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2020-02-17 11:43 AM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by jmkizer

Ack, I jumped the gum a bit.  The Strength workout times are way off.
 
Saturday imported as 4 hours and 7 minutes when in reality it was 18:14
 
Sunday imported as 1 hour and 55 minute when in reality it was 23:05

Eric from FitnessSyncer is apparently in touch with BT about this. 

Could you please let me know when it's OK to remove these problematic entries?  Thanks!



2020-02-18 3:30 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

> Sunday imported as 1 hour and 55 minute when in reality it was 23:05

115 minutes is evenly divisible by 23 minutes, and right now your log is at 253 minutes (253/23 = 11).  They may be sending the same strength workout multiple times and it is added to the day's total each time which explains why that value keeps going up.

We've notified them of our discoveries.

 

2020-02-18 5:40 PM
in reply to: Matt

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by Matt

> Sunday imported as 1 hour and 55 minute when in reality it was 23:05

115 minutes is evenly divisible by 23 minutes, and right now your log is at 253 minutes (253/23 = 11).  They may be sending the same strength workout multiple times and it is added to the day's total each time which explains why that value keeps going up.

We've notified them of our discoveries. 

Do you still need this information or can I correct my training log?

2020-02-18 7:44 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

We should wait to hear back from Fitness Syncer. Any adjustments now will likely result in the values being corrupted again.

2020-02-20 5:07 AM
in reply to: Matt

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

This morning i completed two bike rides and zero yoga workouts. I don't know where the yoga workout imported from or where my rides are hiding. 

I am trying to import Strava > FitnessSyncr > BT. 





(Screen Shot 2020-02-20 at 6.03.03 AM.png)



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2020-02-22 1:44 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Good afternoon!

I'm continuing to have problems with the Sports and Strength imports
 
For some reason, a Weights was imported this afternoon (2/22)with a time of 13:03.  This appears to be the Strength workout from Friday (2/20).  I'm not sure why this was imported today?




(Screen Shot 2020-02-22 at 2.39.51 PM.png)



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2020-02-24 6:44 AM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

This morning's swim imported with the incorrect distance.  Also, it is continuing to import elapsed time rather than moving time. 

Also, how should strength workout be imported?  Should they be imported into the Strength activity type or the Sports activity type?

If they are imported into the Sports activity type, should it be the Strength subtype or the Weights subtype? 

I've seen all three and I'd be lot happier if there was some consistency to how this imported.

2020-02-24 1:09 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!
Janyne,

We will look into this - there is also a philosophical question of whether the default should be elapsed time or moving time. In cycling, there are arguments for each.

Regarding the drastically wrong amount of time for strength the other day - Fitness Syncer sent it 5 times, and BeginnerTriathlete added them together for a total. So that's why it was off by so much.

Eric and Matt are working together to figure out why that happened.
2020-02-24 1:32 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by alicefoeller Janyne, We will look into this - there is also a philosophical question of whether the default should be elapsed time or moving time. In cycling, there are arguments for each. Regarding the drastically wrong amount of time for strength the other day - Fitness Syncer sent it 5 times, and BeginnerTriathlete added them together for a total. So that's why it was off by so much. Eric and Matt are working together to figure out why that happened.

Thanks for the update.

It would be really nice if there was some consistency in the way that times are imported into BT.

Cycling imports moving time. Running imports moving time. Swim imports elapsed time.



Edited by jmkizer 2020-02-24 1:37 PM
2020-02-24 7:43 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!
While it seems like having all three be consistent would make sense, I would argue that most of the time the "breaks" when biking are because of traffic lights, etc. - not breaks we choose to take, but ones we are stuck with and don't want factored into our average speed.

While in the pool, if I have a 45-minute workout and I spend a total of 7 minutes on the wall resting between sets, I want it to show a 45-minute workout. Not a 38-minute workout. Especially if I'm doing the workout as assigned by my training plan, and then it looks like I came up short.

