try to beat the water into submission.  However, swimming is a technique driven sport and to excel you need to perfect your technique.  Then there is the dichotomy of having to learn proper technique while building swim fitness based on proper technique - that is hard to do and it takes time.  Time that impatient triathletes don't want to invest.  Technique and fitness are two sides of the same coin.  You need one to truly have the other.  You can go out and swim hundreds of thousands of yards, but if your technique is bad, you likely wasted your time.  You can have the greatest technique in the history of swimming, but if you have no swim fitness, you will have no power in your stroke and will be slow.

Finally there is the simple fact that an adult onset swimmer is behind in yardage as compared to someone who swam as a youth.  I began swimming when I was 11-years old.  By the time I was 13, I was putting in 10-15,000 meters per day, 7-days a week - that works out to something like 90,000 meters per week.  I swam with that kind of volume until I was in my mid-twenties.  The second day I got back in the water after 20-years with absolutely NO swimming, I swam a 100 time trial in 1:05.  Far slower than the 0:49.4 I swam when I was 24 but still pretty fast by triathlete standards.  That was ingrained technique from swimming over 350,000 meters per month for nearly 10-years.  Adult onset swimmers don't have those yards in the bank and that is a huge obstacle to overcome.

Now, to answer your question on how to bridge the gap.  First you need to develop proper form.  At 1:25/100 you pretty clearly have some technique flaws that are holding you back.  The best way to improve is having eyes on deck in the form of a very good coach/instructor.  If that isn't possible than video analysis and feedback from a qualified coach is a viable alternative that will produce results, not as quickly as eyes on deck, but quantifiable results nonetheless.  After you improve your technique you need to put in the yards.  I am not talking about the 5-10,000 yards per week I hear triathletes brag about.  If you want to get fast, you need to build to at least 2.5-3.0 times the race swim distance 4-5 times per week.  So, for an Olympic triathlon that works out to ~ 4-5,000 yards 4-5 times per week - meaning 16,000-25,000 yards per week.

Finally, I regularly hear, "The swim is only ~10% of the race so I don't want to spend more than 10% of my training time swimming."  The problem is, while you can't win a triathlon in the water, you can certainly lose it there by becoming anaerobic during the swim.  Limiting your swim training to a ridiculously low volume all but guarantees you will quickly be anaerobic during the swim.  Putting in more time and additional volume will allow you to improve your threshold swim pace, making you faster, and allow you to come out of the water, having stayed aerobic in the water, with a correspondingly low heart rate.  Not only would you have begun to bridge the gap in the water, but you would also be fresher out of the water and better prepared for the remainder of the race.

 

Excellent post!




That answer was probably better than I expected to get, and extremely eye opening! You swimmers are crazy people!

About how long should that 4-5k yard session take? Should I spend time doing/learning other strokes or just do freestyle? Also you can't bring up learning how to float w/o an example :D. I know my legs still drag too much or my wetsuit wouldn't help so much (I think thats right at least).

EDIT: So I just read your site and I'll give you a pass on float drills if you want :D.

Edited by Lupy 2016-02-21 6:37 PM
2016-02-21 6:43 PM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by k9car363

The first obstacle to overcome is the fact that many triathletes are in-fact "adult onset swimmers."  That by itself creates a number of problems.  Not the least of which is adults tend to want to overlook the fundamentals, feeling they are stupid or a waste of time.  For example, simply putting your face in the water, without goggles, and blowing bubbles.  Adults LAUGH when I suggest they do that.  Yet, that is an absolute fundamental - exhaling underwater - that many triathletes fail to do properly which often leads to poor technique.  Losing goggles happens, but because adults don't spend time learning how to swim without goggles, they are quickly at a disadvantage when their goggles break or are lost - leading to poor form in the water.  Another example is learning how to float.  Again, I get laughed at when I recommend it.  One of the leading causes of triathletes swimming slowly is dropping their legs - however, if they had learned how to float properly, they would have learned how to keep their legs up which may well have transferred to proper leg position while swimming.  Another missed opportunity by not learning fundamentals.

