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20 minute FTP Test
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 2014-11-21 12:46 PM |
Extreme Veteran  1018 |  Subject: 20 minute FTP TestGetting my hands on a Powertap and want to start training with power. I don't have a flat road around me that isn't littered with cars, stop lights and signs. Plus the weather is not going to be great this weekend. I do have a trainer (Cycleops Jet Fluid Pro) and loud sound system. If I establish this FTP and zones on the trainer, it should be the same on the road right? I have some winter workouts for power training that I want to do. Then I can just stay in those established zones when I hit the roads. Power is power regardless of where it is. Right? |
| 2014-11-21 1:07 PM in reply to: GAUG3 |
Champion 7136     Knoxville area | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Zero your torque and have fun. |
| 2014-11-21 1:08 PM in reply to: GAUG3 |
| Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Yes. You may see some subtle differences, especially if there are temperature differences between where you ride your trainer and where you ride outside. IOW, if it's super hot in your garage while on your trainer, you may put out less power than you do on the road. Don't get too caught up with FTP. While it is a good guide, it's really not that important. After a while, you just start tweaking your workouts based on if your previous workouts were too easy or too hard. The beauty of power is it gives you all the data to look back on. You can see if you faded badly towards the end, or if you had too much left in the tank and poured on extra power. I've been using power for almost 5 years now. I rarely do a 20 minute test. The only times I do is because I have a time trial coming up that is around the 20-30' time and I want to dial in my pacing. I don't actually do a 20' test to determine my FTP or drive my workouts. I mainly let my workout results drive my workouts. |
| 2014-11-21 2:29 PM in reply to: GAUG3 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by GAUG3 Getting my hands on a Powertap and want to start training with power. I don't have a flat road around me that isn't littered with cars, stop lights and signs. Plus the weather is not going to be great this weekend. I do have a trainer (Cycleops Jet Fluid Pro) and loud sound system. If I establish this FTP and zones on the trainer, it should be the same on the road right? I have some winter workouts for power training that I want to do. Then I can just stay in those established zones when I hit the roads. Power is power regardless of where it is. Right? They may be different on the road for a number of reasons, but if you start out doing it inside on the trainer and are consistent with the zones set from the first test...and retest often enough to TEST WELL and also recalibrate as fitness changes, then when you go outside you'll know right away if somethign seems wrong. Basically you'll start to calibrate yoru RPE (perceived exertion) with set zones from indoor training. |
| 2014-11-21 8:24 PM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Pro 6582 Melbourne FL Gold member | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by AdventureBear Originally posted by GAUG3 Getting my hands on a Powertap and want to start training with power. I don't have a flat road around me that isn't littered with cars, stop lights and signs. Plus the weather is not going to be great this weekend. I do have a trainer (Cycleops Jet Fluid Pro) and loud sound system. If I establish this FTP and zones on the trainer, it should be the same on the road right? I have some winter workouts for power training that I want to do. Then I can just stay in those established zones when I hit the roads. Power is power regardless of where it is. Right? They may be different on the road for a number of reasons, but if you start out doing it inside on the trainer and are consistent with the zones set from the first test...and retest often enough to TEST WELL and also recalibrate as fitness changes, then when you go outside you'll know right away if somethign seems wrong. Basically you'll start to calibrate yoru RPE (perceived exertion) with set zones from indoor training. My key right there. I don't use power on the road but use VP on the trainer. I track HR when I ride outside because I can (I know my HR LT). But mostly its all RPE outside. Except in races, I find RPE goes out the door on race day and HR keeps me in check. I've had my eye on several PT on eBay but haven't pulled the trigger yet. |
| 2014-11-22 12:52 PM in reply to: Jason N |
Regular 606 Portland, Oregon | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by Jason N Don't get too caught up with FTP. While it is a good guide, it's really not that important. After a while, you just start tweaking your workouts based on if your previous workouts were too easy or too hard. The beauty of power is it gives you all the data to look back on. You can see if you faded badly towards the end, or if you had too much left in the tank and poured on extra power. I've been using power for almost 5 years now. I rarely do a 20 minute test. The only times I do is because I have a time trial coming up that is around the 20-30' time and I want to dial in my pacing. I don't actually do a 20' test to determine my FTP or drive my workouts. I mainly let my workout results drive my workouts. I have never used a PM, but am getting one soon. Reading through Allen and Coggan's book, they obviously completely disagree with you here and plainly mandates somewhat regular FTP tests to reset power zones. Could you provide more explanation for your philosophy? To me (which is largely influenced by Allen/Coggan), your way seems like a recipe for plateau. I would assume that you would hit that level where your workouts become tough enough that you settle and no longer push the bar higher. OTOH, you may have certain workouts that you (perhaps unconsciously) use as de facto FTP tests to gauge your current fitness as a hint to bump everything up? |
