Scott F's group - FULL! (Page 3)

I think the main differences between the 2 are

1.  Tri bikes are usually lighter and more aerodynamic.

2.  Tri bikes have a more aggressive position which is faster but dangerous on public roads

3.  I have heard that the position you sit on on a tri bike, makes it easier to transition to a run (regarding the muscles you use I guess)

The biggest difference is the aero bars (although the frame is different as well).  And you can always clip those on to a road bike. 

More bike talk - goodie

Laurie - you definitely had a bad experience in that bike shop, and you might want to avoid them in the future. Having said that, I've personally found a very LARGE variation in the level of service in any given shop depending on who you talk to - most shop employees are not very well paid, and service sometimes reflects that. There are some shops where everyone is great, some where everyone sucks, and most fall in the middle - some really helpful folks, some you'd rather not ever talk to! So you might want to give them one more chance, but you should

a) definitely expect to be able to try bikes out. When I bought my tri bike I tried FIVE different bikes, each of them for anywhere from an hour to three hours (granted, I was spending $5000, but the level of service at this particular shop would not significantly differ if I was spending less). This is above and beyond what most shops will do, but is not unreasonable to expect in a REALLY GOOD shop (ie: the kind you hope to find).

b) even if you can't go for long extensive test rides, you should absolutely be able to take the bike out for a spin around the parking lot. If they don't have a bike for you to try out like that, walk away and find another shop.

Hopefully you have a few different shops you can check out- finding a good LBS (local bike shop) is a real treasure and something to spend a little time and effort on. Once you've found one, develop a relationship with them, let them know you're in it for the long haul, and even if you're not dropping huge bucks now, you'll be back for service, parts, accessories, and that fancy shiny carbon tri bike in a few more years

Tri bikes vs. road bikes:

The most fundamental difference is the GEOMETRY of the bikes. This means the angles used in putting the frame together. Essentially, a tri bike (which is similar to, but slightly different from a Time Trial bike) is designed so that the rider can be more aggressively aerodynamic without losing a lot of pedaling power, and (this point is up for some debate) tends to "spare" your running muscles so that you theoretically run faster after riding on a tri bike than you would on a road bike. This is done by steepening the bottom bracket angle... from here, things quickly get technical, and I refer you to an excellent article by Dan Empfield of slowtwitch if you want the nitty-gritty. It's a long article, but very detailed and informative.

Another key difference is that tri bikes will have true aero bars, whereas road bikes will have the regular turned-down curved bars you're probably used to - people will often put clip-on aerobars on their road bike handlebars, and this is useful, but is a compromise and doesn't offer as much aerodynamic benefit as dedicated aero bars, and may also affect your handling.

In short, you can come close to getting a "tri bike" type of position on a road bike, but doing so will involve making some compromises in your position, aerodynamics and bike handling, so it can be tricky.

As I mentioned before, I think a logical progression is:

1. start with a road bike with regular handlebars
2. add clip-ons after you're COMPLETELY comfortable on the road bike
3. move to a tri bike, possibly keeping the road bike for types of riding to which it is more suited (hilly rides, longer rides, etc.)

All of these steps are optional, of course, you can be perfectly happy racing on a mountain bike - each step offers a potential increase in performance, but obviously costs some money!

And overall, the most important thing is to find a bike that fits you well and you'll enjoy riding. When I bought my expensive tri bike, I couldn't really justify it from a pure performance perspective, as it might save me a couple of seconds over a slower, less aerodynamic bike, but since I rarely win races, and almost never by only a few seconds, that's hardly a reason for me to buy such a nice bike. BUT, I love the bike, it makes me happy, makes me want to get out and ride every time I look at it, and when I'm racing on it, it makes me WANT to go fast - I can't let my trusty steed Cervy ( pronounced "Curvy" ) down

I'd like to compile a little calendar of everyone's races so we can all just check back here and see who has a race coming up. Let me know if I've missed anything, and if possible give me the actual dates if they're missing. I know some of these might be tentative, but I can come back here and make changes/updates as necessary. Looks like the weekend of June 9/10th is a big one, with races for Laurie, Barb, Mauricio and Rob...

