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Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video)
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| General Discussion | Triathlon Talk » Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) | Rss Feed  |
 2007-03-08 3:37 AM |
Veteran  173   S.E Asia |  Subject: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video)Hi all, Not sure if I should post this here or in the injuries forum. I've got tendonitis in my right shoulder, arrghhh!!!  I've stopped swimming and am icing the shoulder and taking Ibuprofen. The problem must be in my technique I don't have access to a swim coach or masters where I'm currently living. Does anyone want to have a stab at what's wrong with my stroke? The second vid you can see I cross my centerline occasionally, if that's it, what is a good drill to stop doing that? Beanster  http://youtube.com/watch?v=oCv1tI1-5Us http://youtube.com/watch?v=P4M_kOLFeYM&mode=related&search= (The videos are a bit grainy and bouncy  , sorry!)Edited by Beanster 2007-03-08 3:39 AM |
| 2007-03-08 7:23 AM in reply to: #715609 |
Giver 18427   | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) I can't watch youtube videos at work, but dollars to donuts it's one of two issues (or a combination). Looking at your logs, you've increased your swim distance a bit in the last 4 weeks. A montha go, you were generally swimming 1000-2000 meters a session. In the last 4 weeks, you've upped that to 2000-3000 meters a session. So it could be a matter of simply increasing too quickly. When it comes to technique, most impingement issues (which is what your tendonitis probably is) are caused by swimming too flat in the water. When you swim flat, your shoulder capsule takes most of the stress. If you roll more, you'll distribute a lot of that stress to your lats and core. I'll look at the video when I get home tonight. |
| 2007-03-08 7:48 AM in reply to: #715609 |
Master 1670 Harvard, Illinois | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) It looks as though after your hands enter the water and you extend them you cross them over your center line. Your right arm is going towards the left side of your body. Keep your hands in front of your shoulders. I'm sure others might see some other things wrong as well but this stood out to me. Start to incorporate some strength training into your training and that may begin to help relieve you of some pain. An exercise I find to be very helpful is the side lying lateral. Lie on one side. Place a dumbbell in your free hand. Put your hand down by your hip and raise to a 45 degree angle. This will work all of your rotator muscles. If you have stronger shoulders miscues within your stroke won' t cause you much pain. |
| 2007-03-08 8:14 AM in reply to: #715609 |
Wife, Mother, Friend. 2457 South | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) whoa, there's a lot of swimming stuff on youtube- I need to make time to watch them! Looks like your head isn't rotating well to the left that I can see. It looks like it's coming up, cricking your neck instead of rotating? It's hard to tell when Tigger holds the video camera Looks like your arms are crossing the midline too. Swim slower and focus on form. |
| 2007-03-08 8:22 AM in reply to: #715706 |
Veteran 173 S.E Asia | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) Rowdy - 2007-03-08 8:48 PM It looks as though after your hands enter the water and you extend them you cross them over your center line. Your right arm is going towards the left side of your body. Keep your hands in front of your shoulders. I'm sure others might see some other things wrong as well but this stood out to me. Start to incorporate some strength training into your training and that may begin to help relieve you of some pain. An exercise I find to be very helpful is the side lying lateral. Lie on one side. Place a dumbbell in your free hand. Put your hand down by your hip and raise to a 45 degree angle. This will work all of your rotator muscles. If you have stronger shoulders miscues within your stroke won' t cause you much pain. Rowdy, Thanks for the advice. You say keep your hands in front of your shoulders, that's easier said than done!  Is there a drill or easy way to know if my arm is straight, should the upper part of my arm stay in contact with the side of my head? |
| 2007-03-08 8:44 AM in reply to: #715755 |
Member 35 Vancouver, BC | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) Do finger tip drag drill. Classic case of overextension through the recovery. And concentrate more of the under water of each stroke...your strokes look a little empty and seem to be lacking in the "pull" department. But first work on the above^ |
| 2007-03-08 8:47 AM in reply to: #715609 |
| over a barrier | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) You've got some cross over going on in both arms...looked like the right arm mostly |
| 2007-03-08 8:53 AM in reply to: #715609 |
Regular 80 Now: Tempe, AZ Home town: Chi town | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) just like the other guys said, your crossing the center line of you body. when you raise your arm out of the water and reach forward, think of an imaginary line in the center/middle of your body, your left hand should never reach over to the right as your right hand should never reach over to the left. if you watch the video from the front, you will notice that your hands cross over which puts extra strain on your shoulders. strengthen your tricepts, get some bungees and there are exercises that you can do. good drills are catch-up drill, where you pull one arm at a time while the other hand is in stream line position. I hope I haven't confused you more. http://www.mvm.org/workouts-drills.php Catch-Up Drill When swimming Full Catchup freestyle, pull with one arm at a time and touch your hands in a streamlined position out front between each alternating arm stroke. Keep your extended hands about 8 inches under the surface of the water for improved body position. Concentrate on swimming in the front quadrant and keep a long, streamlined body line. You can progress to simply exchanging hands in the "passing zone" extended in front. We call this the "Ear Catch-Up" Drill, wherein you begin your pull as your opposite arm passes by your ear near the completion of the recovery. Edited by kinezo 2007-03-08 8:55 AM |
