Christopher Columbus

I live adjacent to the largest Native American reservation in the US and we have a lot of indigenous folks who live in the city, so I typically see a lot of activity on "Columbus day", except here it's something different. We celebrate Indigenous peoples day instead. Much like the statue, the day was a symbol that has been a sore spot for the native people for reasons it appears you didn't learn in your 3rd grade class. Unless they also mentioned him putting natives to work as slaves, even selling sex slaves (as young as 9) to his men, among his other misdeeds. No, history won't change, the real problem is what seems to be an inability to be empathetic. The tyranny of the majority is not the answer to all things Rog, and it certainly doesn't make a decision right.

This and all the confederacy stuff is all the same. Some of our leaders finally get it, but it seems most of the conservative leaders are stunningly unaware how issues that don't affect them personally could be a problem for others.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbUvgfACTVI

No, they didn’t mention Chris making sex slaves in my 3rd grade history lesson. I was led to believe he didn’t stay long and went back across the pond. Maybe I need to dig a little deeper on Chris. I also thought he landed in the West Indies not on the mainland. I suppose one could find atrocities by almost every historical people, including the Native Americans who killed, raped and tortured many white people.

I am of Italian descent on my mother’s side and there was a time I’m the US when Italians were despised and discriminated against. My material grandfather immigrated from Italy in 1907. He changed the spelling of his last name to sound less Italian because Italians were so hated and couldn’t get a job. Does that impact my life today? No. This is a different time.

You seem to have completely missed the point in my OP. A statue is note a statute. It is copper or bronze and plaster and concrete. Removing it won’t change history and it won’t change people. Their efforts might give them a momentary sense of satisfaction but to change society takes more than removing a statue. Maybe if they focused on educating people about CC them the community would rally behind them and agree the CC statue is inappropriate. But going about it they way they have just pizzes people off. The vast majority of peoples’ knowledge of CC is limited to what we learned in the 3rd grade. So by removing it, not only do they accomplish nothing, they anger a lot of people.

RE the Confederate statues....I personally have no affinity towards them but many people have ancestors who fought and died under these men. The average Joe back then was not fighting for slavery, they were fighting for their home and family and to preserve their state. These days we live and move and visit many other states but 160 years ago that was not the case and a person was loyal to their state. So when the state called them to defend their state, they went to war and many died fighting for their state. Democrats seem to lack any empathy for the 1/2 million people who died in the Civil War. Maybe those people who have kinfolk who died under these men are a minority but they should not be subject to the tyranny of the left/mob who they see as trying to erase their heritage. Works both ways doesn’t it?

Removing statues is not only ineffective, it is counterproductive.

As I mentioned in OP and stated above, many people are angry and resentful of the mobs destroying/removing statues but they won’t say a word for fear of retaliation. So what happens to this “repressed” anger? How/when will it manifest? Serious question that deserves serious thought. Thing we repress have an ugly way of manifestation. The anger tends to fester and grow. If you are married you know that if you are “wronged” by your spouse and keep it buried it tends to fester and will eventually come out. Or it will subconsciously be used to justify your own inappropriate actions. The Civil War buff whose great grandpappy died in the Battle of Shilo might not say a word when the statue of Stonewall Jackson is destroyed but he won’t forget and his anger/resentment will one day manifest...in subtle ways that even he may not realize.

So a bunch of people who know next to nothing about Columbus and can't be bothered to learn any history are going to be really really upset that the statue was taken down? That's your argument? They are adults, it's not everyone elses responsibility to spoon feed them education. If they don't care enough to learn in an age where the entire worlds knowledge is accessable to every single person then it's very unlikely they will care if it gets taken down.





Didn't you just say something about "Works both ways doesn't it?". Everything thats happened in the last few months has been that repressed anger manifesting itself. Maybe that civil war buff needs to sit down with that same serious question that deserves serious thought, then he might understand records of history and symbols of "state pride" from the civil war are not the same, and those symbols have been a source of repressed anger for a lot of people who live in those areas. I know it's hard to imagine, but he's not the center of the universe. What about the black man who's great grandpappy was a slave, his anger/resentment of these public symbols of pride that he might cross every day on the way to work is worth less to you? If it's such a serious question then it might do you some good to consider perspectives other than the white civil war buff.

Let's take every statue in the country down....every one of them offends someone....and we can't have that. LMAO

That “bunch of people” is the vast majority of Americans and could not care less about CC. They know what they know and are never going to research CC. They, like me, don’t give a chit. All we see is a bunch of angry rioters destroying public property. That is NOT how we operate! I’m a realist not an idealist. The vast majority of Americans don’t even bother to vote. You expect them to do research on their own to ‘understand’ to understand why a mob of people tore down a statue? Good luck with that! Don’t hold your breath. They don’t care! And it’s not just CC. It’s virtually every historical monument I America. Last count I saw was 180+ statues or monuments destroyed including Lincoln, Douglass and an elk! Poor repressed elk! What did he do besides feed people?!