Next up - adult onset swimmers that are competing in triathlon are sometimes impatient.  They want speed NOW!  Consequently, they often go out and try to beat the water into submission.  However, swimming is a technique driven sport and to excel you need to perfect your technique.  Then there is the dichotomy of having to learn proper technique while building swim fitness based on proper technique - that is hard to do and it takes time.  Time that impatient triathletes don't want to invest.  Technique and fitness are two sides of the same coin.  You need one to truly have the other.  You can go out and swim hundreds of thousands of yards, but if your technique is bad, you likely wasted your time.  You can have the greatest technique in the history of swimming, but if you have no swim fitness, you will have no power in your stroke and will be slow.

Finally there is the simple fact that an adult onset swimmer is behind in yardage as compared to someone who swam as a youth.  I began swimming when I was 11-years old.  By the time I was 13, I was putting in 10-15,000 meters per day, 7-days a week - that works out to something like 90,000 meters per week.  I swam with that kind of volume until I was in my mid-twenties.  The second day I got back in the water after 20-years with absolutely NO swimming, I swam a 100 time trial in 1:05.  Far slower than the 0:49.4 I swam when I was 24 but still pretty fast by triathlete standards.  That was ingrained technique from swimming over 350,000 meters per month for nearly 10-years.  Adult onset swimmers don't have those yards in the bank and that is a huge obstacle to overcome.

Now, to answer your question on how to bridge the gap.  First you need to develop proper form.  At 1:25/100 you pretty clearly have some technique flaws that are holding you back.  The best way to improve is having eyes on deck in the form of a very good coach/instructor.  If that isn't possible than video analysis and feedback from a qualified coach is a viable alternative that will produce results, not as quickly as eyes on deck, but quantifiable results nonetheless.  After you improve your technique you need to put in the yards.  I am not talking about the 5-10,000 yards per week I hear triathletes brag about.  If you want to get fast, you need to build to at least 2.5-3.0 times the race swim distance 4-5 times per week.  So, for an Olympic triathlon that works out to ~ 4-5,000 yards 4-5 times per week - meaning 16,000-25,000 yards per week - MINIMUM.

Finally, I regularly hear, "The swim is only ~10% of the race so I don't want to spend more than 10% of my training time swimming."  The problem is, while you can't win a triathlon in the water, you can certainly lose it there by becoming anaerobic during the swim.  Limiting your swim training to a ridiculously low volume all but guarantees you will quickly be anaerobic during the swim.  Putting in more time and additional volume will allow you to improve your threshold swim pace, making you faster, and allow you to come out of the water, having stayed aerobic in the water, with a correspondingly low heart rate.  Not only would you have begun to bridge the gap in the water, but you would also be fresher out of the water and better prepared for the remainder of the race.

 




Awesome post. And most importantly, you have to do ALL of what he states. Tons of yards without proper form is pointless. Great form with no yards, is a bit better IMHO, but not enough unless you have that ingraned muscle memory from youth swimming....but it's a nice bonus to be able to swim 5,000-6,000 yds a week and be able to do a ~:56 100yd time trial, so you can work on making your bike suck less.
2016-02-21 7:14 PM
in reply to: 3mar

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by 3mar

Awesome post. And most importantly, you have to do ALL of what he states. Tons of yards without proper form is pointless. Great form with no yards, is a bit better IMHO, but not enough unless you have that ingraned muscle memory from youth swimming....but it's a nice bonus to be able to swim 5,000-6,000 yds a week and be able to do a ~:56 100yd time trial, so you can work on making your bike suck less.