| 2007-03-08 9:08 AM in reply to: #715609 |
Champion 10471 Dallas, TX | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) Thanks for posting a VIDEO showing your stroke. It's so hard to give advice on swimming when you can't SEE what the person is doing. I come from a competitive swimming background... so I know generally speaking what a good stroke looks like... but it's hard for me to train someone on it. I have "ditto" what everyone said about your hands/crossing your center line. You basically need to keep your hands/arms from crossing over the center line of your body. I did notice that the further you went down the lane, the worse it got. Maybe it's a bad habit when fatigue sets in? If you are swimming like a "S" in the water, you know you are probably doing it. Beside that, it looks like you are bringing your head too far up when you breathe. It's hard to explain... but you need to tuck your chin back towards your shoulder. In a sense, you let your chin follow your arm back on the stroke. Also... I noticed your hands seemed rather limp... like they were just hanging out. Your hands are part of the stroke. Think of keeping your fingers together (a cupped hand pushes more), and having your hand slice into the water.... not just flop/enter in the water. Now, for the good stuff! Your seem to be high in the water, which is great. Your kick seems solid and you aren't wasting too much energy on it. You also did a great job of getting your elbows high and out of the water. Good luck! PS- I hope this made sense. I have a Nyquil hangover this morning. My head doesn't feel right. |
| 2007-03-08 3:07 PM in reply to: #715609 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) OK...got to watch the video. It looks like your swimming a catch-up drill. You aren't starting your pull until your recovering hand is nearly at peak extension in front of you. I know all about front quadrant swimming, but you should be initiating your catch as your recovering hand passes your ear. With both hands in front of you so much, you may be exerting a bit of torque on your shoulders. Try initiating your catch a bit earlier... |
| 2007-03-08 5:00 PM in reply to: #715609 |
Veteran 173 S.E Asia | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) Thanks for all the advice guys & gals Quite a few things to work on! I'll let you know how it all goes, though I think I won't be in the pool for at least another week or so. The shoulder's still sore. |
| 2007-03-08 8:52 PM in reply to: #715609 |
Expert 938 Haddam, CT | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) Two suggestions: Total Immersion's Freestyle Made Easy (DVD) and... flutterkick. You need to be gliding more, not stopping and starting so much. think small, quick flutter kicks from the hip, not the knee. |
| 2007-03-09 12:53 AM in reply to: #715609 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) I think overall your form is nice, certianly not a beginner form. Improvements for you will be fairly subtle, I think. Hard to say based only on this video, and possibly unrealted to your shoulder pain, BUT, a point to think about on your pull is "high elbows". High elbows does not refer to recover, but to the pull portion. Looking at the side view of the arm closest to the camera, your elbow comes in towards your mid-section, and then there is something that looks like your arm is collapsing underneath you and it emerges by your hip. I think what is happening is that you are letting your hand/forearm "slip" through teh water. Here is a decent article about "swimming over teh barrel". http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/swimcenter/barrel.html It took me a long time to figure this out and no matter how much I read about it, it wasn't until I had a hands on coach physically show me what to do. All it took was 30 seconds of his time, and now I know what to practice. It's one thing to KNOW what to do, and another to be able to FEEL the correct form. Again, hard to say from the vid, but just one more thing to think about. And your 2 beat kick is fine in general, but I agree it looks like you have some knee snapping going on. Focus on the movement being more from the hip. Sorry...that has nothing to do with your shoulder, but maybe indirectly by getting more propulsion from a nice kick you will have less torque on your shoulder. Last thing... the side lying abduction drill described above works only the supraspinatis muscle of the rotator cuff. There are four muscles that perform 3 actions: ABduction (movement of the arm to the side), Internal and external rotation. YOu need to work all three motions to hit all of your rotator cuff muscles. |
| 2007-03-09 2:28 AM in reply to: #716933 |
Veteran 173 S.E Asia | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) AdventureBear - 2007-03-09 1:53 PM I think overall your form is nice, certianly not a beginner form. Improvements for you will be fairly subtle, I think. Thanks for the tips AdventureBear, I've only been swimming since last July, so the above quote made my day!! |
| 2007-03-09 5:44 AM in reply to: #715609 |
