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Separation of Church and State?
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 2012-06-05 2:43 PM |
Expert  1544    Alexandria, MN |  Subject: Separation of Church and State?I'm curious to hear the opinions here about the following matter, whether it violates the law or just appears so on the surface. A friend of mine lives here and has brought it out on facebook, I'm curious to get more opinions. The Baraboo, WI school system sent home flyers with their students last week advertising an upcoming conference for this organization: http://www.answersingenesis.org/ The conference is titled, "Using God's word for the world's questions". My friend that lives there has complained and attempted to discuss this with the school district, however they are saying that they in no way are promoting the event, just passing the info along to the children. Apparently another flyer for the event was handed out today in school as well. Is this a clear cut violation of church/state laws or not? |
| 2012-06-05 3:13 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
Champion 11989  Philly 'burbs | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? Climbinggonzo - 2012-06-05 3:43 PM I'm curious to hear the opinions here about the following matter, whether it violates the law or just appears so on the surface. A friend of mine lives here and has brought it out on facebook, I'm curious to get more opinions. The Baraboo, WI school system sent home flyers with their students last week advertising an upcoming conference for this organization: http://www.answersingenesis.org/ The conference is titled, "Using God's word for the world's questions". My friend that lives there has complained and attempted to discuss this with the school district, however they are saying that they in no way are promoting the event, just passing the info along to the children. Apparently another flyer for the event was handed out today in school as well. Is this a clear cut violation of church/state laws or not? What laws exactly? |
| 2012-06-05 3:17 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? That is outrageous! Would the school have done the same if it were flyers from a local Islamic organization? If my local school pulled this crappola, I'd have a lawyer calling them immediately. Either the principal apologizes and promises this never happens again, or he can pack his bags. (and I've never sued anyone) |
| 2012-06-05 3:25 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
| Master 5557 , California | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? Would the school have done the same if it were flyers from a local Islamic organization? I was thinking the same thing. Anytime this question comes up, substitute some other religion that's not prevalent within the community. If folks suddenly feel uncomfortable about what's going on then it probably should be separate. |
 2012-06-05 3:26 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2012-06-05 3:27 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
| Iron Donkey 38643 , Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? I say it is. |
| 2012-06-05 3:30 PM in reply to: #4246319 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2012-06-05 3:36 PM in reply to: #4246319 |
| Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? ChineseDemocracy - 2012-06-05 4:17 PM That is outrageous! Would the school have done the same if it were flyers from a local Islamic organization? If my local school pulled this crappola, I'd have a lawyer calling them immediately. Either the principal apologizes and promises this never happens again, or he can pack his bags. (and I've never sued anyone) Aces just beat me to the reply - I bet the atheists would rile a few feathers, since there are fewer atheists in public office (or at least openly atheist) than there are muslims.
Personally, having just read The War at Troy by Lindsay Clarke, I am hoping to revive worship of the greco-roman pantheon. It just makes sense to me, that we are all just playthings to a whole variety of gods with different wishes that need appeasement. |
| 2012-06-05 3:42 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
| Champion 10668 Tacoma, Washington | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? How does this violate the first amendment? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. |
| 2012-06-05 3:43 PM in reply to: #4246332 |
| Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? spudone - 2012-06-05 2:25 PM Would the school have done the same if it were flyers from a local Islamic organization? I was thinking the same thing. Anytime this question comes up, substitute some other religion that's not prevalent within the community. If folks suddenly feel uncomfortable about what's going on then it probably should be separate. Better yet, how about for the Wiccans? |
| 2012-06-05 3:52 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
| Iron Donkey 38643 , Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? |
| 2012-06-05 4:14 PM in reply to: #4246379 |
| Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? briderdt - 2012-06-05 3:42 PM How does this violate the first amendment? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Depends on if you say that this crosses the wall of separation between state and church. The state being a publicly funded school and the church obviously being the fliers. The question is, is the school endorsing this church or this religion? If so then it's clearly a violation of that separation. And the case could pretty easily be made that someone handing out literature for a religious organization is indeed promoting that religion. If someone on the street was encouraging you to go into a church, one would assume that person is promoting the religion practiced in that church, no? |
| 2012-06-05 4:19 PM in reply to: #4246428 |
| Champion 10668 Tacoma, Washington | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? mr2tony - 2012-06-05 2:14 PM briderdt - 2012-06-05 3:42 PM Depends on if you say that this crosses the wall of separation between state and church. The state being a publicly funded school and the church obviously being the fliers. The question is, is the school endorsing this church or this religion? If so then it's clearly a violation of that separation. And the case could pretty easily be made that someone handing out literature for a religious organization is indeed promoting that religion. If someone on the street was encouraging you to go into a church, one would assume that person is promoting the religion practiced in that church, no?How does this violate the first amendment? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Which law is Congress establishing here? And I'm sure you know that the words "separation of church and state" do not exist anywhere in the Constitution. Edited by briderdt 2012-06-05 4:20 PM |