For running, I think moving time makes sense. If I'm doing intervals, I'm usually still moving even at "rest" because I'm walking, so that would still be moving time. If I actually STOP my watch and resume it later, that's because I ran into a neighbor and was talking, so I don't want that time included. So I think it actually makes sense the way it is now.

However I'm open to hearing other points of view.
2020-02-24 8:03 PM
in reply to: 0

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by alicefoeller While it seems like having all three be consistent would make sense, I would argue that most of the time the "breaks" when biking are because of traffic lights, etc. - not breaks we choose to take, but ones we are stuck with and don't want factored into our average speed. While in the pool, if I have a 45-minute workout and I spend a total of 7 minutes on the wall resting between sets, I want it to show a 45-minute workout. Not a 38-minute workout. Especially if I'm doing the workout as assigned by my training plan, and then it looks like I came up short. For running, I think moving time makes sense. If I'm doing intervals, I'm usually still moving even at "rest" because I'm walking, so that would still be moving time. If I actually STOP my watch and resume it later, that's because I ran into a neighbor and was talking, so I don't want that time included. So I think it actually makes sense the way it is now. However I'm open to hearing other points of view.

As I said, I think that it should be consistent for all activities. When I bike and I run, I stop for traffic. This is not a rest break, this is a safety measure.

If you want to use elapsed time for the swim, I don't think that BT should calculate swim pace.

What about the strength sport import issue?

 

 



Edited by jmkizer 2020-02-24 8:04 PM


2020-02-25 12:17 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by jmkizer

Originally posted by alicefoeller While it seems like having all three be consistent would make sense, I would argue that most of the time the "breaks" when biking are because of traffic lights, etc. - not breaks we choose to take, but ones we are stuck with and don't want factored into our average speed. While in the pool, if I have a 45-minute workout and I spend a total of 7 minutes on the wall resting between sets, I want it to show a 45-minute workout. Not a 38-minute workout. Especially if I'm doing the workout as assigned by my training plan, and then it looks like I came up short. For running, I think moving time makes sense. If I'm doing intervals, I'm usually still moving even at "rest" because I'm walking, so that would still be moving time. If I actually STOP my watch and resume it later, that's because I ran into a neighbor and was talking, so I don't want that time included. So I think it actually makes sense the way it is now. However I'm open to hearing other points of view.

As I said, I think that it should be consistent for all activities. When I bike and I run, I stop for traffic. This is not a rest break, this is a safety measure.

If you want to use elapsed time for the swim, I don't think that BT should calculate swim pace.

What about the strength sport import issue?

For the past few months I have been testing the FitnessSyncer > BT import functionality. I may be wrong but I feel like I have done way more testing of this than anyone at either FitnessSyncer or BT.  I find it both frustrating and insulting that you would change the data that is imported (run now importing elapsed time). Garmin, Strava, Training Peaks all calculate speed/pace on moving time for S/B/R. Why would BT be any different? In fact, I don't even see where Training Peaks and Strava report elapsed time!

I thought that having a way to import from non-Garmin devices/platforms would be helpful to BT.  I want it to stick around. You can philosophize all you want but people will expect for BT to behave the same as other platforms.  If it does not, they will continue to leave.

2020-02-26 6:36 AM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Swim distance from Strava is still coming in incorrectly.  2579.83 =! 2600

The duration is also reporting the nonstandard elapsed time rather than the more standard moving time.  As I stated earlier, no other platforms calculate pace/speed on elapsed time and several platforms either to not report or hide/minimize the elapsed time.

2020-02-26 7:29 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by jmkizer

Swim distance from Strava is still coming in incorrectly.  2579.83 =! 2600

The duration is also reporting the nonstandard elapsed time rather than the more standard moving time.  As I stated earlier, no other platforms calculate pace/speed on elapsed time and several platforms either to not report or hide/minimize the elapsed time.

I have to say that swim workouts delivered by coaches say things like "10x100 w/15 second rest" or some such thing. A coach doesn't care that the workout took me 22:15 to complete. The coach wants to know I am doing 2:00 100's. So importing elapsed time seems a bit off to me. Also, as has been stated in the past, I HAVE to stop at intersections and the like. Every other tracking system takes that into account. If BT is the outlier to that standard, so be it. 