| 2014-11-22 1:09 PM in reply to: GAUG3 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by GAUG3 Power is power regardless of where it is. Right? Many people will do better on a 20 minute test outdoor rather than indoor Many people will do better on their road bike than their tri bike Some will do better on a slight climb than in flats Remember that a 20 min test is an approximation of FTP. How good the approximate is depends on the protocol you use. The 95% of 20' overestimates many people So if you do a 20 min test, outdoor, on a road bike, slight hill, and then try that FTP indoor in aero on a trainer and it can be way off and your training compromised Ideally, test as you will train. But Realize the numbers are estimates. How important is an accurate number ? If you plan to ride a lot at threshold, a more accurate number would be preferable. If you plan to ride very easy and/or very hard (a la polarized), probably need less accuracy Either way, you can refine the number as you train. Also remember that your first test will be a learning experience. Many people get it wrong the first tme because of pacing or others Correlation between RPE and power is a great idea. For some a HR helps a lot here. Many are not great at RPE The comment on zeroing your PM. Very important. Nothing worst than busting yourself just to find out the number is uncertain. The sufferfest RubberGlove video helps a bit. |
| 2014-11-22 1:18 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by dfroelich you may have certain workouts that you (perhaps unconsciously) use as de facto FTP tests to gauge your current fitness as a hint to bump everything up? I won't answer for Jason, but I do know a lot of very experienced people with some very impressive bike splits that never test and can tell you their FTP based on their workouts. Lots of tools out there to help with this Me personally I test now and then and then I correlate those numbers with key workouts. It also allows to set more accurate race targets than somethings as silly as 68% of 95% of a 20min test for IM. Edited by marcag 2014-11-22 1:19 PM |
| 2014-11-22 1:48 PM in reply to: marcag |
Regular 606 Portland, Oregon | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by dfroelich you may have certain workouts that you (perhaps unconsciously) use as de facto FTP tests to gauge your current fitness as a hint to bump everything up? I won't answer for Jason, but I do know a lot of very experienced people with some very impressive bike splits that never test and can tell you their FTP based on their workouts. Lots of tools out there to help with this Me personally I test now and then and then I correlate those numbers with key workouts. It also allows to set more accurate race targets than somethings as silly as 68% of 95% of a 20min test for IM. I totally understand that. 95% of a 20 minute effort is obviously not the only way to estimate FTP. I am assuming that either TP or golden cheetah (both?) would give you an FTP based on any single ride you give it. The choice of testing protocol (however strict/loose it may be) isn't my really my question. I am curious as to how you can set appropriate zones for a workout without some starting base # (FTP). And if those workout zones are based on what you have been doing lately, how do you know when to bump those up if not with a hard all out test? |
| 2014-11-22 2:40 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by dfroelich I am curious as to how you can set appropriate zones for a workout without some starting base # (FTP). And if those workout zones are based on what you have been doing lately, how do you know when to bump those up if not with a hard all out test? I have seen several ways people know their FTP has improved. Unless you formally test it, you are basically saying "I *think* my FTP is here" I have seen people do things like 2x20min at 95%, a typical, yet less trendy, workout. This time they do 95% for the first and a few watts higher on the second. If successful, next time round they replace the 95 with their previous 2nd interval. Keep on upping this and when you are now doing 2x20min at 102-105%, your FTP is probably up. If you want you can then use the 2x20 protocol, which is also an estimate I know people that look at their VO2 intervals to exhaustion. If you can do them further, either your FTP or Anaerobic work capacity has improved. You can then try to figure out how much I know people that look at their "best x minute" power charts and if they see they are right higher power, they might decide to adjust their FTP You can let s/w like Golden cheetah do it for you but unless you have true "all out efforts" in there, the FTP will be understated. NP for a spirited 1 hour ride. There are other ways, same thing, they give an indication that FTP has improved. Or they may actually show that FTP measured was inaccurate. But I do believe you need to start with a test to set a base/starting point. Edited by marcag 2014-11-22 2:42 PM |
| 2014-11-22 3:58 PM in reply to: marcag |
