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2023-01-24 11:43 AM

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Denver, Colorado
Subject: Classified documents
I opened the news today and eye-rolled... are you kidding me...?
Right now it looks like the classified documents are just almost everywhere... I will not be surprised if Obama, Bush, and Clinton suddenly appear with "oh, by the way, I also found some documents here and there..."

I don't want to go into discussion on Reps vs Dems, that's a separate topic, but my question is: is there anyone working there in the Archives, who is paying attention? Is there a process to make sure somebody took the docs, somebody returned the docs? When I am late with a book to a local library just one day, I receive a call, a text, mail and an e-mail, and eventually notice with fine amounts. I assumed with documents that are very sensitive and confidential there would be a very strict system of knowing who has what, and that they return it. And if they don't - then it's the Archives (or whatever the institution is) that knows who is in posession of what docs. And not accidentally finding documents in random places.

I am sorry, but I don't know if I should laugh or cry when a country that claims to be leading the world in almost all aspects does not have a system for their most important documents


2023-01-25 7:44 AM
in reply to: marysia83

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Expert
4149
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Middle River, Maryland
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Subject: RE: Classified documents

It's become clear that there is a serious lack of urgency when dealing with classified documents at the highest levels, and this is just what we know about.  There needs to be a reckoning of how we handle this stuff, who can see it when, and how it is tracked.  Unfortunately this is all going to fall on the little people who manage all of this vs. the ones who committed the offenses or were careless. 

For what it's worth, I completely believe Pence, mostly believe Biden, and think Trump is a lying sack of **** in these three instances and they should all be treated individually.

2023-01-27 10:11 AM
in reply to: marysia83

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Champion
7530
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Albuquerque, New Mexico
Subject: RE: Classified documents

In a sense, yea, classified documents are almost everywhere.  This is way upstream of "the archives." 

Outside of Washington DC, the process for managing, storing, and accessing classified documents IS pretty rigorous and people go to jail for mishandling documents. 

Washington DC is a different situation.  There are a lot of documents floating around, often less rigorously controlled than elsewhere.  Consider this speculation, as I don't work there, but on a "normal" working day for the Prez/VP/cabinet, these people may see a hundred documents cross their desks, many of which may be classified, some of which should, some of which shouldn't.  Add to this a steady steam of visitors, many of whom do NOT have clearances (some do), and it's easy to become "casual" about mixing and mingling classified and unclassified situations. 

Then, of course, these "high placed" people don't get challenged on this and know that underlings and their friends aren't going to prosecute them for these infractions. 

2023-01-27 10:16 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Champion
7530
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Albuquerque, New Mexico
Subject: RE: Classified documents

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

It's become clear that there is a serious lack of urgency when dealing with classified documents at the highest levels, and this is just what we know about.  There needs to be a reckoning of how we handle this stuff, who can see it when, and how it is tracked.  Unfortunately this is all going to fall on the little people who manage all of this vs. the ones who committed the offenses or were careless. 

For what it's worth, I completely believe Pence, mostly believe Biden, and think Trump is a lying sack of **** in these three instances and they should all be treated individually.

I'll offer a counter argument.  IMO, the "Special Prosecutor" assigned to handle the Trump document investigation should have the scope expanded to handle ALL of these situations as well.  They should be be treated equally regardless of WHO they are and it's the facts uncovered that distinguish WHAT is different.  That the AG appointed different prosecutors is a clear indication he intends for the WHO to be treated differently. 

2023-01-28 5:43 AM
in reply to: 0

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Middle River, Maryland
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Subject: RE: Classified documents

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

It's become clear that there is a serious lack of urgency when dealing with classified documents at the highest levels, and this is just what we know about.  There needs to be a reckoning of how we handle this stuff, who can see it when, and how it is tracked.  Unfortunately this is all going to fall on the little people who manage all of this vs. the ones who committed the offenses or were careless. 

For what it's worth, I completely believe Pence, mostly believe Biden, and think Trump is a lying sack of **** in these three instances and they should all be treated individually.

I'll offer a counter argument.  IMO, the "Special Prosecutor" assigned to handle the Trump document investigation should have the scope expanded to handle ALL of these situations as well.  They should be be treated equally regardless of WHO they are and it's the facts uncovered that distinguish WHAT is different.  That the AG appointed different prosecutors is a clear indication he intends for the WHO to be treated differently. 