| 2012-06-05 4:29 PM in reply to: #4246440 |
| Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? briderdt - 2012-06-05 4:19 PM mr2tony - 2012-06-05 2:14 PM briderdt - 2012-06-05 3:42 PM Depends on if you say that this crosses the wall of separation between state and church. The state being a publicly funded school and the church obviously being the fliers. The question is, is the school endorsing this church or this religion? If so then it's clearly a violation of that separation. And the case could pretty easily be made that someone handing out literature for a religious organization is indeed promoting that religion. If someone on the street was encouraging you to go into a church, one would assume that person is promoting the religion practiced in that church, no?How does this violate the first amendment? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. Which law is Congress establishing here? And I'm sure you know that the words "separation of church and state" do not exist anywhere in the Constitution. Of course I know that. But it's been established in court cases that you can't mix religion with government, based on a clause in the Constitution that's been defined over and over again. Over the decades since the first successful court case separating the two in the 40s, which was something about some religious school that got free transportation for students by the state, it's been established that educators, and by that I mean schools, school districts, administrators, teachers, etc. etc. etc., can't endorse a religion or a church or they can and likely will be fired. You know that line from the Constitution has been interpreted in courts many times. |
| 2012-06-05 4:39 PM in reply to: #4246440 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. Edited by AcesFull 2012-06-05 4:41 PM |
| 2012-06-05 4:43 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
| Veteran 219 College Station, Texas | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? Nope no problem and in fact they SHOULD send them out for any organization that provides them, that would be what the 1st amend was talking about, so equally send out flyers or dont send any!! |
| 2012-06-05 4:58 PM in reply to: #4246487 |
| Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? PhilipRay - 2012-06-05 4:43 PM Nope no problem and in fact they SHOULD send them out for any organization that provides them, that would be what the 1st amend was talking about, so equally send out flyers or dont send any!! As an atheist, I can totally agree with this. But the question is how many parents would pressure them to stop sending out fliers on atheism or Islam? Then we'd have a problem. |
| 2012-06-05 4:59 PM in reply to: #4246517 |
| Champion 10668 Tacoma, Washington | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? mr2tony - 2012-06-05 2:58 PM PhilipRay - 2012-06-05 4:43 PM Nope no problem and in fact they SHOULD send them out for any organization that provides them, that would be what the 1st amend was talking about, so equally send out flyers or dont send any!! As an atheist, I can totally agree with this. But the question is how many parents would pressure them to stop sending out fliers on atheism or Islam? Then we'd have a problem. Only because the school system is at large a spineless organization. |
| 2012-06-05 5:06 PM in reply to: #4246522 |
| Champion 34263 Chicago | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? briderdt - 2012-06-05 4:59 PM mr2tony - 2012-06-05 2:58 PM PhilipRay - 2012-06-05 4:43 PM Nope no problem and in fact they SHOULD send them out for any organization that provides them, that would be what the 1st amend was talking about, so equally send out flyers or dont send any!! As an atheist, I can totally agree with this. But the question is how many parents would pressure them to stop sending out fliers on atheism or Islam? Then we'd have a problem. Only because the school system is at large a spineless organization. I don't disagree. They may think it best to steer clear of the issue otherwise they feel they're just looking to pick a fight with a parent, a lawyer or the government. Then again perhaps that's a fight that needs to happen if we want to gain true acceptance of all religions and creeds and colors in this country. Hatred and bigotry are learned. Perhaps if we showed children at a young age that there are people who are different than them and gave them the option to go learn about those people, their religions and beliefs and cultures and such, rather than hiding it out of fear of litigation, the U.S. would be a better place. |
| 2012-06-05 5:10 PM in reply to: #4246531 |
| Champion 10668 Tacoma, Washington | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? mr2tony - 2012-06-05 3:06 PM briderdt - 2012-06-05 4:59 PM I don't disagree. They may think it best to steer clear of the issue otherwise they feel they're just looking to pick a fight with a parent, a lawyer or the government. Then again perhaps that's a fight that needs to happen if we want to gain true acceptance of all religions and creeds and colors in this country. Hatred and bigotry are learned. Perhaps if we showed children at a young age that there are people who are different than them and gave them the option to go learn about those people, their religions and beliefs and cultures and such, rather than hiding it out of fear of litigation, the U.S. would be a better place. mr2tony - 2012-06-05 2:58 PM PhilipRay - 2012-06-05 4:43 PM Nope no problem and in fact they SHOULD send them out for any organization that provides them, that would be what the 1st amend was talking about, so equally send out flyers or dont send any!! As an atheist, I can totally agree with this. But the question is how many parents would pressure them to stop sending out fliers on atheism or Islam? Then we'd have a problem. Only because the school system is at large a spineless organization. Totally agree on that. Heck, if there had been an Islam presentation at my jr high, I'd have LOVED to go to learn what they're all about. |
| 2012-06-05 5:14 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
| Arch-Bishop of BT 10278 Pittsburgh | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? I think most schools go knee-jerk in the opposite direction of not dealing with anything even remotely religious sounding. Passing out is not the same as endorsing IF the school does it for all comers... Whenever there is preferential treatment shown to one over another... =endorsement. So go all or none... there is no middle ground.
