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Women Victims of Gendercide
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 2005-11-22 10:31 AM |
 Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC |  Subject: Women Victims of GendercideThere is a shortfall of some 200 million women in the world --"missing' due to what a three-year study on violence against women calls "gendercide."... Winkler told a news conference at the United Nations on Thursday that gender-related abortions and infanticides were the leading causes for the shortfall in the female population. Another factor was domestic violence, including so-called honor killings in some cultures. Gosh, how could anyone get upset about honor killings. After all, it's clear that if a woman is raped or caught in an adulterous relationship that she should be stoned. Especially with rape, she probably asked for it. So being guilty, of course she should be killed. Also, how could anyone get upset about someone "terminating a pregnancy" because the "product of conception" is female. I mean, how dare "the product of conception" be conceived as a female. What is this world coming to when people complain about such things? I think we should all mind our own business.  |
| 2005-11-22 10:53 AM in reply to: #290407 |
Giver  18427     | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide Seriously. Don, you should probably be stoned just for starting this thread. dontracy - 2005-11-22 10:31 AMThere is a shortfall of some 200 million women in the world --"missing' due to what a three-year study on violence against women calls "gendercide."... Winkler told a news conference at the United Nations on Thursday that gender-related abortions and infanticides were the leading causes for the shortfall in the female population. Another factor was domestic violence, including so-called honor killings in some cultures. Gosh, how could anyone get upset about honor killings. After all, it's clear that if a woman is raped or caught in an adulterous relationship that she should be stoned. Especially with rape, she probably asked for it. So being guilty, of course she should be killed. Also, how could anyone get upset about someone "terminating a pregnancy" because the "product of conception" is female. I mean, how dare "the product of conception" be conceived as a female. What is this world coming to when people complain about such things? I think we should all mind our own business. |
| 2005-11-22 11:10 AM in reply to: #290428 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide run4yrlif - 2005-11-22 11:53 AMSeriously. Don, you should probably be stoned just for starting this thread. LOL... I just couldn't think of one that had to do with alternative uses for food. |
| 2005-11-22 11:38 AM in reply to: #290441 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide Seriously, though, gendercide is taking place in the world. In China, we seem free to talk about the abusive worker conditions in some factories, but there is a near silence when it comes to China's one child policy which is disproportionately affecting entire generations of women. Also, there is a lot of silence about honor killings. Not sure why. |
| 2005-11-22 1:11 PM in reply to: #290407 |
Champion 5183 Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide and the sickest part? there are THOUSANDS of families here in the states and bajillions elsewhere who desperately want a child. But China won't allow us to adopt because we are, gasp, a happily married, dual incomed (lesbian) couple. And you know what advice has been gioven to me over and over again by well intentioned by clueless people? "Just lie, go over there and adopt by yourself." Yes, folks, to China, Vietnam, Korea, Kahzakstan, Nepal, India to name a few, it is better to be a single parent than a have 2 parents that happen to be of the same sex. I hate to always be so vocal about "my issues" but if even one person who reads this stuff learns more about the injustice and ignorance that GLBT people face, I'll feel better. And if one of you votes or takes action on behalf of this issue, I'd be eternally grateful. |
| 2005-11-22 1:21 PM in reply to: #290578 |
Master 2052 Colorado | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide possum - 2005-11-22 2:11 PM I hate to always be so vocal about "my issues" but if even one person who reads this stuff learns more about the injustice and ignorance that GLBT people face, I'll feel better. And if one of you votes or takes action on behalf of this issue, I'd be eternally grateful. No worries ...they aren't just "your" issues ... as a fellow human, I'm insulted at the injustice and ignorance as well. |
| 2005-11-22 1:27 PM in reply to: #290578 |
Queen BTich 12411 , | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide No, its not just your issue. Its eveyones too. It is horrible those countries only allow one child and not let deserving people like you and your partner adopt. I don't think issues like these should be silenced. possum - 2005-11-22 2:11 PM I hate to always be so vocal about "my issues" but if even one person who reads this stuff learns more about the injustice and ignorance that GLBT people face, I'll feel better. And if one of you votes or takes action on behalf of this issue, I'd be eternally grateful. |
| 2005-11-22 1:34 PM in reply to: #290592 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide TriComet - 2005-11-22 1:27 PM I don't think issues like these should be silenced. Me either, but I still think Don should be stoned. I think I should be stoned too. Wait. I think "stoned" may mean something different to me. Ahhh...see, I was thinking why wouldn't they want to get stoned? I mean, aside from a little paranoia and cravings for Doritos, I thought it was good. But seriously. I hate to make light of crap like this, but what else are you going to do? Oh wait...effect change and all. Thing is, this stuff has been going on since the dawn of time and while it's horrible and disgraceful and repugnant in the worst way, the pessimist in me says it'll probably never change. And it's freaking depressing. |