I'd have no issue with the same person investigating all three, subject to that person's bandwidth to handle it.  I still stand on my opinions of the intent of the three, and that intent matters a lot. 

While I disagree with pretty much everything Pence stands for, I believe him to be true at his word and what happened was careless.  Biden has proven over the last decades to be careless and sometimes arrogant about things, so I would classify based on what we know now as negligent.  Trump is about ten levels above those two - he is a con man to the bone and damn near everything out of that man's mouth is a lie.

I understand the Archives have asked former Pres' and VEEPs to review their own archives...it'll be interesting to see how pervasive this is/was.

ETA:  I agree with your assessment about the general arrogance in Washington vs. the outside world.



Edited by jmhpsu93 2023-01-28 5:45 AM
2023-01-28 10:48 AM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Champion
7530
5000200050025
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Subject: RE: Classified documents

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

It's become clear that there is a serious lack of urgency when dealing with classified documents at the highest levels, and this is just what we know about.  There needs to be a reckoning of how we handle this stuff, who can see it when, and how it is tracked.  Unfortunately this is all going to fall on the little people who manage all of this vs. the ones who committed the offenses or were careless. 

For what it's worth, I completely believe Pence, mostly believe Biden, and think Trump is a lying sack of **** in these three instances and they should all be treated individually.

I'll offer a counter argument.  IMO, the "Special Prosecutor" assigned to handle the Trump document investigation should have the scope expanded to handle ALL of these situations as well.  They should be be treated equally regardless of WHO they are and it's the facts uncovered that distinguish WHAT is different.  That the AG appointed different prosecutors is a clear indication he intends for the WHO to be treated differently. 

I'd have no issue with the same person investigating all three, subject to that person's bandwidth to handle it.  I still stand on my opinions of the intent of the three, and that intent matters a lot.

While I disagree with pretty much everything Pence stands for, I believe him to be true at his word and what happened was careless.  Biden has proven over the last decades to be careless and sometimes arrogant about things, so I would classify based on what we know now as negligent.  Trump is about ten levels above those two - he is a con man to the bone and damn near everything out of that man's mouth is a lie.

I understand the Archives have asked former Pres' and VEEPs to review their own archives...it'll be interesting to see how pervasive this is/was.

ETA:  I agree with your assessment about the general arrogance in Washington vs. the outside world.

Nope, "Intent" matters not.  The law doesn't carve out an exception for intent.  The poor secretary who took classified documents home to get her work done had good intentions and STILL WENT TO JAIL FOR MISHANDLING DOCUMENTS. 

I'm curious how you can rationalize Biden's "arrogance" as "negligent" (your words above) in this situation? 

 



2023-01-29 6:46 PM
in reply to: McFuzz

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Middle River, Maryland
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Subject: RE: Classified documents

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

Originally posted by McFuzz

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

It's become clear that there is a serious lack of urgency when dealing with classified documents at the highest levels, and this is just what we know about.  There needs to be a reckoning of how we handle this stuff, who can see it when, and how it is tracked.  Unfortunately this is all going to fall on the little people who manage all of this vs. the ones who committed the offenses or were careless. 

For what it's worth, I completely believe Pence, mostly believe Biden, and think Trump is a lying sack of **** in these three instances and they should all be treated individually.

I'll offer a counter argument.  IMO, the "Special Prosecutor" assigned to handle the Trump document investigation should have the scope expanded to handle ALL of these situations as well.  They should be be treated equally regardless of WHO they are and it's the facts uncovered that distinguish WHAT is different.  That the AG appointed different prosecutors is a clear indication he intends for the WHO to be treated differently. 

I'd have no issue with the same person investigating all three, subject to that person's bandwidth to handle it.  I still stand on my opinions of the intent of the three, and that intent matters a lot.

While I disagree with pretty much everything Pence stands for, I believe him to be true at his word and what happened was careless.  Biden has proven over the last decades to be careless and sometimes arrogant about things, so I would classify based on what we know now as negligent.  Trump is about ten levels above those two - he is a con man to the bone and damn near everything out of that man's mouth is a lie.