I do see your point wrt to repressed anger. Seriously. Good point. Where we differ is what to do with that anger and resentment. Looting, rioting and burning down building is NOT the answer and will only escalate matters. It is naive to think the Civil War guy is going to go to the library and study history. If he did, he’d likely see only what he wants to see and come away ever more po’d than when he went there.

I don’t claim to have the answers. When my car engine dies I may not know how to fix it but I do know shooting it with double 00 buck shot, while might be satisfying for a while, is NOT going to fix my car. And that sir, is my point in nutshell.

Please understand that the demonstrators have been overrun by anarchists who are against everything and everybody that defines America. When a triple k guy showed up at a Tea Party rally they removed him. Why? Because that was not their cause.

You wanna see repressed anger? Tune in on Nov. 4th. And if that isn't enough....keep tearing up this country and watch what happens.

I don't know all the answers either, but it sure is confusing when you say "Maybe if they focused on educating people about CC them the community would rally behind them" but also "That “bunch of people” is the vast majority of Americans and could not care less about CC." in the same thread. That's a Sisyphean task if I ever heard one.

If nothing else though it's forced the attention of every city official in the country to examine what their monuments mean to their communities. Most of those 180 statues you mentioned were removed, not destroyed (if we are looking at the same list), even those you specifically listed like the Lincoln statue. I don't like the vandalism either, but the removal of some of these statues is long overdue.

I'll be tuned in on the 4th, don't you worry.

Edited by Synon 2020-07-25 9:24 PM

In your opinion.....if Biden wins, what happens.

If Biden wins?

Rioters will feel emboldened and the riots will escalate.
The stock market will crash.
Socialism will take over.
The US economy will crash.
A Great Depression will follow

But that is not going to happen IMO. Trump will win in a landslide leaving all the pollsters and pundits scratching their collective head trying to figure how how, once again, they got it so wrong.

See, I told you I didn’t have the answers! :-)

I guess we’ll have to wait till Nov to see how people really feel.

Which statement is more likely?

1. I saw the removal and vandalism of 80+ memorials and decided to vote for Biden.

Or

2. I saw the removal and vandalism of 80+ memorials and decided to vote for Trump.


This may not be a deciding factor for most people...but it will be for some. I think replacing the “removal of statues” with “riots and looting” will be a much bigger factor.

I meant more "will Trump's base accept the results ? "

As for the outcome, my guess it's about how many people can he get into this "Law&Order" agenda vs how much people will blame him for the state of the pandemic. Numbers for the pandemic are not trending in his favor. The Law and Order thing is gaining traction.

Interesting times.

I’ve been knitting a pszzy hat just in case. Republicans will accept the election unless there are reports of widespread voter fraud. I’ve read reports both sides are lawyering up just in case. My hope is that whomever wins, wins so divisively any recounts would not change the results.

I somewhat agree that both the riots and coronavirus will be factors. Although I am not sure people will be inclined to “blame Trump” for the coronavirus. My guess is most people are not really that concerned - as evidenced by observation. Alabama has a statewide mask mandate and yet I’d say about 50% of people still don’t wear masks. That to me is much more telling than polls that say people are very concerned about cv.

I think unemployment and the economy will also weigh heavy on people’s minds. If you are currently out of work and can’t find a job that would factor in. The question then becomes which candidate is more likely to get the economy going. Trump can’t tout his 3 year track record. Not sure how Biden convinces people he is the better choice to boost the economy. Maybe he will sell people on the idea of new green jobs?

Speaking of employment...on a personal note:

After 16 months of living a life of leisure I have decided to unretire. I will be working for Dynetics on the Human Landing System. Looks like a hoot.

https://www.nasa.gov/content/more-about-the-human-landing-system-pro...

It depends. If it's the same Biden rhat has been in Washington for 40 years, nothing.If he follows through with the leftist talk he's been espousing......making Beto the gun policy advisor and AOC an economic advisor, as examples....in other words, if he is a puppet for leftist ideas, this country will burn.What we have now is basically "kid violence".....like we gad in the 60's. Just wait until the grown ups show up...it'll be ugly. They are perfectly happy to enjoy and go on with their lives.....interrupt that and watch what happens.The good news is that they will vote in unprecedented numbers.....and Trump will win in a walk. Then it'll just be more child games from unruly kids.

Edited by Left Brain 2020-07-26 9:04 AM

Good point. Goes with what I was thinking this morning looking at RCP average of polls. The Rasmussen poll sticks out as an anomaly as it has Tump and Biden tied. Other polls have Biden up by as much as 15 points. How can this happen? The biggest difference is Rasmussen polls “likely voters” and most of, if not all, the rest does not use this filter. Young people tend not to vote but if you include them in your polling, you will get skewed results.

I don’t put much stock in polls, especially after the last election where Hillary was gonna win in a landslide but the trends do seem to be an indication of momentum. I think after the debates it will be easier to for people to see and hear the differences. Big difference in Biden being 1 of 7 or 9 people on the stage and when there are only two people. I’m sure some I’m the media have already penned articles proclaiming Biden won the debates. These are the same people that claimed Hillary won all the debates with Trump.