I'll be honest, I'm one of the 1000's of people that were fed up with the high price of a Garmin and went with a cheaper, yet just as functional (if not more so) unit. As we know, Polar, Suunto, Apple, and a myriad of others are selling these and other units to triathletes who are runners, cyclists, swimmers, and more. I can now upload workouts to multiple sites without issue.  I can download maps and follow turn by turn directions. The whole thing makes sense to me, but what doesn't make sense is my inability to see those workouts here with the same or similar analytics as other systems.

2020-02-26 7:38 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!
Yes you have been doing a ton of troubleshooting for us.
I'm not challenging that it should work right.
But a major feature of BT is that you compared your Planned Training with your Actual Training.
If my Planned Training includes a 45 minute swim set that has 8 minutes total of rest in between laps, and I end up with a 37-minute Actual Training, that shows a deficit against my Planned Training, which means basically that I didn't do all of my training.

For Strength, Eric is having trouble identifying the "endpoints" at BT that match up with how it comes in.
Apparently there are two places it could go - the Strength category, or the Strength activity within the Sport category.

We are working hard on this and it's frustrating for everyone that it's not smooth. It's just database mapping, and I'm not sure why it's so hard.
2020-02-26 7:42 PM
in reply to: alicefoeller

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to philosophize. I took over from Ron, who did a lot of the programming himself, and I'm sure he didn't set it up that way arbitrarily. A lot of thought was put into how it was set up and I'm trying to steward it without screwing it up. I don't want to change a setting that's been in place for 20 years without thinking it through.


2020-02-26 7:43 PM
in reply to: cdban66

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!
Originally posted by cdban66

Originally posted by jmkizer

Swim distance from Strava is still coming in incorrectly.  2579.83 =! 2600

The duration is also reporting the nonstandard elapsed time rather than the more standard moving time.  As I stated earlier, no other platforms calculate pace/speed on elapsed time and several platforms either to not report or hide/minimize the elapsed time.

I have to say that swim workouts delivered by coaches say things like "10x100 w/15 second rest" or some such thing. A coach doesn't care that the workout took me 22:15 to complete. The coach wants to know I am doing 2:00 100's. So importing elapsed time seems a bit off to me. Also, as has been stated in the past, I HAVE to stop at intersections and the like. Every other tracking system takes that into account. If BT is the outlier to that standard, so be it. 

I'll be honest, I'm one of the 1000's of people that were fed up with the high price of a Garmin and went with a cheaper, yet just as functional (if not more so) unit. As we know, Polar, Suunto, Apple, and a myriad of others are selling these and other units to triathletes who are runners, cyclists, swimmers, and more. I can now upload workouts to multiple sites without issue.  I can download maps and follow turn by turn directions. The whole thing makes sense to me, but what doesn't make sense is my inability to see those workouts here with the same or similar analytics as other systems.




Chris,
We are going with moving time for cycling. Are you experiencing something different?
2020-02-26 7:57 PM
in reply to: alicefoeller

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by alicefoeller Yes you have been doing a ton of troubleshooting for us. I'm not challenging that it should work right. But a major feature of BT is that you compared your Planned Training with your Actual Training. If my Planned Training includes a 45 minute swim set that has 8 minutes total of rest in between laps, and I end up with a 37-minute Actual Training, that shows a deficit against my Planned Training, which means basically that I didn't do all of my training. For Strength, Eric is having trouble identifying the "endpoints" at BT that match up with how it comes in. Apparently there are two places it could go - the Strength category, or the Strength activity within the Sport category. We are working hard on this and it's frustrating for everyone that it's not smooth. It's just database mapping, and I'm not sure why it's so hard.