Regular 606 Portland, Oregon | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by dfroelich I am curious as to how you can set appropriate zones for a workout without some starting base # (FTP). And if those workout zones are based on what you have been doing lately, how do you know when to bump those up if not with a hard all out test? I have seen several ways people know their FTP has improved. Unless you formally test it, you are basically saying "I *think* my FTP is here" I have seen people do things like 2x20min at 95%, a typical, yet less trendy, workout. This time they do 95% for the first and a few watts higher on the second. If successful, next time round they replace the 95 with their previous 2nd interval. Keep on upping this and when you are now doing 2x20min at 102-105%, your FTP is probably up. If you want you can then use the 2x20 protocol, which is also an estimate I know people that look at their VO2 intervals to exhaustion. If you can do them further, either your FTP or Anaerobic work capacity has improved. You can then try to figure out how much I know people that look at their "best x minute" power charts and if they see they are right higher power, they might decide to adjust their FTP You can let s/w like Golden cheetah do it for you but unless you have true "all out efforts" in there, the FTP will be understated. NP for a spirited 1 hour ride. There are other ways, same thing, they give an indication that FTP has improved. Or they may actually show that FTP measured was inaccurate. But I do believe you need to start with a test to set a base/starting point. All of those workouts sound like stand-ins for a FTP test. They are all pretty hard and sustained efforts that can be extrapolated to max 1 hour power, FTP. If those are the type of workouts that Jason was referring to when he said: Originally posted by Jason N I mainly let my workout results drive my workouts. , fine. I read it differently. I may have misinterpreted completely, and so before I risk doing that anymore...I hope he clarifies that a bit more. |
| 2014-11-22 4:32 PM in reply to: marcag |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by dfroelich you may have certain workouts that you (perhaps unconsciously) use as de facto FTP tests to gauge your current fitness as a hint to bump everything up? I won't answer for Jason, but I do know a lot of very experienced people with some very impressive bike splits that never test and can tell you their FTP based on their workouts. Lots of tools out there to help with this Me personally I test now and then and then I correlate those numbers with key workouts. It also allows to set more accurate race targets than somethings as silly as 68% of 95% of a 20min test for IM. I think you're approac is great. FTP is representative of how much power you produce at an aerobic level...pretty key. How and if you decide to measure it or look for it is up to the individual. It appears that some folks are confusing FTP with a 20 minute test? FTP, Threshold, lactiate threshold, anaerobic threshold, critical power are all fundamental concepts in exercise physiology that are vital for a well-versed coach or athlete to be familiar with it. If people are doing well without knowing it or measuring it it's likely that their intuition is still reflecting these concepts perhaps learned from someone more experienced in the sport that they trained with. Many ways to skip a cat. Google "the 7 deadly sins" by Alex Simmons for a great discussion on ways of determining FTP |
| 2014-11-22 4:38 PM in reply to: marcag |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by dfroelich I am curious as to how you can set appropriate zones for a workout without some starting base # (FTP). And if those workout zones are based on what you have been doing lately, how do you know when to bump those up if not with a hard all out test? I have seen several ways people know their FTP has improved. Unless you formally test it, you are basically saying "I *think* my FTP is here" I have seen people do things like 2x20min at 95%, a typical, yet less trendy, workout. This time they do 95% for the first and a few watts higher on the second. If successful, next time round they replace the 95 with their previous 2nd interval. Keep on upping this and when you are now doing 2x20min at 102-105%, your FTP is probably up. If you want you can then use the 2x20 protocol, which is also an estimate I know people that look at their VO2 intervals to exhaustion. If you can do them further, either your FTP or Anaerobic work capacity has improved. You can then try to figure out how much I know people that look at their "best x minute" power charts and if they see they are right higher power, they might decide to adjust their FTP You can let s/w like Golden cheetah do it for you but unless you have true "all out efforts" in there, the FTP will be understated. NP for a spirited 1 hour ride. There are other ways, same thing, they give an indication that FTP has improved. Or they may actually show that FTP measured was inaccurate. But I do believe you need to start with a test to set a base/starting point. I agree...all of what you just described..the variety of ways...are just different ways of solving for "X". an individuals power profile curve follows a general equation of either linear or exponential power decay. You don't have to know the math to solve the equation, but your description of nudging up teh duration/or distance of Vo2 zones is an example of recognizing that 1 variable has changed, so recalibrate the equation to get your updated FTP. Some riders & coaches can be elitist & exclusive about this sort of thing, which IMO is a poor attitude and reflects an insecure ego or lack of knowledge. 20 min FTP test for a beginner with Power is totally valid and legitimate way to get started with power training and setting zones. probably 99.5% of coaches and athletes started with this or something very much like it. Coggan & Allen have a ton of experirence in the lab, publishing papers, testing athletes, professional racing and working with athletes of all levels. Why reinvent the wheel? Use what they have developed, see if you like it and grow with it as your knowledge grows. power training is for everybody . |