I understand the Archives have asked former Pres' and VEEPs to review their own archives...it'll be interesting to see how pervasive this is/was.

ETA:  I agree with your assessment about the general arrogance in Washington vs. the outside world.

Nope, "Intent" matters not.  The law doesn't carve out an exception for intent.  The poor secretary who took classified documents home to get her work done had good intentions and STILL WENT TO JAIL FOR MISHANDLING DOCUMENTS. 

I'm curious how you can rationalize Biden's "arrogance" as "negligent" (your words above) in this situation? 

 

Yes...intent matters.  It's an element of a crime, along with motive and opportunity.  Not sure who this poor secretary is...honestly don't know.

I want to be very clear.  Biden is an azz.  My family (we're from Delaware, and my grandmother was a delegate at a Republican convention in the 60s) HATES Biden.  I voted for him with my nose held to get rid of the virus in the Rebuplican party that is Trump. I root for him to do well as the President, just like I did Trump, because I want this country to succeed and our citizens to propser.

If Biden committed a crime, Congress should impeach him and we'll see where that goes.  I want to fresh faces to run for President in 2024...unfortunately we have the culture warrior Desantis and, uh, nothing on the Dem side.

Notice you didn't post anything in this forum about Trump and what was found in Mar-a-Lago, and still are just critizing Biden.  What specifically do think should happen to Trump, Biden, and Pence?

2023-01-29 8:55 PM
in reply to: jmhpsu93

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Champion
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Albuquerque, New Mexico
Subject: RE: Classified documents

Originally posted by jmhpsu93

(lots of the previous exchange deleted)

Yes...intent matters.  It's an element of a crime, along with motive and opportunity.  Not sure who this poor secretary is...honestly don't know.


Intent matters if the charge is manslaughter vs. murder.  Intent doesn't get someone out of speeding tickets or mishandling classified documents. 

I want to be very clear.  Biden is an azz.  My family (we're from Delaware, and my grandmother was a delegate at a Republican convention in the 60s) HATES Biden.  I voted for him with my nose held to get rid of the virus in the Rebuplican party that is Trump. I root for him to do well as the President, just like I did Trump, because I want this country to succeed and our citizens to propser.

If Biden committed a crime, Congress should impeach him and we'll see where that goes.

Impeachment is appropriate for anything he does while in office.  It's not the appropriate recourse for what he did prior to becoming Prez.

I want to fresh faces to run for President in 2024...unfortunately we have the culture warrior Desantis and, uh, nothing on the Dem side.

Notice you didn't post anything in this forum about Trump and what was found in Mar-a-Lago, and still are just critizing Biden.  What specifically do think should happen to Trump, Biden, and Pence?

You are correct I didn't post anything about Trump and Mar-a-Lago.  You are incorrect about me criticizing Biden. Please, I can speak for myself and do not need you to attribute things to me that I didn't say. 

I asked you to rationalize how Biden can be arrogant and still considered negligent.  Those were YOUR words, not mine.

 

2023-01-30 8:19 AM
in reply to: McFuzz

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Subject: RE: Classified documents

RE:  arrogance vs. negligence  My point about Biden is that he's generally an arrogant, dismissive person (see the whole "There's nothing there, there" statement when in fact this is a there, there).  He was negligent in making sure classified documents didn't go home with him from his days as a Senator and VEEP.  I think his dismissive personality would lead to him being negligent, just my opinion.

As for impeachment, that's the only recourse we have right now as the Justice Department has basically stated they won't indict a sitting President and that it's Congress' job to get the ball rolling.  That's what we're stuck with.  Once Biden doesn't run or loses in 2024 (I'd say the chances of him beating anyone other than Trump are pretty low if he decides to run again in 2024), then the DOJ can have at it.

I was listening to some of the Sunday talk shows over the weekend and they were discussing the general mess our classified document systems or processes are (which goes back to the OP's questions).  They used an example of Mike Pence's travel schedule - it would be classified ahead of time and then shouldn't be afterwards (though we're really good at classifying stuff, but really lax at declassifying it), and if Pence kept a copy of it to take home with him even unknowingly he's breaking the law, right?

So I go back to intent, and let's add what the documents actually are, because IF you're saying that we should prosecute everyone who mishandled classified documents we're in for a long slog.  It also matters what happens once the breach is discovered.

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