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2016-11-16 10:50 AM

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Pro
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Omaha, NE
Subject: Russia

OK, somebody help me out with our government and Russia.  What's the big deal with improving relations?

I know we had a long history with the cold war and many generations were raised to "hate the Russians", but I just don't get the outward hostility that persists with our government. 

I was listening to the news on the drive in this morning and a Colonel was railing on and on about how Trump is naive and he needs to take a hardline with Russia and do sanctions and on and on.  He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear

All I could think of when he was railing on was how many of our "ally's" do things just as bad or worse.  Saudi Arabia is quite hostile towards its people and most definitely is not a fan of the US but they're a "great ally".

I have come to the conclusion that our government always has to have "boogiemen" out there to justify their wasteful spending.  We have to give the banks and wall street trillions of dollars "or the economy will collapse".  We have to spend trillions of dollars on defense or "the Russians will kill us all".  We have to spend 100's of Billions on global warming or your grandchildren will all die a fiery death.  I'm so sick and tired of the fear mongering and perpetual garbage our government wastes money on.

I'm really looking forward to a President who doesn't keep doing things the way we "have always done them" 



2016-11-16 11:36 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Russia

I don't like Russia because Donald trump is a secret agent for them.  I saw it on twitter so I know it's true.

2016-11-16 12:01 PM
in reply to: 0

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Pro
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Tejas
Subject: RE: Russia
said immigrant is a spy for Putin. Heard that from MSNBC, so it has to be true.

Edited by mdg2003 2016-11-16 12:02 PM




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2016-11-16 12:55 PM
in reply to: 0

Master
5557
50005002525
, California
Subject: RE: Russia

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.



Edited by spudone 2016-11-16 12:56 PM
2016-11-16 12:58 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Pro
9391
500020002000100100100252525
Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Russia
Originally posted by spudone

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.

My point isn't to say is not true, but how is that different than what we do as a nation. We have corrupt politicians and we invade countries abroad for our own interests.
2016-11-16 1:39 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Russia

I think we should try the reset button again.



2016-11-16 1:41 PM
in reply to: Hook'em

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Russia

Trump knows nothing about Russia and has never been a secret agent for Russia.  I know it's true because I saw it on twitter.

2016-11-16 1:54 PM
in reply to: tuwood

Master
5557
50005002525
, California
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by spudone

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.

My point isn't to say is not true, but how is that different than what we do as a nation. We have corrupt politicians and we invade countries abroad for our own interests.

I can agree the USA and Russia are about on par with something like Syria or Afghanistan.

But then there's the whole annexation of the Crimean Peninsula.  An equivalent of that situation, would be like the USA claiming Prince Edward Island... and then sending irregular fighters into mainland Canada to tear up their infrastructure and make sure they don't take that island back.  Sorry but we're not even close to that.

And we don't poison our political dissidents with polonium or shoot them in broad daylight amongst other things.

2016-11-16 2:10 PM
in reply to: 0

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by spudone

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.

My point isn't to say is not true, but how is that different than what we do as a nation. We have corrupt politicians and we invade countries abroad for our own interests.

I can agree the USA and Russia are about on par with something like Syria or Afghanistan.

But then there's the whole annexation of the Crimean Peninsula.  An equivalent of that situation, would be like the USA claiming Prince Edward Island... and then sending irregular fighters into mainland Canada to tear up their infrastructure and make sure they don't take that island back.  Sorry but we're not even close to that.

And we don't poison our political dissidents with polonium or shoot them in broad daylight amongst other things.

Trump knows nothing about Polonium............I didn't see THAT on twitter....but just think about it.....he doesn't.

Trump DOES know about Bolognium......obviously.



Edited by Left Brain 2016-11-16 2:13 PM
2016-11-16 2:13 PM
in reply to: Left Brain

Master
5557
50005002525
, California
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by spudone

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.

My point isn't to say is not true, but how is that different than what we do as a nation. We have corrupt politicians and we invade countries abroad for our own interests.

I can agree the USA and Russia are about on par with something like Syria or Afghanistan.

But then there's the whole annexation of the Crimean Peninsula.  An equivalent of that situation, would be like the USA claiming Prince Edward Island... and then sending irregular fighters into mainland Canada to tear up their infrastructure and make sure they don't take that island back.  Sorry but we're not even close to that.

And we don't poison our political dissidents with polonium or shoot them in broad daylight amongst other things.