Laurie:

• Cherry Creek - June 9th
  

Barb:

• Women's 5k Run - (June 10 '07)
  
• Funstuff Duathlon? (June 24 '07)
• Bare Bones Duathlon (May '08)
  

Matt:

• Big Fish - June ?
• Holly X- July ?
• Lansing Legislator
  

Mauricio:

• June 9th - Sprint TRI Rancho Seco CA (Goal 1:30)
• July 14, Sprint TRI Rancho Seco CA
• August 5th, Olympic TRI, Rancho Seco CA (Goal 3:00)

Robb:

• Lakeside June 9th - Sprint
  
• Go the Distance June 24th - 8km run
• Bala Falls Tri July 1st - Full Tri
  
• Summer Night Run July 20th - 5km run
• Springbank 1/2 marathon Sept 9th

Aaron:

Scott:

• Auburn Half-IM - 5/20
• Sierra Death Ride (not a race, but still training for it...) 7/14
  
• Donner Olympic - 7/15
  
• Vineman - 8/4
  

...now I'm curious. what type of ride is this? I tend to stay away from any workouts or races with the word "death" or "killer", etc in it

Ha - yeah, that's generally a good plan. Except in this case. It's a 129 mile ride over five peaks in the Sierra with a bit over 15,000 feet of climbing and some of the most beautiful riding in the world. I did it last year, and really messed up my nutrition (tried to drink the cytomax they were serving, even though I should have known better, and it completely messed up my stomach, so I was way behind on calories). I bonked pretty badly, but suffered through it in something like 12 hours of riding - the last 30 minutes of which was a torrential Sierra summertime thunderstorm - great fun! It was actually a blast... once it was over I'm looking forward to doing it again this year, this time I'm carrying my own drink mix!!

Wow it does look like June 9/10th weekend is going to be busy!  For me it will be my first, but I have been to lake a couple times and have done a couple run races, so I am not too nervous. 

Before my goal was just to finish the super sprint tri.  Then it was to place MOP.  Then it was to place top 25.  Then I decided to do the full sprint instead, and just finish.  Now I *think* I might be able to place about MOP on the sprint.  If I can hold ~26km/h on the bike for 18k, and run the 4k in 24mins, I'll have a shot (going by last 3 years of results).

I know we all say we just want to finish and have fun, but it feels good to know that you were faster than someone(s).  :D

Hey Matt

I think its just going to be a matter of putting in the miles to get your body used to the stresses.  I don't have a HRM, but I feel my heart not working as hard as it used to on a 5k run, and that my breathing is much more calm.  The biggest accomplishment I have noticed is that I am able to now slow down and catch my breath and let me HR come down, without actually stopping/walking.  It felt impossible before but it feels like I have more control now.

As for my training plan, I don't have a set day-by-day plan.  I don't like the structure of having to do things, especially when they are outdoors and depend on the weather.  I generally just try to make weekly and monthly goals, and work to achieve them

For instance, I am trying to bike 500km and run 100km this month.  So I just try to get about 125km bike and 25km run each week.  Swimming just happens when it happens until next month (when I have a pool in my building)

My biggest weakness has been running, specifically distance.  So I am still working on that, but am going to have to start to increase my pace soon.  I can't seem to break the 10min/mile mark but I am more concerned with being able to run farther.  Once I get my LSD run to about 15-20km, I am going to start throwing in tempo runs.

Hi gang. I'm about to head to bed to get one last good night's sleep before race day (race is on Sunday, but I rarely sleep well the night before). I'll chime in on HR topic later, since I think it's an important one, but very complex, with no clear answers, etc...

As for training plans, I really like having a solid plan to try to stick to. I bought a plan from Rich Strauss at Crucible Fitness which covers six month of Ironman training and uses powermeter data to drive the bike workouts (I can explain more about that another time for anyone interested).

Anyway, my plan is as follows:

Monday: easy swim/drills (I sometimes take this as a rest day in which case I just skip the swim or move it to Tuesday afternoon)
Tuesday: long run
Wed: swim (as the race gets closer, I'll add a short run here to bring me up to five runs per week)
Thurs: hard bike, followed by a short run brick
Friday: swim, run (usually run right after swimming on the track conveniently located next to the pool)
Saturday: long bike
Sunday: medium sized run/bike brick

So that works out to three bikes, four runs and two-three swims per week. I find that doing most of those runs as bricks is much easier since I'm already in workout mode, and I think it's also helpful to run off the bike as much as possible.