Veteran 279 Tucson, AZ | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) It might also be an issue with your recovery. I wasn't able to watch the video, but I know this is a fairly common problem and it may or may not apply... From another forum (Link): As to technique, there's a very important aspect of the high elbow style that can be overlooked and then lead us to injury. For shoulder health a high elbow recovery needs to go hand in hand with good hip rotation. I've come to learn right here in this board that what's important is whether we break the coronal plane on recovery. "Coronal plane" is the plane that cuts through the shoulders and head and hips. If you stand back to the wall, the wall is the coronal plane. Breaking this plane when we swim is bad news. The source of many injuries. So, for illustration purposes imagine swimming perfectly flat but using a high elbow recovery. One would have to break the coronal plane with the elbow to accomplish the recovery. Another way to think of it is that you're arm would be "behind" you as you recover it. On the other hand, if we have good hip rotation we are on our sides when we recover our arm. For illustration assume you're all the way on your side, you could now recover your arm without breaking the coronal plane. |
| 2007-03-10 7:50 PM in reply to: #716961 |
Coach 9167 Stairway to Seven | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) Carl Carlson - 2007-03-09 4:44 AM It might also be an issue with your recovery. I wasn't able to watch the video, but I know this is a fairly common problem and it may or may not apply... From another forum (Link): As to technique, there's a very important aspect of the high elbow style that can be overlooked and then lead us to injury. For shoulder health a high elbow recovery needs to go hand in hand with good hip rotation. I've come to learn right here in this board that what's important is whether we break the coronal plane on recovery. "Coronal plane" is the plane that cuts through the shoulders and head and hips. If you stand back to the wall, the wall is the coronal plane. Breaking this plane when we swim is bad news. The source of many injuries. So, for illustration purposes imagine swimming perfectly flat but using a high elbow recovery. One would have to break the coronal plane with the elbow to accomplish the recovery. Another way to think of it is that you're arm would be "behind" you as you recover it. On the other hand, if we have good hip rotation we are on our sides when we recover our arm. For illustration assume you're all the way on your side, you could now recover your arm without breaking the coronal plane. Thanks for this link. I think making this exact change when I started doing TI is what stopped any progression of shoulder pain for me. Other TI improvements led to decreased neck & low back pain while swimming. |
| 2007-03-10 7:57 PM in reply to: #716933 |
Champion 8936 | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) Thank you. I've been meaning to comment on that several times and keep forgetting. AdventureBear - 2007-03-09 12:53 AMLast thing... the side lying abduction drill described above works only the supraspinatis muscle of the rotator cuff. There are four muscles that perform 3 actions: ABduction (movement of the arm to the side), Internal and external rotation. YOu need to work all three motions to hit all of your rotator cuff muscles. |
| 2007-03-10 9:26 PM in reply to: #715609 |
Coach 10487 Boston, MA | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) beside the good pointers Jim gave you, what I noticed from your kick is that you seem to kick AND bend your right knee hence your kick ends up wide and it might be slowing you down. (you only seem to do it with your right leg) |
| 2007-03-11 1:30 PM in reply to: #715609 |
| Mountain View, CA | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) I agree with the others who said mentioned your arms crossing the center line. It also looks like your arms are quite high out of the water on your recovery, which might be contributing to the problem. As someone who suffers from rotator cuff problems (and has had surgery on one side), here are some things that have worked for me: - Shoulder/hip rotation. This is key. The more you rotate your torso, the less impingement there will be in your shoulder. In my experience, the more I rotate, the less my shoulder hurts. - Don't increase your distance too quickly. I find that ramping up the yardage in the pool is guaranteed to cause problems. It's frustrating sometimes, but really do take it easy, and your shoulder(s) will thank you. - Do exercises with small weights and/or Thera-bands to strengthen the rest of your rotator cuff (like a previous commenter mentioned), and beware of exercises that have you pushing up weight directly over your head (e.g. shoulder press). - As far as general stroke goes, paddles like Strokemakers are good for correcting your form. I actually found that they help me keep my hand entry in the right place, too. Good luck! With some ice, ibu, and rotator cuff exercises, hopefully you'll be back in the pool soon. |
| 2007-03-11 2:13 PM in reply to: #718680 |
| Expert 936 Salisbury | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) DerekL - 2007-03-10 8:57 PM Thank you. I've been meaning to comment on that several times and keep forgetting. AdventureBear - 2007-03-09 12:53 AMLast thing... the side lying abduction drill described above works only the supraspinatis muscle of the rotator cuff. There are four muscles that perform 3 actions: ABduction (movement of the arm to the side), Internal and external rotation. YOu need to work all three motions to hit all of your rotator cuff muscles. Great advise here that'll help me too! What are some excercises for the entire rotator cuff? |
| 2007-03-11 8:48 PM in reply to: #718981 |
Master 1790 Tyler, TX | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) What are some excercises for the entire rotator cuff? Lots of good exercises on this link. Keep in mind that they are injury prevention exercises for the un-injured swimmer, not for the injured...
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| 2007-03-12 5:09 AM in reply to: #715609 |
Veteran 173 S.E Asia | Subject: RE: Swimmer's Shoulder- What's wrong with my stroke? (Video) Thanks for all the advice folks. I'll definitely be putting it to good use once I'm back in the water. It's been 10 days and the shoulder is feeling much better, but I'm going to leave it another week as I'm still having the odd twinge!
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