Hey, this wasn't supposed to turn into a spot for all of the former swimmers to rub it in our faces how awesome they are! (sarcasm)

For you former swimmers. Have any of you done masters classes in your afterlife? Do they seem like a decent alternative to what you got growing up on swim teams for us adult onset swimmers?
2016-02-21 7:21 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming

Originally posted by Lupy That answer was probably better than I expected to get, and extremely eye opening! You swimmers are crazy people! About how long should that 4-5k yard session take?

The leaders came out of the water at 50:50 last October in Kona.  That works out to ~ 1:12/100 yards.  Those boys were likely swimming at their swim threshold pace and were aerobic during the entire swim

As to how long a workout would take, using them as an example, the would likely be swimming 100 intervals with a send-off in the neighborhood of 1:15 - 1:30 (Depending upon time of year and where they are in a training cycle. I don't know any of them personally so speculating based on experience).  At a 1:30 send-off a  5,000 yard workout that consisted of 50 x 100 would take 75-minutes.  Yes, I have done workouts like that and had athletes I work with do workouts like that.  You can adjust that send-off interval to your pace using the formula [(STP + 3) w/10" rest].  STP = swim threshold pace.

Originally posted by Lupy Should I spend time doing/learning other strokes or just do freestyle? 

I am one of the minority that favors swimming only freestyle.  Freestyle is the fastest and most efficient stroke so likely the one you will be swimming in a triathlon.  There are those that argue swimming the other strokes helps you develop your freestyle.  Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.  If you want to be fast swimming freestyle you need to swim freestyle.  When you get done with that, swim some more freestyle.  And when you think you have swum enough freestyle, swim some more freestyle.  THEN you will begin to get fast swimming freestyle. If you want to get fast swimming an individual medley, then yes, you need to swim the other strokes. That said, you should spend enough time swimming your "go-to safety stroke" so that you are proficient.  I recommend backstroke as you can breathe as much as you want which is generally the reason a triathlete goes to their safety stroke - they can't breathe.

Originally posted by Lupy Also you can't bring up learning how to float w/o an example :D. I know my legs still drag too much or my wetsuit wouldn't help so much (I think thats right at least). EDIT: So I just read your site and I'll give you a pass on float drills if you want :D.

In case you didn't make it to the "fundamentals" page on my website - http://triathlonswimcoach.com/index.php/en/resources/stroke-technique/31-novice/77-freestyle-from-the-beginning

2016-02-21 7:38 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming

Originally posted by Lupy

For you former swimmers. Have any of you done masters classes in your afterlife? Do they seem like a decent alternative to what you got growing up on swim teams for us adult onset swimmers?

Most of the master's programs I have encountered are basically a group of people that get in the water together and swim.  MAYBE someone is writing a workout for them.  Rarely is there a qualified coach on deck offering technique improvement suggestions.  I have seen a couple of programs that had quality coaching, but those are the exception, not the rule.

If you can find a master's program that has a qualified coach on deck, who is willing to offer technique instruction, writes quality workouts and understands triathlon, you will have found gold.  Sadly those programs are few and far between.

The benefit of swimming with a masters program, even a poor one, is having other people in the water with you.  You can often watch the better swimmers and learn from watching them.  Also, swimming with faster swimmers will help motivate you.  Be careful however that you are not swimming faster than your ideal training pace.  Most masters programs are training swimmers for swim meets.  You are training for a triathlon.  Swimmers, for all but the longer distances, need to improve their anaerobic swimming capability.  You need to improve your threshold pace.  Those are conflicting goals and are trained for differently.  Not saying some VO2 MAX swim sets in which you are fully anaerobic won't be beneficial, just that that type of training should not be your primary training method.