| 2014-11-22 4:41 PM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test |
| 2014-11-22 6:24 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 5722 | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by AdventureBear 20 min FTP test for a beginner with Power is totally valid and legitimate way to get started with power training and setting zones. probably 99.5% of coaches and athletes started with this or something very much like it. Coggan & Allen have a ton of experirence in the lab, publishing papers, testing athletes, professional racing and working with athletes of all levels. Why reinvent the wheel? Use what they have developed, see if you like it and grow with it as your knowledge grows. power training is for everybody . One problem is there are at least 3 versions of the 20 minute test out there a) 20 minute test and take a percentage (95% I believe is common b) 20 minute test but before that do an effort, approx 5 min all out. Take a percentage of the 20 minute. Again 95% is common c) 20 minute test on one day with a shorter (3-5min) test on another day IME, c) gives the best results I 10001% agree power training IS for everyone. Edited by marcag 2014-11-22 6:36 PM |
| 2014-11-22 8:26 PM in reply to: marcag |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by AdventureBear 20 min FTP test for a beginner with Power is totally valid and legitimate way to get started with power training and setting zones. probably 99.5% of coaches and athletes started with this or something very much like it. Coggan & Allen have a ton of experirence in the lab, publishing papers, testing athletes, professional racing and working with athletes of all levels. Why reinvent the wheel? Use what they have developed, see if you like it and grow with it as your knowledge grows. power training is for everybody . One problem is there are at least 3 versions of the 20 minute test out there a) 20 minute test and take a percentage (95% I believe is common b) 20 minute test but before that do an effort, approx 5 min all out. Take a percentage of the 20 minute. Again 95% is common c) 20 minute test on one day with a shorter (3-5min) test on another day IME, c) gives the best results I 10001% agree power training IS for everyone. They are all valid and all trying to zero in on aerobic ability...with experience an individual will learn which one reflects their abilities best. Each of what you describe has benefits & problems. a & b wil give 2 different numbers for the same test b/c b is pre-exhausting anaerobic stores, so the 95% of 20 min is more reflective of aerobic stores a is sometimes done as 93% of the 20 min effort. c is testing two tests that both have aerobic & anaerobic components. "subtracting" the short from the long leaves mostly aerobic remaning and is likely lower than the 95% of the 20min test...possibly closer to a 93% of 20 min. As they say training is testing and testing is training so try them all. |
| 2014-11-22 9:46 PM in reply to: AdventureBear |
Extreme Veteran 1018 | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test So freaking much to digest! I love it though. Thanks everybody. I'm just glad to finally jump on the power train. I've done HR for several years. Now to put the other piece of the puzzle in place. |
| 2014-11-23 8:57 AM in reply to: marcag |
Expert 2355 Madison, Wisconsin | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by marcag Originally posted by AdventureBear 20 min FTP test for a beginner with Power is totally valid and legitimate way to get started with power training and setting zones. probably 99.5% of coaches and athletes started with this or something very much like it. Coggan & Allen have a ton of experirence in the lab, publishing papers, testing athletes, professional racing and working with athletes of all levels. Why reinvent the wheel? Use what they have developed, see if you like it and grow with it as your knowledge grows. power training is for everybody . One problem is there are at least 3 versions of the 20 minute test out there a) 20 minute test and take a percentage (95% I believe is common b) 20 minute test but before that do an effort, approx 5 min all out. Take a percentage of the 20 minute. Again 95% is common c) 20 minute test on one day with a shorter (3-5min) test on another day IME, c) gives the best results I 10001% agree power training IS for everyone. These are all valid tests and it is important to note that whichever test you choose, to use that same test next time. Replicate the warmup, time of day, etc. The more you replicate the more accurate the result will be. I still believe that racing is the best form of testing. It's the actual environment you will use and can make training numbers more race specific. However it usually takes a few years of racing with power and of the same distance to find trends and data that can give you good data to grab from. |
| 2014-11-23 10:33 AM in reply to: bcagle25 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: 20 minute FTP Test Originally posted by bcagle25 These are all valid tests and it is important to note that whichever test you choose, to use that same test next time. Replicate the warmup, time of day, etc. The more you replicate the more accurate the result will be. I still believe that racing is the best form of testing. It's the actual environment you will use and can make training numbers more race specific. However it usually takes a few years of racing with power and of the same distance to find trends and data that can give you good data to grab from. i can't tell you how often my athletes have been happily using power all year and for race day the PM gives out. 2 are quarks, 1 was a power tap. ugh. |
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