| 2005-11-22 1:39 PM in reply to: #290407 |
Champion 5183 Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide the optimist in me says it will. but a long time from now, after I'm dead, but that doesn't mean I'll stop trying. Snap out of it Jim! Make this world better for Nola's great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandchildren. |
| 2005-11-22 1:41 PM in reply to: #290603 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide Yeah...I know. But it's been a bad week. Optimistic Jim will return soon, though... possum - 2005-11-22 1:39 PMthe optimist in me says it will. but a long time from now, after I'm dead, but that doesn't mean I'll stop trying. Snap out of it Jim! Make this world better for Nola's great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandchildren. |
| 2005-11-22 2:00 PM in reply to: #290578 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide possum - 2005-11-22 2:11 PMand the sickest part? there are THOUSANDS of families here in the states and bajillions elsewhere who desperately want a child. But China won't allow us to adopt because we are, gasp, a happily married, dual incomed (lesbian) couple. And you know what advice has been gioven to me over and over again by well intentioned by clueless people? "Just lie, go over there and adopt by yourself." Hollis, plenty of my lesbian friends and neighbors have adopted girls from China. If the desire is to raise and love a child, then go take the advice of those clueless people. One concern I have with the GLBT movement is the near silence about things like the one child policy itself and the atrocities that occur because of it. I know of only one prolife GLBT organization. It does make one wonder if the GLBT movement really is about the expansion of true human freedom, or merely about the expansion of personal rights. Help ease my mind here, do you think that aborting girl children is morally wrong? |
| 2005-11-22 2:15 PM in reply to: #290578 |
Expert 760 Mt. Morris, IL | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide possum - 2005-11-22 12:11 PM and the sickest part? there are THOUSANDS of families here in the states and bajillions elsewhere who desperately want a child. But China won't allow us to adopt because we are, gasp, a happily married, dual incomed (lesbian) couple. And you know what advice has been gioven to me over and over again by well intentioned by clueless people? "Just lie, go over there and adopt by yourself." Yes, folks, to China, Vietnam, Korea, Kahzakstan, Nepal, India to name a few, it is better to be a single parent than a have 2 parents that happen to be of the same sex. My advisor in college had to do exactly that (lie and adopt without her partner). Her big issue was that they had been together since 1980, longer than the average hetero couple, both highly respected academics (biochemistry & philosophy) and able to provide a good home and they faced amazing resistance in attempting to adopt. |
| 2005-11-22 2:34 PM in reply to: #290578 |
Pro 4612 MA | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide possum - 2005-11-22 2:11 PM and the sickest part? there are THOUSANDS of families here in the states and bajillions elsewhere who desperately want a child. But China won't allow us to adopt because we are, gasp, a happily married, dual incomed (lesbian) couple. ..... They don't ALLOW you? What do they care? All they want is money. You've gotta pay certain fees to adopt a child. What's better than having some white-face people paying them money to take away their "baggage"? Sometimes I wonder, in 10 - 20 years, what will the Chinese guys do when they can't find girls to be their wives? You think the weternized, educated girls are going back to marry the spoiled, one-child lame guys? Maybe it's one way to take care of the problem of over-population. Sorry. I'm kind of irritated. |
| 2005-11-22 2:47 PM in reply to: #290629 |
Champion 5183 Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide dontracy - 2005-11-22 1:00 PM Hollis, plenty of my lesbian friends and neighbors have adopted girls from China. If the desire is to raise and love a child, then go take the advice of those clueless people. One concern I have with the GLBT movement is the near silence about things like the one child policy itself and the atrocities that occur because of it. I know of only one prolife GLBT organization. It does make one wonder if the GLBT movement really is about the expansion of true human freedom, or merely about the expansion of personal rights. Help ease my mind here, do you think that aborting girl children is morally wrong? 1) the clueless part is the suggestion that I lie about who I am and who we are. I know I could go get one on my own (or K could) but neither of us has the income on her own, nor do either of us want to spend time and money pretending to be "just a friend." We made a commitment to one another, and to God, and I don;t feel very good about starting a family with a lie. 2) Do I think aborting girl children is wrong. Are you kidding me? Do you think anyone would say NO to that question? I think aborting any child is wrong. To place more value on a human life because of its sexual organs is way way way wrong. But I think you and I differ on what we think of as a "child" and "human life." 3) The GLBT movement is huge, and diverse, and many of us are as disgusted and disgraced by many things. Call me selfish, but at the moment my energies in my movement are way more directed at what is happening here at home in terms of true human freedom, including my family's rights to adopt a child, have family leave policies, automatic inheritance, power of attorney, tax benefits (actually in taxes it would hurt us to be married legally, but we would be happy to pay more taxes to better feed clothe and address the human needs here and abroad) It's a political and a personal movement, and NO collective efforts of any group of people meet the values of all said people. As you have noted, there are GLBT Pro-Life groups. ( many local small groups as well as the one you highlighted.) But you're right the priority of the movement is not on China's one life policy. Neither is the Black Civil Rights movement, or Amnesty International or Greenpeace. You are faulting the GLBT movement for not being what YOU want it to be. |