Trump knows nothing about Polonium............I didn't see THAT on twitter....but just think about it.....he doesn't.

Not yet!

2016-11-16 4:18 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Pro
9391
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Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by spudone

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.

My point isn't to say is not true, but how is that different than what we do as a nation. We have corrupt politicians and we invade countries abroad for our own interests.

I can agree the USA and Russia are about on par with something like Syria or Afghanistan.

But then there's the whole annexation of the Crimean Peninsula.  An equivalent of that situation, would be like the USA claiming Prince Edward Island... and then sending irregular fighters into mainland Canada to tear up their infrastructure and make sure they don't take that island back.  Sorry but we're not even close to that.

And we don't poison our political dissidents with polonium or shoot them in broad daylight amongst other things.

I guess I'm not trying got make a moral equivalent argument because Russia has done some bad things over the years, but I feel our government does a lot of the same things, but just does them in a different way.

For example we may not execute people in public, but we do use the IRS to oppress the opposition and selectively prosecute political foes while covering for the party in power.  We did unilaterally go invade iraq with a "trumped up" WMD cause for justification.  

Even with Crimea we had the US getting involved in essentially overthrowing the government or "brokering a power transition" as Obama said.  I'm not justifying Putin going in with force, but one could argue that the US was the instigator there more than Russia.  It's a little more equivalent of Russia coming in and putting in place a pro-russia government in Florida.



2016-11-16 7:22 PM
in reply to: tuwood

Master
5557
50005002525
, California
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by tuwood

I guess I'm not trying got make a moral equivalent argument because Russia has done some bad things over the years, but I feel our government does a lot of the same things, but just does them in a different way.

For example we may not execute people in public, but we do use the IRS to oppress the opposition and selectively prosecute political foes while covering for the party in power.  We did unilaterally go invade iraq with a "trumped up" WMD cause for justification.  

Even with Crimea we had the US getting involved in essentially overthrowing the government or "brokering a power transition" as Obama said.  I'm not justifying Putin going in with force, but one could argue that the US was the instigator there more than Russia.  It's a little more equivalent of Russia coming in and putting in place a pro-russia government in Florida.

Commenter on that video is correct - The US brokered a deal for the transition of power AFTER the protests.

This wasn't a case of the U.S. trying to install a new leader.  This went back years and years in Ukraine.  Yanukovich originally became president in Ukraine in 2004, via *real* voter fraud.  The people rebelled and finally their supreme court nullified his win and his opponent, Yushenko, became president.

Keep in mind, this is the guy who was backed by the Kremlin, not to mention by many of their agents who have already embedded themselves in the Ukrainian government.  DURING that 2004 campaign, there was the attempted assassination on Yushenko with dioxin poisoning.  Who do you think was behind that?  Yeah.

Yanukovich goes after the presidency again in 2010, much under the same circumstances.  Anyhow there was a lot of unrest and unhappiness just because of that election, but it came to a head when he rejected their EU trade agreement and kicked off more protests.  Civilians start getting shot by the government, he escapes to Russia, etc - you know the rest.

 

This wasn't some U.S. plot to overturn the Ukrainian government.  That unrest came about because the Ukrainians wanted to control their own destiny and not be a puppet state of Russia.  I was in Kiev in 2013; I know a lot of the opinions over there firsthand.

2016-11-16 7:24 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Pro
9391
500020002000100100100252525
Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood

I guess I'm not trying got make a moral equivalent argument because Russia has done some bad things over the years, but I feel our government does a lot of the same things, but just does them in a different way.

For example we may not execute people in public, but we do use the IRS to oppress the opposition and selectively prosecute political foes while covering for the party in power.  We did unilaterally go invade iraq with a "trumped up" WMD cause for justification.  

Even with Crimea we had the US getting involved in essentially overthrowing the government or "brokering a power transition" as Obama said.  I'm not justifying Putin going in with force, but one could argue that the US was the instigator there more than Russia.  It's a little more equivalent of Russia coming in and putting in place a pro-russia government in Florida.

Commenter on that video is correct - The US brokered a deal for the transition of power AFTER the protests.

This wasn't a case of the U.S. trying to install a new leader.  This went back years and years in Ukraine.  Yanukovich originally became president in Ukraine in 2004, via *real* voter fraud.  The people rebelled and finally their supreme court nullified his win and his opponent, Yushenko, became president.