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| 2012-06-05 5:51 PM in reply to: #4246255 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? "Totally agree on that. Heck, if there had been an Islam presentation at my jr high, I'd have LOVED to go to learn what they're all about." They should teach about religions in schools. They shape this world as much as any social science subject does. It helps to understand why stuff like the Israeli/Arab conflict exists, why the lady in my neighborhood covers their hair and whole body in dark garments in 93 degree heat and 85% humidity, why our next door neighbor has a mezuzah on his garage door, why one of our neighbors had to cook his own food on his own grill when we had a party and served only burgers and beef hot dogs, why Christians support Israel so fervently, and what the differences are between Sunnis and Shiites... ok, so the last one is still hard to explain even after 11 months in Iraq. No offense to Atheists, but religions are not going away and they do have a huge role in our world. We should teach about these things. That's not passing a law supporting a religion. No, the class would not include the flying spaghetti monster or the Star Wars religion... Those have zero impact on world affairs... |
| 2012-06-05 5:54 PM in reply to: #4246531 |
| Sneaky Slow 8694 Herndon, VA, | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? mr2tony - 2012-06-05 6:06 PM Hatred and bigotry are learned. Perhaps if we showed children at a young age that there are people who are different than them and gave them the option to go learn about those people, their religions and beliefs and cultures and such, rather than hiding it out of fear of litigation, the U.S. would be a better place. As someone who was banned from her son's preschool because she was different, I could not agree more with this comment. I've said almost the exact same words myself to quite a few people over the past couple of years. |
| 2012-06-05 6:05 PM in reply to: #4246547 |
| Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? akustix - 2012-06-05 6:14 PM I think most schools go knee-jerk in the opposite direction of not dealing with anything even remotely religious sounding. Passing out is not the same as endorsing IF the school does it for all comers... Whenever there is preferential treatment shown to one over another... =endorsement. So go all or none... there is no middle ground. Yes, let's let the children take home flyers for the Westboro Baptist Ministy, Scientology, Wicca, etc. because that will teach them about all sorts of different beliefs. I don't know about you guys and gals, but growing up, we had Global Studies in 8th grade Social Studies class. We learned about the major religions of the world and their impact on politics. It wasn't inflammatory, it wasn't partisan, and we sure as heck didn't need partisan religious flyers being sent home with us to "teach" us about different religions. I use "teach" in quotes because partisan flyers don't "teach" they "preach." ...and that just aint right. btw, akustix, I agree, there is no middle ground. There's no place for religious (or anti-religious) flyers in public schools. |
| 2012-06-05 6:12 PM in reply to: #4246585 |
| Expert 1566 Prattville Insane Asylum San Antonio | Subject: RE: Separation of Church and State? tealeaf - 2012-06-05 5:54 PM mr2tony - 2012-06-05 6:06 PM Hatred and bigotry are learned. Perhaps if we showed children at a young age that there are people who are different than them and gave them the option to go learn about those people, their religions and beliefs and cultures and such, rather than hiding it out of fear of litigation, the U.S. would be a better place. As someone who was banned from her son's preschool because she was different, I could not agree more with this comment. I've said almost the exact same words myself to quite a few people over the past couple of years. You have to be kidding me??? I cannot believe this happened to you! I just don't see how your personal life affects their preschool. That is just ridiculous! |
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