| 2005-11-22 4:13 PM in reply to: #290675 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide possum - You are faulting the GLBT movement for not being what YOU want it to be. Point taken. I am at the point of emotionally supporting what the GLBT is propossing, and have been in support for twenty years, and in the process of working through the proposition reasonably. So help me here. The GLBT community is proposing to me as a citizen that I ought to support same sex marriage. Right now it is argued that there is a recognizable right for any two people who are not closely related to marry. If I've got that correct so far, then I have to assume that the right can somehow be found in some universal truth like natural law, or some other universally recognized truth. Otherwise, this is merely about power politics and whoever has the most votes gets their way whether their way is right or wrong. If you accept that then the next question I have, after looking exactly at the nature of the right, is when did this right come into existence for the person. Did it come into existence at the moment of conception or at some point afterward. It's true that no one need fight every fight. It seems, though, that the vast majority of the GLBT community supports abortion laws in the US. At this point you lose me. While we both agree that humans have a right to life and, in part, just disagree about when that point begins, with same sex marriage you are propossing an entirely new way of thinking about marriage. Problem is we have not established common ground in terms of what a right even is, where it comes from, and how we receive it. The fact that so few in the GLBT movement support a legal end to abortion tells me that we do not think about the nature of rights in the same way. I really would appreciate being pointed to a natural law arguement in favor of same sex marriage. I gotta think that someone has made that attempt. Hollis, I really would like it to be true. Edited by dontracy 2005-11-22 4:16 PM |
| 2005-11-22 4:48 PM in reply to: #290407 |
Champion 5183 Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide hmm. because "marriage" is not a natural law? It's a culturally informed, man made law, which, at its LEGAL inception, (not natural or divine) was about securing property and inheritance rights and making sure that men provide for their families. (yes, men support/feed/cloth women and children, women can own no property or vote or make legal decisions so her husband is her voice in the public sphere.) Now, marriage is useful (marriage the legal and cultural definintion) because it unifies 2 people legally, giving them the same public voice/name etc. It holds 2 people accountable to one another, responsbile to and for one another, and ostensibly is good for children born into such a defined relationship. I think both of us ascribe much deeper emotional and spiritual meanings in our respective marriages, meanings that go far behond the limits of man/culture/states power. I just want the law to protect my family the way it does yours. you are right-- abortion is not an issue that we, as a gay community spend a lot of time on. And if that fact makes it hard for you to support our desire for equal LEGAL rights among adult human beings, so be it, I guess. If the abortion issue is what decides a vote or an affiliation on your part, I guess you can't be expected to care or vote on behalf of GLBT people. I find that many of my values get compromised all the time as I try and sort out which candidate/organization I support, and I spend a lot of time justifying the least of many evils. Believe me, as a woman struggling with infertility, I loathe abortion. I would gladly raise someone else's child, I would even help pay medical expenses to see to it that the child and mother had good prenatal care. If you knew me, you would think it an incredible irony that I can't have kids given what I have worked my whole to do/be. As a Christian, I also struggle a lot with the racism and economic depravity that unwanted children are born into, and teh racism and economic depravity that forces women who are pregnanat to make very very hard decisions. But that is not the issue, and I am afraid I cannot give you th eanswer you need. |
| 2005-11-22 4:51 PM in reply to: #290726 |
Giver 18427 | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide If I've got that correct so far, then I have to assume that the right can somehow be found in some universal truth like natural law, There are many examples of same-sex pair bonding in nature. Google "lesbiansim" and "sea gulls", for one. |
| 2005-11-22 5:03 PM in reply to: #290747 |
Champion 5183 Wisconsin | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide run4yrlif - 2005-11-22 3:51 PM If I've got that correct so far, then I have to assume that the right can somehow be found in some universal truth like natural law, There are many examples of same-sex pair bonding in nature. Google "lesbiansim" and "sea gulls", for one. true. and a pair of mated for life male penguins have even raised surrogate egg! But that just supports the notion that same sex love is natrual across the animal kingdom. MARRIAGE, as we are discussing it, doesn't exist across the animal kingdom. So anti marriage rights activists who may be swayed by, at the very least, the idea that we gay humans are not "choosing" this "lifestyle" still do not feel obliged to extend marriage law to us. This minute, I am pouring a nice glass of wine for myself and for my wife who will walk through the door of the home we own together. As she walks through the door, the dogs will be jumping up and down like mad because they heard teh garage door open, and after she gives them quality time (roughhousing in the basement,) she will come up into the kitchen, kiss me, comment on how great dinner smells and then we will sit down, say some prayers, eat together and share our days. Happens every day, just like that. And not a day goes by that my heart doesn;t ache with gratitude for the people who love us and bless us. I hope people who are fortunate enough to be legally married also have this kind of bliss, and also never ever take for granted what a legal marriage means. I am getting kind of emotional here, now, I feel kinda silly. It's just that the holidays always rekindle my enormous love for her and for the life we are building. But even that doesn't excuse my hijack. sorry, don. |