Thank you for your quick reply, and I do have to agree that data mapping shouldn't be this challenging. Yet in my 20 years of doing this sort of work, I can state that this can often be a HUGE hurdle. I guess that if your plans show swim sets including rest time, then that should be how you show time. I believe that is outside of the norm. However I haven't had a coach in forever and wouldn't know a swim workout if I was standing next to the pool and it knocked me into the water   I guess the only argument I could make is that I would be concerned with being outside of the standard that other tracking systems use, as BT is at this point with bike imports. 

2020-02-26 7:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by alicefoeller I'm sorry, I'm not trying to philosophize. I took over from Ron, who did a lot of the programming himself, and I'm sure he didn't set it up that way arbitrarily. A lot of thought was put into how it was set up and I'm trying to steward it without screwing it up. I don't want to change a setting that's been in place for 20 years without thinking it through.

Garmin import uses moving time for both bike and run.

Garmin import for swim varies by device due to the way that the FIT files vary by device. 

Why would FitnessSyncer import not match Garmin import?

ETA: We discussed this in 2017.



Edited by jmkizer 2020-02-26 8:05 PM
2020-02-26 8:09 PM
in reply to: cdban66

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by cdban66

Originally posted by alicefoeller Yes you have been doing a ton of troubleshooting for us. I'm not challenging that it should work right. But a major feature of BT is that you compared your Planned Training with your Actual Training. If my Planned Training includes a 45 minute swim set that has 8 minutes total of rest in between laps, and I end up with a 37-minute Actual Training, that shows a deficit against my Planned Training, which means basically that I didn't do all of my training. For Strength, Eric is having trouble identifying the "endpoints" at BT that match up with how it comes in. Apparently there are two places it could go - the Strength category, or the Strength activity within the Sport category. We are working hard on this and it's frustrating for everyone that it's not smooth. It's just database mapping, and I'm not sure why it's so hard.

Thank you for your quick reply, and I do have to agree that data mapping shouldn't be this challenging. Yet in my 20 years of doing this sort of work, I can state that this can often be a HUGE hurdle. I guess that if your plans show swim sets including rest time, then that should be how you show time. I believe that is outside of the norm. However I haven't had a coach in forever and wouldn't know a swim workout if I was standing next to the pool and it knocked me into the water   I guess the only argument I could make is that I would be concerned with being outside of the standard that other tracking systems use, as BT is at this point with bike imports. 

My concern is that if people want it to match their Strava, Training Peaks, etc. They will either have to edit every uploaded activity or simply not use BT.  Until this week, my runs were always tracked in moving time. Started on Tuesday with FitnessSyncer imports, the time I spend crossing the street is included. 

2020-02-26 9:07 PM
in reply to: jmkizer

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!
Janyne,
Yeah I know. If it doesn't work, it's going to be too much of a pain.
We haven't changed anything on our end in the past week, so I don't know why your run would have imported as moving time and then as elapsed time. Eric said you switched from sending it through Garmin > FitnessSyncer > BT and starting sending it Garmin > Strava > FitnessSyncer > BT. Does that sound right?



2020-02-26 9:09 PM
in reply to: cdban66

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!
Originally posted by cdban66

Originally posted by alicefoeller Yes you have been doing a ton of troubleshooting for us. I'm not challenging that it should work right. But a major feature of BT is that you compared your Planned Training with your Actual Training. If my Planned Training includes a 45 minute swim set that has 8 minutes total of rest in between laps, and I end up with a 37-minute Actual Training, that shows a deficit against my Planned Training, which means basically that I didn't do all of my training. For Strength, Eric is having trouble identifying the "endpoints" at BT that match up with how it comes in. Apparently there are two places it could go - the Strength category, or the Strength activity within the Sport category. We are working hard on this and it's frustrating for everyone that it's not smooth. It's just database mapping, and I'm not sure why it's so hard.

Thank you for your quick reply, and I do have to agree that data mapping shouldn't be this challenging. Yet in my 20 years of doing this sort of work, I can state that this can often be a HUGE hurdle. I guess that if your plans show swim sets including rest time, then that should be how you show time. I believe that is outside of the norm. However I haven't had a coach in forever and wouldn't know a swim workout if I was standing next to the pool and it knocked me into the water   I guess the only argument I could make is that I would be concerned with being outside of the standard that other tracking systems use, as BT is at this point with bike imports. 