2016-02-21 8:11 PM
in reply to: #5168310

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
My USS (high school club) team and even college was more hands on instruction than any master's program I've done. (My college team had a head coach and 2-3 assistant coaches for probably ~24 swimmers for the women's team and the same for the men and any of them were happy to help). If I had a stroke question I could always stay late and work with a coach. Our morning workouts were a lot less formal and often very technique focused vs. afternoons which were very fitness and strength focused. Mornings We did video analysis and had mirrors on the bottom of the pool and even weight stacks and bungies to micro focus on small parts of the stroke. (To benchmark in HS we tried to do 100,000 yards Christmas week which was our biggest week of the year- I was a sprinter so we usually did less yards than the distance lanes).

I think one of the differences is the coaches were full time coaches and we had lots of pool time where a lot of Master's coaches are hourly and the workouts are shoehorned into busy pool schedules.
2016-02-21 8:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
On a positive note though- unlike a lot of people I did not put in very many years. I walked on to my high school freshman year swim team having never seen a starting block. I swam only HS season for two years before going year round for two years and ended up at a (not top) D1 college.
2016-02-21 8:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Everything Scott said x's a lot. Some random things from this thread. I disagree with one thing DSW (I think ) posted. There is good help out there of which your best bet is a "swim" coach. That's not meant as a shot at tri coaches. They just have more to work on then a swim coach. Depending on what you're working on and with whom you are with 4-5K yds could take from an hour to hour and half. I primarily swim alone so my workouts are quicker. But more fun is swimming with other people which can add time due to chat in between sets. IMO the best thing you'll get out of masters is swimming with other people to push you.

Edited by Goggles Pizzano 2016-02-21 8:46 PM
2016-02-21 10:37 PM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by Lupy

EDIT: Forgot to add quotes
Originally posted by AdonMobin

Dude with your pace i'd say you're already doing pretty good at race pace! How old are you if you don't mind my asking?

It looks like you could use some swim specific dry land training. Focus on back muscles, lats, biceps and triceps. A strong core also helps a lot. Also what you could try is improving your technique by doing a lot of technique specific drills to get a better feel for the water and for your form. It might help you shave a second or 2 per 100 m.

Happy swimming !


I'm 28. I definitely agree that I'm weak in the areas that you mentioned. Also note that my times are per yards and not meters.

I also don't know too many drills. I just started googling that, but I haven't found any good sites. I need videos to understand because when I just read the descriptions I get more confused.


I see you're from Raliegh, NC, I can recommend an endless pool studio (disclaimer: personal friend) plus kayak supported open water instruction not terribly far from you in Lake Norman, NC. she has a blog here with some swimmer examples so you can see some of her thought process & video examples

http://discoveryaquatics.net/site/?page_id=1176
2016-02-22 5:44 AM
in reply to: k9car363

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by k9car363

The first obstacle to overcome is the fact that many triathletes are in-fact "adult onset swimmers."  ....



Scott, I cut most of it out to keep this short.

That is an AMAZING post. The best thing I have read in a long time. Thank you.


2016-02-22 10:31 AM
in reply to: marcag

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Another +1 for the detailed response on here - terrific!

As for the run more/swim more analogy, I think a more fitting analogy to swimming would be golf. You can go to the range and hit thousands of golf balls, but if your swing technique sucks you are never going to get much better (see: Charles Barkley), and without a qualified coach it's going to be nearly impossible to diagnose and fix what is wrong.
2016-02-22 10:47 AM
in reply to: Lupy

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by Lupy

Originally posted by 3mar

Awesome post. And most importantly, you have to do ALL of what he states. Tons of yards without proper form is pointless. Great form with no yards, is a bit better IMHO, but not enough unless you have that ingraned muscle memory from youth swimming....but it's a nice bonus to be able to swim 5,000-6,000 yds a week and be able to do a ~:56 100yd time trial, so you can work on making your bike suck less.


Hey, this wasn't supposed to turn into a spot for all of the former swimmers to rub it in our faces how awesome they are! (sarcasm)

For you former swimmers. Have any of you done masters classes in your afterlife? Do they seem like a decent alternative to what you got growing up on swim teams for us adult onset swimmers?