Keep in mind, this is the guy who was backed by the Kremlin, not to mention by many of their agents who have already embedded themselves in the Ukrainian government.  DURING that 2004 campaign, there was the attempted assassination on Yushenko with dioxin poisoning.  Who do you think was behind that?  Yeah.

Yanukovich goes after the presidency again in 2010, much under the same circumstances.  Anyhow there was a lot of unrest and unhappiness just because of that election, but it came to a head when he rejected their EU trade agreement and kicked off more protests.  Civilians start getting shot by the government, he escapes to Russia, etc - you know the rest.

 

This wasn't some U.S. plot to overturn the Ukrainian government.  That unrest came about because the Ukrainians wanted to control their own destiny and not be a puppet state of Russia.  I was in Kiev in 2013; I know a lot of the opinions over there firsthand.

That is good perspective and you and I both agree that the Russian government does things that aren't pleasant.  I guess I am just struggling to reconcile the governmental hatred for the Russians, yet regimes that are just as bad or worse are treated as "close allies".

2016-11-16 7:37 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Pro
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Subject: RE: Russia

Trump has never heard of Kiev.

2016-11-17 7:32 AM
in reply to: #5205169

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Champion
15211
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Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL
Subject: RE: Russia
Chicken Kiev?
2016-11-17 11:07 AM
in reply to: crowny2

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Pro
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Tejas
Subject: RE: Russia
Chicken Bolognese...


2016-11-18 10:07 AM
in reply to: mdg2003

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Champion
6993
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Chicago, Illinois
Subject: RE: Russia
Russia being the super scary devil is something that will go away over time. Advantage of cycle of life. I know my dad still talks about how 1972 Olympics where US was cheated over the gold metal in basketball. I watched it for first time about a year ago and I actually saw it as a loss by the US. It is hard to see past old grudges.

Hillary seemed to want to get back in against Russia. I heard Condi Rice was supposed to try to start cold war up again with Russia on 9/11/2001 but speech was cancelled due to well 9/11. (I remember correctly though I think I heard that in Michael Moore's movie).

If you want to remember how bad Russians are just watch Rocky 4.

2016-11-18 10:45 AM
in reply to: chirunner134

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Pro
9391
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Omaha, NE
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by chirunner134 Russia being the super scary devil is something that will go away over time. Advantage of cycle of life. I know my dad still talks about how 1972 Olympics where US was cheated over the gold metal in basketball. I watched it for first time about a year ago and I actually saw it as a loss by the US. It is hard to see past old grudges. Hillary seemed to want to get back in against Russia. I heard Condi Rice was supposed to try to start cold war up again with Russia on 9/11/2001 but speech was cancelled due to well 9/11. (I remember correctly though I think I heard that in Michael Moore's movie). If you want to remember how bad Russians are just watch Rocky 4.

I've heard it said over and over again, but the more I watch our government the more I'm starting to believe it.  There's a Trillion dollar "big war" industry and they need wars in order to stay in business.  If we're not lobbing million dollar missiles and bombs at somebody then their sales go in the tank rapidly.

I hate to suggest that our government is actively trying to keep perpetual war going, but we've pretty much been doing that for the past 25 years and even before that with the "cold war" we spent just as much or more due to the "threat of war".

The war mongers are not trying to keep peace, they're trying to keep us in wars. 

2016-11-18 11:20 AM
in reply to: tuwood

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Deep in the Heart of Texas
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by chirunner134 Russia being the super scary devil is something that will go away over time. Advantage of cycle of life. I know my dad still talks about how 1972 Olympics where US was cheated over the gold metal in basketball. I watched it for first time about a year ago and I actually saw it as a loss by the US. It is hard to see past old grudges. Hillary seemed to want to get back in against Russia. I heard Condi Rice was supposed to try to start cold war up again with Russia on 9/11/2001 but speech was cancelled due to well 9/11. (I remember correctly though I think I heard that in Michael Moore's movie). If you want to remember how bad Russians are just watch Rocky 4.

I've heard it said over and over again, but the more I watch our government the more I'm starting to believe it.  There's a Trillion dollar "big war" industry and they need wars in order to stay in business.  If we're not lobbing million dollar missiles and bombs at somebody then their sales go in the tank rapidly.

I hate to suggest that our government is actively trying to keep perpetual war going, but we've pretty much been doing that for the past 25 years and even before that with the "cold war" we spent just as much or more due to the "threat of war".

The war mongers are not trying to keep peace, they're trying to keep us in wars. 