| 2005-11-22 5:42 PM in reply to: #290753 |
| Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide possum - But even that doesn't excuse my hijack. sorry, don. No need to appologize. It's always intersting to see where threads go when they are conducted in a civil way. Plus, you bring up a really important subject. Just one thing about the definition of natural law. (It is not edit) I don't think it is correct that natural law is derived from observing the nature of the animal world. It's more about looking for those laws which are universally recognized across divergent times and cultures. Natural laws don't need to be taught, they seem to be understood without the imposition of a moral code. They are laws written on the human heart. It's a culturally informed, man made law, which, at its LEGAL inception, (not natural or divine) was about securing property and inheritance rights and making sure that men provide for their families. Now that's a really interesting point. Is marriage part of natural law or not. I know that from the beginning of the Judeo/Christian tradition, marriage was seen as a covenant, one that is an analog to the covenant between God and his people. So it'd be interesting to see what the meaning of covenant is in the Judeo/Christian tradition, and to look at whether the legal concept came from that divine understanding, or if it was the other way around. Edited by dontracy 2005-11-22 5:47 PM |
| 2005-11-22 6:21 PM in reply to: #290407 |
Master 1867 The real USC, in the ghetto of LA | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide What is actually intresting about the china issue, is that they dont feel having a female is as good as having a male. what they are doing though is creating a void that will SHIFT THE IMPORTANCE TO WOMEN. as there will be so few, they will be the one that make the decision to marry, giving them control. in china they are creating a void that will create a flip in power. extreames are never good. |
 2005-11-23 2:35 PM in reply to: #290407 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2005-11-24 10:37 PM in reply to: #290778 |
| Elite 2468 Racine, WI | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide dontracy - 2005-11-22 5:42 PM Now that's a really interesting point. Is marriage part of natural law or not. I know that from the beginning of the Judeo/Christian tradition, marriage was seen as a covenant, one that is an analog to the covenant between God and his people. So it'd be interesting to see what the meaning of covenant is in the Judeo/Christian tradition, and to look at whether the legal concept came from that divine understanding, or if it was the other way around. We've had this discussion in our church, and while "interesting" I don't know that the religious roots of marriage are pertinent. The LGBT community is lobbying for LEGAL upholding of same sex marriage. Separation of church and state, by definition, negates that argument entirely. I don't know that marriage as a part of natural law is all that pertinent either. There are plenty of issues legislated by our government that aren't "natural law"...For example, most of us unquestioningly accept that stealing is wrong and should be illegal. Yet there are cultures in which stealing is a perfectly acceptable means of survival. By your definition banning thievery is not natural law, yet we legislate it. Why should same sex marriage need to fall into that category to be legalized? Again, while it's interesting conversation, I don't think any of those points apply to the discussion at hand. I think a more important question would be "what purpose would legalizing/illegalizing same sex marriage serve"? I can think of plenty of instances where the good of many people would be served by legalizing same sex marriage. And while many individuals have strong beliefs in the wrongness of same sex marriages, there are very few scenarios that I can think of in which individuals' lives would actually be changed for the better if same sex marriage were to be outlawed. You were right when you called it a power play. Sadly, that's all it seems to be. |
| 2005-11-25 3:15 PM in reply to: #290802 |
| Champion 11641 Fairport, NY | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide tyrant - 2005-11-22 7:21 PM What is actually intresting about the china issue, is that they dont feel having a female is as good as having a male. what they are doing though is creating a void that will SHIFT THE IMPORTANCE TO WOMEN. as there will be so few, they will be the one that make the decision to marry, giving them control. in china they are creating a void that will create a flip in power. extreames are never good. I wouldn't expect this outcome at all. Rather than empowerment, I would expect this situation to result in the further commodification of women. |
| 2005-11-25 4:24 PM in reply to: #290407 |
| Expert 997 Littleton, CO | Subject: RE: Women Victims of Gendercide I don't have time to spew my many opinions, but wanted to send Possum my vote of confidence. Possum- I wish for you the same LEGAL standing that my husband and I share and cherish. I wish for you to be parents to children. (If I could give you an egg, I would!). Thank you for sharing so openly about your beliefs...both personal and spiritual. Melanie |
| 2005-11-25 4:49 PM in reply to: #292152 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
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