As for hours, right now I'm at about 16 hours per week (once I'm done tapering and recovering) and will build up to about 20 hours at the highest volume week of the plan. Of course, this is iron-distance training, and I'd be doing much less if I were training for Olys or Halfs. A large percentage of the hours comes on the weekends though, so as long as I'm willing to give up half of my Saturday and Sunday, it's not hard to squeeze the hours in (luckily, I have very few responsibilities once I'm done with work, and my girlfriend is very supportive of my training and doesn't complain too much as long as we get some quality time in scheduled around my training plan.) 

Hey gang,

 I take a "2 day vacation" every weekend from the computer, so sorry I wasn't on this weekend checking it all out. Hope you did well scott on your HIM.

Matt and Ron, your training routines/plans look great. That's a great idea about getting a feel for what you're doing Laurie. Scott, 20 hours... man, good luck! I hope to get my training that high at some point!

I'm no expert on how to pace or know where your HR should be on runs. I have never really ran based on my HRM, but I guess doing this for so long kinda gets you used to your body and how it should feel on certain runs. I'm out of breath a lot on my interval or tempo runs, but I am still feeling as though I'm in control of my form and body. Sure I am breathing hard, but I don't feel like my lungs are going to explode. THat's only when you do Sprint drills on the track

Matt, you said that your recovery run is a slow jog... I always base my slow recovery runs on that I can still talk without too much problem to anyone I might be running with. As far as any feedback on what you might be doing different, it's tough to say if we cannot see you. I would give this advice though, run with your legs under you. A lot of times people will run trying to open their stride up and put their foot out in front of their body and knees. When doing longer distance I would recommend keeping your stride to a comfortable distance when running/jogging. When you lengthen your stride too much, it puts a lot of stress on your joints and also halts some of your forward progression. Does this make sense?

Barb, I think you're doing great with your running. Just adding the milage one bit at a time. If you can do 5 to 8K by the end of June on a training run, I think you could do a 10K. I just finished my first marathon, and before the race my longest training run was only 19 miles. I was able to complete the 26+ miles (but difficult to walk for the next two days)

And finally, my outline of my training plan. I started reading a couple books on triathlon training at the beginning of this year, and just started forming a plan for myself based on what I wanted to accomplish. I generally don't take a day off, and if I do it'll be mondays. I try to get at least 4 runs in a week (incl. BRICK), 3 or 4 bike rides (incl. BRICK) and 2 swims (ha... I try to!).

Monday- If I take a rest/recovery day, this would be it. If not I try to hit the pool for some intervals of 200 to 600 in length. Try to get a CORE workout done if nothing else is going on.
Tuesday- I try to get a tempo run in, putting in a mile or two warmup, 4 or 5 miles at a good pace (under 15K race pace) and then a mile or two cool down. Sometimes get a quick bike ride on the trainer (30 to 45 min) if I feel good that morning.
Wednesday- This is usually a BRICK workout where I try to do 45 min on the bike and 30 running before work. Depending on what I have going on I might switch it up with my Thursday workout. If I can swim (or feel like it, which is rare!) I will do it at night.
Thursday- Longer BIke ride between 1:30:00 and 1:45:00. Core workout.
Friday- I try to get a track workout in before work if I can. Usually 400's or 800's. Total milage around 8 to 10 miles (including warm up/cool down)
Saturday- Long Bike ride, between 2 and 3 hours. Swim if the wife feels up to it.
Sunday- Long Run (sometimes), still trying to decide the right distance for this since the Marathon is over. Then a swim if the wife wants to.

Of course I put these on like I do them everyweek, but I don't. Usually at least one of the workouts is scratched for some reason or another. I've been feeling "up and down" lately with training. So much going on around the house, and I'm still a little burnt from the race earlier this month. I trained for so long for it, trying to keep going is rough sometimes.

Hope everyone has a good week!

I think that's a great way to approach it. Find what works for you, and your comfort zone with running. It's all about feeling good and relaxed on the longer runs.