With all the struggles I've had on the bike, I need *something*

As most have said, a lot of the masters groups I've seen aren't like the swim practices we had as kids where everyone did the workout together, with the faster lanes doing faster intervals but the same workouts. They are very disjointed with everyone doing their own thing with a workout on a board. The one I'm in now has two ex Div 1 swimmers in it and whichever one of them shows up is the one I do the workout with. The one is older and about my speed and just as competative, so we beat the crap out of each other in the pool (in a good way), the other guy is in his 20's and could blow either of us out of the water but will swim with us when we're there and stay just annoyingly ahead of me to constantly pull me, and it hurts. I actually faked my goggles coming off towards the end of a set so that he'd "drop" me, I just couldn't hang anymore. Swimming with those guys has helped me a ton.
2016-02-22 11:17 AM
in reply to: Moonrocket

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming

Originally posted by Moonrocket My USS (high school club) team and even college was more hands on instruction than any master's program I've done. (My college team had a head coach and 2-3 assistant coaches for probably ~24 swimmers for the women's team and the same for the men and any of them were happy to help). If I had a stroke question I could always stay late and work with a coach. Our morning workouts were a lot less formal and often very technique focused vs. afternoons which were very fitness and strength focused. Mornings We did video analysis and had mirrors on the bottom of the pool and even weight stacks and bungies to micro focus on small parts of the stroke. (To benchmark in HS we tried to do 100,000 yards Christmas week which was our biggest week of the year- I was a sprinter so we usually did less yards than the distance lanes). I think one of the differences is the coaches were full time coaches and we had lots of pool time where a lot of Master's coaches are hourly and the workouts are shoehorned into busy pool schedules.

I have had the opposite experience.

As a junior AGer, my summer club coach was the head lifeguard (an elementary school teacher on summer break), who had no competitive swimming background. He was good at giving rousing pre-meet prep talks, but couldn't coach stroke technique.  Most of what I learned was from watching the better swimmers on the team and trying to emulate them.  Any one-on-one instruction came from older swimmers who were willing to give us pointers on technique. 

Our high school coaches had to be full-time teachers at our school. Our swim coach was a business teacher, who coached both swimming and golf.  At least he knew how to play golf, but his major contribution to the swim team was taking attendance at practice (for which.he received a $2000 annual stipend).

I've always tried to be a student of swimming (I've had a copy of Doc Councilman's The Science of Swimming since it first came out), but never got the instruction or feedback to develop good technique.  

Fast forward fifty years and I've now got a masters coach, not only with Olympic experience, but who is a committed & passionate masters coach and stroke technician.  Working with my coach, I've pretty much torn down and rebuilt my stroke in the last year.  So even though I have something of a swimming background, in some ways I feel like an AOS.   FWIW, I'm swimming faster now at 62 than I did as a teenager.

To Scott's comments, I do think my current masters situation is the exception rather than the rule, and I do feel very fortunate.  

Mark

 

 

2016-02-22 1:21 PM
in reply to: Goggles Pizzano

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Subject: RE: Overcoming Adult Onset Swimming
Originally posted by Goggles Pizzano

Everything Scott said x's a lot. Some random things from this thread. I disagree with one thing DSW (I think ) posted. There is good help out there of which your best bet is a "swim" coach. That's not meant as a shot at tri coaches. They just have more to work on then a swim coach. Depending on what you're working on and with whom you are with 4-5K yds could take from an hour to hour and half. I primarily swim alone so my workouts are quicker. But more fun is swimming with other people which can add time due to chat in between sets. IMO the best thing you'll get out of masters is swimming with other people to push you.


I think this is absolutely true. When selecting a swim coach you want somebody who is totally a swimmer and instructor. Somebody who can identify what you're doing and explain to you how to adjust it to improve. There is a huge difference in my opinion between a triathlon coach and a swim instructor (with the obvious exception of the rare triathlon coach who was a swimmer and swim instructor first).
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