At Chris - Clarify how we are outside the standard with bike imports. I'm not clear on that.

For the swim, we do track in yards (or meters) and also in time.
So for this graph below/attached, if I did all of my workouts, the volume graph should match the bars. (Obviously I'm not training enough!) But if my planned swim were 40 minutes, and it only counted my moving time, I'd show up at a deficit. Which is something I don't want when I'm in super training mode and making sure I run back and forth in the driveway for 45 seconds in order not to cut anything short.



(alicefoeller_s_triathlon_training_log.jpg)



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2020-02-27 6:04 AM
in reply to: alicefoeller

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by alicefoeller Janyne, Yeah I know. If it doesn't work, it's going to be too much of a pain. We haven't changed anything on our end in the past week, so I don't know why your run would have imported as moving time and then as elapsed time. Eric said you switched from sending it through Garmin > FitnessSyncer > BT and starting sending it Garmin > Strava > FitnessSyncer > BT. Does that sound right?

Correct.  Strava > FitnessSyncer > BT. My run on Saturday was imported with Strava as the source and it came in normally. My run on Tuesday came in using elapsed time.

On Monday, Eric said, "For elapsed time vs moving time, this appears to be how BT handles this" regarding a swim import (BTW, the three coaches that I have worked with all care about the distance and time time per set and could care less about the elapsed time).  My thought is that Eric is using elapsed time for all things now.  Since I've been on the trainer, I have not noticed what the situation is on the bike.  I'm running again today.

2020-02-27 6:07 AM
in reply to: alicefoeller

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Originally posted by alicefoeller
Originally posted by cdban66

Originally posted by alicefoeller Yes you have been doing a ton of troubleshooting for us. I'm not challenging that it should work right. But a major feature of BT is that you compared your Planned Training with your Actual Training. If my Planned Training includes a 45 minute swim set that has 8 minutes total of rest in between laps, and I end up with a 37-minute Actual Training, that shows a deficit against my Planned Training, which means basically that I didn't do all of my training. For Strength, Eric is having trouble identifying the "endpoints" at BT that match up with how it comes in. Apparently there are two places it could go - the Strength category, or the Strength activity within the Sport category. We are working hard on this and it's frustrating for everyone that it's not smooth. It's just database mapping, and I'm not sure why it's so hard.

Thank you for your quick reply, and I do have to agree that data mapping shouldn't be this challenging. Yet in my 20 years of doing this sort of work, I can state that this can often be a HUGE hurdle. I guess that if your plans show swim sets including rest time, then that should be how you show time. I believe that is outside of the norm. However I haven't had a coach in forever and wouldn't know a swim workout if I was standing next to the pool and it knocked me into the water   I guess the only argument I could make is that I would be concerned with being outside of the standard that other tracking systems use, as BT is at this point with bike imports. 

At Chris - Clarify how we are outside the standard with bike imports. I'm not clear on that. For the swim, we do track in yards (or meters) and also in time. So for this graph below/attached, if I did all of my workouts, the volume graph should match the bars. (Obviously I'm not training enough!) But if my planned swim were 40 minutes, and it only counted my moving time, I'd show up at a deficit. Which is something I don't want when I'm in super training mode and making sure I run back and forth in the driveway for 45 seconds in order not to cut anything short.

Again,  the three coaches that I have worked with all care about the distance (and time time per set) and could care less about the elapsed time.  If they indicate how long a workout will take, that is strictly for athlete convenience/planning purposes.  Think about it, if this was a big deal to coaches, would Training Peaks, a popular coaching platform, report elapsed time or moving time?

2020-02-27 11:30 AM
in reply to: alicefoeller

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Subject: RE: Fitness Syncer now active for BT users!

Alice, unfortunately, I am going through some issues at work, so I hope to be able to put together a more coherent answer when I am home.

Thanks again for all your work on this.

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