The Military Industrial Complex doesn't only want to keep us in wars - it goes much beyond that.  Here's an eye-opening article regarding military aid "given" by the U.S. to Israel (and Egypt, Jordan, etc.):  Case for Ending Aid to Israel

2016-11-18 12:22 PM
in reply to: tuwood

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Champion
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Chicago, Illinois
Subject: RE: Russia
Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by chirunner134 Russia being the super scary devil is something that will go away over time. Advantage of cycle of life. I know my dad still talks about how 1972 Olympics where US was cheated over the gold metal in basketball. I watched it for first time about a year ago and I actually saw it as a loss by the US. It is hard to see past old grudges. Hillary seemed to want to get back in against Russia. I heard Condi Rice was supposed to try to start cold war up again with Russia on 9/11/2001 but speech was cancelled due to well 9/11. (I remember correctly though I think I heard that in Michael Moore's movie). If you want to remember how bad Russians are just watch Rocky 4.

I've heard it said over and over again, but the more I watch our government the more I'm starting to believe it.  There's a Trillion dollar "big war" industry and they need wars in order to stay in business.  If we're not lobbing million dollar missiles and bombs at somebody then their sales go in the tank rapidly.

I hate to suggest that our government is actively trying to keep perpetual war going, but we've pretty much been doing that for the past 25 years and even before that with the "cold war" we spent just as much or more due to the "threat of war".

The war mongers are not trying to keep peace, they're trying to keep us in wars. 




While I know we do need defense running up the tab to make money just puts us in debt and takes money away from area that could really do some good country overall.
2016-11-18 1:35 PM
in reply to: spudone

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Elite
7783
50002000500100100252525
PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by spudone

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.

My point isn't to say is not true, but how is that different than what we do as a nation. We have corrupt politicians and we invade countries abroad for our own interests.

I can agree the USA and Russia are about on par with something like Syria or Afghanistan.

But then there's the whole annexation of the Crimean Peninsula.  An equivalent of that situation, would be like the USA claiming Prince Edward Island... and then sending irregular fighters into mainland Canada to tear up their infrastructure and make sure they don't take that island back.  Sorry but we're not even close to that.

And we don't poison our political dissidents with polonium or shoot them in broad daylight amongst other things.

Leave my island out of this!



2016-11-18 5:00 PM
in reply to: axteraa

Master
5557
50005002525
, California
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by spudone

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.

My point isn't to say is not true, but how is that different than what we do as a nation. We have corrupt politicians and we invade countries abroad for our own interests.

I can agree the USA and Russia are about on par with something like Syria or Afghanistan.

But then there's the whole annexation of the Crimean Peninsula.  An equivalent of that situation, would be like the USA claiming Prince Edward Island... and then sending irregular fighters into mainland Canada to tear up their infrastructure and make sure they don't take that island back.  Sorry but we're not even close to that.

And we don't poison our political dissidents with polonium or shoot them in broad daylight amongst other things.

Leave my island out of this!

Um that's MY island now.

2016-11-18 6:27 PM
in reply to: spudone

User image

Elite
7783
50002000500100100252525
PEI, Canada
Subject: RE: Russia

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by axteraa

Originally posted by spudone

Originally posted by tuwood
Originally posted by spudone

He then went on and on to attack Putin as the KGB guy who kills people and attacks his neighbors, etc.  (fear fear fear)

Fear fear fear... because that's all true.

My point isn't to say is not true, but how is that different than what we do as a nation. We have corrupt politicians and we invade countries abroad for our own interests.

I can agree the USA and Russia are about on par with something like Syria or Afghanistan.

But then there's the whole annexation of the Crimean Peninsula.  An equivalent of that situation, would be like the USA claiming Prince Edward Island... and then sending irregular fighters into mainland Canada to tear up their infrastructure and make sure they don't take that island back.  Sorry but we're not even close to that.

And we don't poison our political dissidents with polonium or shoot them in broad daylight amongst other things.

Leave my island out of this!

Um that's MY island now.

Oh. Right...  Sorry about that...

2016-11-19 10:25 AM
in reply to: axteraa

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Expert
2373
20001001001002525
Floriduh
Subject: RE: Russia
I think we'd feel different about Russia if we were in Western Europe. I was in Italy and Netherlands a couple of years ago when the ISIS (ISIL?) issue was really hitting fan in USA. The Europeans I talked to we far more concerned about Ukraine, and I think we need to err on the side of Western Europe than Russia when it comes to where our loyalties lie.
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